Traditionalists not attending Novus Ordo

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MTD said:
No, because, if I’m not mistaken, St. Pius V was talking about the Tridentine Rite, not all rites. Surely he wasn’t saying that the words of consecration in the Eastern rites are invalid because they don’t follow the exact formula of the Roman Rite. Do you see what I mean?

Maria
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Well, a little. I thought we were talking about the Roman Rite. Besides, what RITE of the East, South, North avoids “For many”?​

Now for those who still hold that all that is needed is “This is my Body/Blood.”
That really has been kinda suspended since July 20th, 2001:
As Follows:
Guidelines For Admission To The Eucharist Between The Chaldean Church And The Assyrian Church Of The East

In Part:
The principal issue for the Catholic Church in agreeing to this request, related to the question of the validity of the Eucharist celebrated with the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, one of the three Anaphoras traditionally used by the Assyrian Church of the East. The Anaphora of Addai and Mari is notable because, from time immemorial, it has been used without a recitation of the institution Narrative. As the Catholic Church considers the words of the Eucharistic Institution a constitutive and therefore indispensable part of the Anaphora or Eucharistic Prayer,…
Finally, the words of Eucharistic Institution are indeed present in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, not in a coherent narrative way and ad litteram, but rather in a dispersed euchological way, that is, integrated in successive prayers of thanksgiving, praise and intercession…
the following provision is made:
  1. When necessity requires, … Chaldean faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, are permitted to participate and to receive Holy Communion in an Assyrian celebration of the Holy Eucharist.
It has gotten down to “If you believe in the Real Presence the literal form is superfluous” and can be inserted just about anywhere in the Mass.

Reference
 
paramedicgirl said:
If I were to use this logic, (even though I love the TLM and find the NO Mas an empty shell of the real thing), then I would never get to Mass at all. Please remember that many of us, especially in rural Canada, have no access whatsoever to a TLM or even a reverent NO. We go the the only NO in town, or we don’t go to Mass at all. Ever.

Not a good compromise. I’ll take a less than reverent NO Mass over no Mass at all. I want to fulfill my Sunday obligation out of love for God.
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“out of love for God”
M O V E South til ya cross a river calledTrinity. Then Dial 1-800-I-am-free.
 
TNT said:
Well, a little. I thought we were talking about the Roman Rite. Besides, what RITE of the East, South, North avoids “For many”?
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Yes, we were talking about the Roman Rite. However, the Roman Rite of St. Pius V’s day is not the same as the one of our day, and I was only pointing out that his words were directed at his Roman Rite and cannot be applied to ours. I merely used the Eastern rites as proof that his words do not apply universally to all rites.

Maria
 
I can appreciate the love that the Tradionalists have for the Tridentine liturgy. It is incredibly reverent and beautiful. The Novus Ordo, be it in the vernacular or in Latin is equally beautiful and reverent. We must guard against purporting to be holier than the Church. What truly matters about the Mass is the sacrifice of our Lord. We should never forget that this is the reason we celebrate Mass.
 
lux_mundi said:
… What truly matters about the Mass is the sacrifice of our Lord. We should never forget that this is the reason we celebrate Mass.
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Isn’t that the point…it’s so much easier to “forget” at the NO Mass (where the very word **sacrifice **is pretty well vacuumed out) than the TL Mass.
ps.
vacuumed is Canadian fer sucked
 
TNT said:
Isn’t that the point…it’s so much easier to “forget” at the NO Mass (where the very word **sacrifice **is pretty well vacuumed out) than the TL Mass.
ps.
vacuumed is Canadian fer sucked
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😃 That pretty much sums up many of the Canadian NO Masses I’ve been to. Unfortunately…
 
lux_mundi said:
I can appreciate the love that the Tradionalists have for the Tridentine liturgy. It is incredibly reverent and beautiful. The Novus Ordo, be it in the vernacular or in Latin is equally beautiful and reverent. We must guard against purporting to be holier than the Church. What truly matters about the Mass is the sacrifice of our Lord. We should never forget that this is the reason we celebrate Mass.
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You mean* some* of the Novus Ordo Masses are equally beautiful and reverent, don’t you? Most of the NO Masses I go to are tolerable, but clearly not reverent in the same way the TLM is.
 
lux_mundi said:
It is incredibly reverent and beautiful. The Novus Ordo, be it in the vernacular or in Latin is equally beautiful and reverent.
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I must say that I disagree with you about the vernacular of the NO being equally beautiful and reverent compared to the TLM. The reason is because the current English vernacular is not even accurate to the Latin. (I suppose a perfect example is the pro multis we were just talking about.) However, that will be changed within the next few years when we will have a more accurate, and thus more beautiful, vernacular.
TNT said:
Isn’t that the point…it’s so much easier to “forget” at the NO Mass (where the very word **sacrifice **is pretty well vacuumed out) than the TL Mass.
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I know this really is beside the point, but I’ve sometimes wondered how often the word sacrifice was used in the first Masses. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not supporting the absence of that word in the Mass. I’m just pointing out that just because that word isn’t used as frequently in the NO doesn’t automatically mean the NO isn’t as good as the TLM.

