Traditionalist?

[The_Dead_Bishop]

I am , by God’s Grace, SSPX, but my " answer " in all honesty had to be " I love the Pope and I’m not schismatic." I believe, eventually, Rome’s " mind " will clear and She will get Her “spiritual eyes” back, and will lift all sanctions against SSPX.

 

[The_Dead_Bishop]

Catholic Eagle:

The Pope should of taken the Koran. Spit on it and ripped it apart. This is my opinion.

Faith, Hope and Charity…and the greatest of these is Charity.Peace be to you, C.E.

 

[mjdonnelly]

Iohannes:

The english vernacular stinks, they did not even translated it correctly.

Do the mass using original Greek then? I’m sure there were mistranslations in making up the Latin version.

 

[deogratias]

I think I asked you this before but you did not answer.

Since there is a valid and licit TLM in Seattle why do you go to SSPX?

 

[Guy]

I do not consider myself a traditionalist, but I do consider myself orthodox. I love JP2. I have fallen in love with the Catholic Church over the last 10 years. I am excited to see traditional devotions returning to Catholic practice sush as Eucharistic adoration, the scapular, and sisters wearing the habit (this is found among young Catholics!!!).
I am in the deacon formation program in our diocese. Sometimes I think I am the only on in my classes who is excited about this new zeal and reurn to orthodoxy.

 

[deogratias]

Guy - because installed Deacons without being a step towards the priesthood was not the “old way”, some may feel threatened - but I don’t think “going back” in every area is the answer but restoring what was good and beautiful, including reforming the liturgy and allowing the TLM in the interim.

Often you have heard the expression regarding Vatican II that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Well we still need to dispose of that bathwater but bring back the baby

 

[Guy]

deogratias:

Guy - because installed Deacons without being a step towards the priesthood was not the “old way”, some may feel threatened - but I don’t think “going back” in every area is the answer but restoring what was good and beautiful, including reforming the liturgy and allowing the TLM in the interim.

Often you have heard the expression regarding Vatican II that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Well we still need to dispose of that bathwater but bring back the baby

Excellent answer

Thanks

 

[Exporter]

I know God understands German, Japanese, Spanish, English and He understands Latin too. He understands wordless groanings of our heart.

I didn’t like it in the early 70s when I first heard the Mass in English. Today, I STILL DO NOT LIKE THE MASS SAID IN ENGLISH! I want the Tridentine Mass again.

The Bishops misunderstood Vatican II, they went overboard in allowing “changes”. The Pope didnt say for all the Masses to be said in the vernacular. No, he said if the occasion called for the vernacular then say the mass in the common language.

What’s the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people’s respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?

 

[Jason_Hurd]

Exporter:

What’s the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people’s respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?

Well, since you ask, no, you are not correct. You have allowed your fervent desire for the way things used to be to lead you into sweeping generalisations, which are never a good idea. I for one have the profoundest love and respect for what the Mass is, and can say I have never encountered another Catholic in my parish who lacks this respect. You do sound like an old wet towel, and I would suggest, as another poster has already done, that a little more prayer and a little less complaining would go far toward correcting the abuses under which we currently suffer.

 

[Exalt]

I answered: No, but Traditionalism is ok in some forms.
My position is this:

When you boil everything down, the purpose of the Mass is for Catholic to become closer to God. The Eucharist is front and center and the primary source of God’s grace, of course. However, there things about the mass that are intended to uplift one’s soul to the Eucharist and (therefore) God: the Church design, the readings, music, homilies, language, prayer, etc.

Different people become closer to God through different styles of these central elements. For some, praise and worship music does wonders. For others, traditional latin style prayer does the trick.

Of note: Orthodoxy is absolutely essential for worship. Total submission to Church teaching and the authority of the Bishops and the Pope are absolutely essential. Bad theology in music, or disobeying the Bishops’ commands, or homilies that don’t preach Church teaching have the potential to destroy spiritual lives. However, orthodoxy does NOT neccessarily mean quiet music with a cantor and organ in a mass said in Latin. Nor does it neccessarily mean upbeat music with drums and a guitar! These are preferences, not orthodoxy.

The point is that a good Parish includes having different worship styles for those who are positively affected by them, all the while maintaining true orthodoxy.

This is why I think that latin masses should be accessible to all, but so should Praise and Worship masses.

 

[deogratias]

Different people become closer to God through different styles of these central elements. For some, praise and worship music does wonders. For others, traditional latin style prayer does the trick

I agree so long as all forms are in keeping with the liturgical books which govern them.

 

[Agomemnon]

Exporter:

I know God understands German, Japanese, Spanish, English and He understands Latin too. He understands wordless groanings of our heart.

I didn’t like it in the early 70s when I first heard the Mass in English. Today, I STILL DO NOT LIKE THE MASS SAID IN ENGLISH! I want the Tridentine Mass again.

The Bishops misunderstood Vatican II, they went overboard in allowing “changes”. The Pope didnt say for all the Masses to be said in the vernacular. No, he said if the occasion called for the vernacular then say the mass in the common language.

What’s the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people’s respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?

I was born in 1970 and have grown up only the the post V2 liturgy and USA. And let me tell you…ITS NOT GOOD.

The amount of unauthorized changes, abuse, (can we say in some places outright heresy), dissent, institutionalized irreverence is just ridiculous. Will anything be left for my children??? If the angry followers of V2 were actually reading the documents than the Tridentine Liturgy would not have dissappeared. Perhaps they knew what they proposed was severely lacking

Restore the Old Mass. End the abuse. Excommunicate the heretics and return to orthodoxy.

 

[Exalt]

Agomemnon:

I was born in 1970 and have grown up only the the post V2 liturgy and USA. And let me tell you…ITS NOT GOOD.

The amount of unauthorized changes, abuse, (can we say in some places outright heresy), dissent, institutionalized irreverence is just ridiculous. Will anything be left for my children??? If the angry followers of V2 were actually reading the documents than the Tridentine Liturgy would not have dissappeared. Perhaps they knew what they proposed was severely lacking

Restore the Old Mass. End the abuse. Excommunicate the heretics and return to orthodoxy.

What makes you think that a return to the Latin-traditional style mass will end the abuses? It will simply change the rules and become an occasion for other abuses.

Exporter:

What’s the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people’s respect for what the Mass really is.

The purpose of worship is to move closer to God. Every Christian church has this goal. However, unlike our Protestant brethern, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. Other things included (like readings, homilies, prayers, and music) are intended to lift our souls to be ready to accept this gift and become closer to God (and further submit ourselves to God’s will). I don’t believe it is a failing of the mass, per se, for most parishes, but a failing of good faith formation and religious education. Many catholics don’t truly understand the simple truth that the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of our Lord (spiritually, emotionally, or mentally). The problem isn’t the music or the language or the priest facing towards the congregation. The problem is our congregation’s understanding of what the purpose of the mass is. While the mass itself can be a catechetical tool at times, faith formation outside of mass is absolutely critical.

What you don’t like are the liturgical abuses and unorthodox catholic lay persons and priests. Bringing back the old style mass isn’t going to help that. Rather, a deeper solution is needed: better faith formation.

I commend Catholic Answers for thier work. However, as Karl said (or was it Jimmy?) on one of the radio shows, if our parishes were doing thier jobs, we wouldn’t need Catholic Answers, and Karl and Jimmy would be out of a job.

 

[asquared]

I am for tradition if it means enshrining my tradition, and restoring everything to the way it was done at my home parish when I was in second grade. No one else’s tradition or memory of course has any value. I support the pope and bishop totally, until he says or does something I disagree with, then I am free to dissent. Of course when liberals do this they are heretics, when I do it I am orthodox.

 

[Cherub]

Nobody seems to like the new Mass in English. Not me either! I would never dream of going to a schismatic Mass of any kind, only to straigh-up, Vatican approved Mass will I go – but there is something holy, ancient, and pure that is just gone from the Church with this crazy, cheap plastic neon lit Mass in America. It almost seems sacrilegious, some of the ways I have seen, with terrible stomp and clap music, people behaving irreverently before the altar and carrying on like it is some variety show instead of Mass, well there are just too many things I have seen, too many places to even begin to name. Where is one who will champion the Church in America? What is the proper way to go about making our voices heard and begging to be restored to our ancient, beautiful Mass?