Maria
 
Do not forget about the devastating changes and almost wholesale destruction of the prayers of the propers of the Mass. The almost complete omission of references to hell, purgatory, souls of the departed, the wages of sin…all of the so-called “negative theology”. Also axed were detachment from the world, prayers for the departed, merits of the Saints, and miracles.
 
gorman64 said:
Also axed were detachment from the world, prayers for the departed, merits of the Saints, and miracles.
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You’re talking in general, right? Off the top of my head, I can remember references to the merits of the saints (“May their merits and prayers gain us Your constant help and protection”) and prayers for the departed (“Remember, Lord, those who have died and have gone before us marked with the sign of faith, especially those for whom we now pray…May these and all who sleep in Christ find in Your presence light, happiness, and peace”) in Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon).

Maria
 
MTD said:
You’re talking in general, right? Off the top of my head, I can remember references to the merits of the saints (“May their merits and prayers gain us your constant help and protection”) and prayers for the departed (“Remember, Lord, those who have died and have gone before us marked with the sign of faith, especially those for whom we now pray…May these and all who sleep in Christ find in Your presence light, happiness, and peace”) in Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon).
Maria
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I heard E-1 only once in 3yrs (of DAILY Mass), after I remarked to someone that it was never said and it got back to the pastor. The next week it was back to E-2.
 
MTD said:
However, that will be changed within the next few years when we will have a more accurate, and thus more beautiful, vernacular.
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I don’t believe anything will change no matter how far the Vatican bends over. I’ve come to believe that the Latin “Catholics” will never be happy unless there is only a Latin mass.

Following one document after another is exhausting, and pretty worthless. Whenever someone is close to admitting to being mistaken, they just point to another tome and claim I have to read it.

So I’ve turned to looking at the fruits to judge the tree. How many vocations does the Latin parish have? What acts of charity do they perform? How many conversions do they have? How do they get along with each other. How do they get along with other parishes. Are they repulsed or attracted to opportunities of sacramental grace? These are outward signs of the inward grace, right? I’ve not been impressed.

To the original poster, you should find another girlfriend. You don’t need this battle being fought within your own home. Search after someone who will strengthen you in your faith and bring peace and grace to your home.
 
Vanessa said:
I don’t believe anything will change no matter how far the Vatican bends over. I’ve come to believe that the Latin “Catholics” will never be happy unless there is only a Latin mass.
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Oh, I wasn’t saying that Traditionalists will like the NO better when the vernacular is improved. They like the TLM. Period. They don’t even want the Latin NO.

I was just saying that the vernacular as it now stands leaves something to be desired and that it’s going to be improved in the near future. This will please Conservatives but will probably not affect Traditionalists.
Vanessa said:
How many vocations does the Latin parish have?
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This is not really what you were talking about, but I find it fascinating that some of the fastest growing communities of sisters in the USA are conservative NO communities, such as the Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration, the Dominican Sisters of Mary, and the Nashville Dominicans. And these are communities with newly built convents/chapels!

Maria
 
MTD said:
No, because, if I’m not mistaken, St. Pius V was talking about the Tridentine Rite, not all rites. Surely he wasn’t saying that the words of consecration in the Eastern rites are invalid because they don’t follow the exact formula of the Roman Rite. Do you see what I mean?

Maria
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I got it. I see your point. There is an on-going and constant error of extracting quotes from a different time without proper context, especially historical context. I doubt seriously if no one else but traditionalist have read Pius V. I have always been impressed by the intelligence and depth of our Cardinals and Popes. Yet they do not believe the Mass to be invalid. I have to humbly bow to the superior education and authority of those better read than me.
 
MTD said:
I must say that I disagree with you about the vernacular of the NO being equally beautiful and reverent compared to the TLM. The reason is because the current English vernacular is not even accurate to the Latin. (I suppose a perfect example is the pro multis we were just talking about.) However, that will be changed within the next few years when we will have a more accurate, and thus more beautiful, vernacular.

I know this really is beside the point, but I’ve sometimes wondered how often the word sacrifice was used in the first Masses. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not supporting the absence of that word in the Mass. I’m just pointing out that just because that word isn’t used as frequently in the NO doesn’t automatically mean the NO isn’t as good as the TLM.

Maria
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I agree with you that there are some weaknesses in the English translation. The English translation nearly obfuscates the fact that when we are kneeling before our Risen Lord before communion we are echoing the words of the Roman centurion before Jesus. This is going to be corrected in the updated translation.

Our Catholic faith boils down to a dead man on a cross. If we approach the celebration of the Mass with this as our focus then the result will always be a beautiful and reverent celebration.

The first celebrations of the Eucharist were not in Latin, but Greek. Latin came in to use centuries later when it was the vernacular in Western Christendom.
 
Surely he wasn’t saying that the words of consecration in the Eastern rites are invalid because they don’t follow the exact formula of the Roman Rite.
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I think it it difficult to argue that the Roman Rite can possibly not follow the exact formula for the Roman Rite and be valid. You really should read De Defectibus, which was found in the front of all altar missals up until the Vatican II “reforms”.
“The words of Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are these: For this is my Body. And: For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament: the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins. Now if one were to omit, or to change anything in the form of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of the words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the Sacrament. If in fact he were to add something that did not change the meaning, it is true he would consecrate, but he would sin most gravely.”
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bear06 said:
So you skip a valid Mass and don’t go at all? Have I got that right?:confused:
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Like i said i will only attend a TLM or eastern catholic and i have not had any trouble finding those

( Maybe i need to go on vacation more 😉 )
 
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