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Exalt:

What makes you think that a return to the Latin-traditional style mass will end the abuses? It will simply change the rules and become an occasion for other abuses.

The purpose of worship is to move closer to God. Every Christian church has this goal. However, unlike our Protestant brethern, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. Other things included (like readings, homilies, prayers, and music) are intended to lift our souls to be ready to accept this gift and become closer to God (and further submit ourselves to God’s will). I don’t believe it is a failing of the mass, per se, for most parishes, but a failing of good faith formation and religious education. Many catholics don’t truly understand the simple truth that the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of our Lord (spiritually, emotionally, or mentally). The problem isn’t the music or the language or the priest facing towards the congregation. The problem is our congregation’s understanding of what the purpose of the mass is. While the mass itself can be a catechetical tool at times, faith formation outside of mass is absolutely critical.

What you don’t like are the liturgical abuses and unorthodox catholic lay persons and priests. Bringing back the old style mass isn’t going to help that. Rather, a deeper solution is needed: better faith formation.

I commend Catholic Answers for thier work. However, as Karl said (or was it Jimmy?) on one of the radio shows, if our parishes were doing thier jobs, we wouldn’t need Catholic Answers, and Karl and Jimmy would be out of a job.

For those who would say that it’s really not the new liturgy itself that is an issue but rather the abuses I would like to refer them to this article, where Dietrich von Hildebrand attempts (and I believe, succeeds) to answer this question:

“I should like to put to those who are fostering this development several questions: Does the new mass, more than the old, bestir the human spirit – does it evoke a sense of eternity? Does it help raise our hearts from the concerns of everyday life – from the purely natural aspects of the world- to Christ? Does it increase reverence, an appreciation of the sacred?”

Obviously, it is a question which gets to the heart of the reform of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council. Please go here:


to read the entire article.

God bless.

 

[Exalt]

Brennan Doherty:

For those who would say that it’s really not the new liturgy itself that is an issue but rather the abuses I would like to refer them to this article, where Dietrich von Hildebrand attempts (and I believe, succeeds) to answer this question:

“I should like to put to those who are fostering this development several questions: Does the new mass, more than the old, bestir the human spirit – does it evoke a sense of eternity? Does it help raise our hearts from the concerns of everyday life – from the purely natural aspects of the world- to Christ? Does it increase reverence, an appreciation of the sacred?”

Obviously, it is a question which gets to the heart of the reform of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council. Please go here:


to read the entire article.

God bless.

I didn’t say that abuses alone were the real problem. Poor Catechesis and Religious Education is the real problem. Lirtugical Abuse is one of the symtoms.

I don’t like to post responses to articles. They take a long time to read, and others have a hard time following the dialouge when one or two of the participants is referencing to something not in print on this page. For this reason, I will only respond to what you have quoted. To answer Dietrich von Hildebrand: “It’s relative.” One man may find the Latin mass and gregorian chant uplifting. Many don’t. I agree that Tridentine rite masses should be available. But I don’t think we should completely and totally return to that mass and exclude vernacular, upbeat-music, or teen and children’s masses.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Exalt:

I didn’t say that abuses alone were the real problem. Poor Catechesis and Religious Education is the real problem. Lirtugical Abuse is one of the symtoms.

I don’t like to post responses to articles. They take a long time to read, and others have a hard time following the dialouge when one or two of the participants is referencing to something not in print on this page. For this reason, I will only respond to what you have quoted. To answer Dietrich von Hildebrand: “It’s relative.” One man may find the Latin mass and gregorian chant uplifting. Many don’t. I agree that Tridentine rite masses should be available. But I don’t think we should completely and totally return to that mass and exclude vernacular, upbeat-music, or teen and children’s masses.

Exalt, that is fine not to post a response to the article, my hope in linking it is that anyone who is concerned with the liturgy will read it as I think it is intelligent, well thought out, and quite good.

I agree that poor catechesis and religious education are a serious problem. One of the reasons I refer people to writing by Dietrich von Hildebrand is that reading him is like receiving a type of catechesis in Catholic thought in that he is orthodox and seems as if he has thought through a number of issues on a much deeper level than say I have. I suppose that might be one reason Pope Pius XII called him a “20th Century Doctor of the Church.”

I also agree that people have different preferences when it comes to liturgy and music. Yet where I perhaps disagree is that even though people may have different preferences, these different preferences will most likely have different effects on the soul.

Thus, to use an example, some people would perhaps prefer reading romance novels or comic books as part of their education, yet good educators will insist that they read great literature such as Shakespeare as they realize certain types of literature will form the intellect better than others, regardless of personal preference.

And to use an exaggerated example, hard rock music will have a different effect on the soul than classical music regardless of individual preferences. The same would go for pop music versus Gregorian chant. After all, the Second Vatican Council did call for Gregorian chant to have pride of place in the liturgy and I suspect they did this for a reason.

Thus, just as in education and in music, two substantively different liturgies, the old liturgy and the new, will have differing effects on the souls of people regardless of what they might prefer.

God bless.

 

[Exalt]

Thus, just as in education and in music, two substantively different liturgies, the old liturgy and the new, will have differing effects on the souls of people regardless of what they might prefer.

For the most part, I disagree. All things being equal, the old mass and the new mass should produce a better, closer relationship with God. However, all things are* not* equal, and people have differing preferences as to what type of liturgy brings about that closness better. For this reason, I believe that different types of liturgy should be available to all.

Going back to your metaphor, a good rocker should have an appreciation and understanding of classical music. No sane musican would say classical music should be prohibited or rock music should be outlawed. Similiarly, someone who particularly enjoys the Latin mass should have an apperciation and understanding of other types of legitimate liturgy, and shouldn’t try and prohibit the celebration of other types of masses.

However, there are limitations, of course. As I have maintained earlier, orthodoxy (that is, total submission to the will of God - which includes obiedience to the Bishops) is absolutely essential. That means that bad music, untruthful homilies, etc, should not become part of the liturgy. We look to our Bishops for guidance as to what is “right worship” (aka: Orthodoxy) and what is not. For the folk style praise-and-worship mass, the Bishops, for the most part, have been supportive. The same is true of the orthodox Teen mass. Thankfully, Latin masses are appearing again as well.

With love,
Exalt.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Exalt:

For the most part, I disagree. All things being equal, the old mass and the new mass should produce a better, closer relationship with God. However, all things are* not* equal, and people have differing preferences as to what type of liturgy brings about that closness better. For this reason, I believe that different types of liturgy should be available to all.

Going back to your metaphor, a good rocker should have an appreciation and understanding of classical music. No sane musican would say classical music should be prohibited or rock music should be outlawed. Similiarly, someone who particularly enjoys the Latin mass should have an apperciation and understanding of other types of legitimate liturgy, and shouldn’t try and prohibit the celebration of other types of masses.

However, there are limitations, of course. As I have maintained earlier, orthodoxy (that is, total submission to the will of God - which includes obiedience to the Bishops) is absolutely essential. That means that bad music, untruthful homilies, etc, should not become part of the liturgy. We look to our Bishops for guidance as to what is “right worship” (aka: Orthodoxy) and what is not. For the folk style praise-and-worship mass, the Bishops, for the most part, have been supportive. The same is true of the orthodox Teen mass. Thankfully, Latin masses are appearing again as well.

I would reply that different music has different purposes because it produces different effects on people. Thus before troops go into battle they will be hearing martial music to get them geared up even if a soldier protests that they like to listen to Barry Manilow before going into battle. Also, if the goal of the liturgy is to lift one’s heart and mind to God, to an encounter with Christ, some music is simply better for that than others. Thus Gregorian chant is better for producing a reverent, transcendent atmosphere than pop music, if a reverent, transcendent atmosphere is what one hopefully desires at Mass.

Further, and even more importantly, the old and new liturgies will produce different effects as they are different. They have different prayers, a different form, different gestures, and a different orientation. Almost anyone I have read on the liturgy will say that the new liturgy produces a more “horizontal” atmosphere where the focus is more on the people while the old liturgy produced a more “vertical” atmosphere where the focus was upward towards God.