Traditionalists not attending Novus Ordo

[guanophore]

Unfortunately there are not enough Tridentine Masses around to keep all traditionalists happy and this is a real problem, whether you accept the Novus Ordo as valid or not.

But as long as you’re on the Latin Novus Ordo, the words of consecration are actually different than they are in English or many other languages. I myself have no problem accepting the validity of the Latin Novus Ordo (or even the Polish) Novus Ordo but I admit I do have a serious problem with the English Novus Ordo. Pray for me all you want but Christ did NOT use the words “for all” when He consecrated the bread and wine.

What do YOU think He said? I personally would not presume, not having been present, but I am curious.

 

[devotus]

What do YOU think He said? I personally would not presume, not having been present, but I am curious.

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:28
hic est enim sanguis meus novi testamenti qui **pro multis **effunditur in remissionem peccatorum
Latin Vulgate

 

[parvenu74]

A point I’ve not seen raised on this thread yet is the affect of the NOM on the Faith of someone who has never been to anything but the TLM. While I was in the US Navy (just under five years), there were some Sundays where the only options were the new Mass or no Mass – and I chose no Mass. I’ve only seen part of one NOM; I became physically sick and for the rest of the day was on the verge of tears and wondering “How could this have happened to the Church? Is the Holy Ghost no longer guiding us?”

The point is this: if going to the NOM causes me to question my Faith, then I am bound not to attend it because we NEVER have the right to do something which we know will diminish our Faith. This is why I don’t go to the NOM. I am curious if the other trads on this forum see it this way or are hung up on the (mis?)translation of the consecration.

 

[MTD]

I think it it difficult to argue that the Roman Rite can possibly not follow the exact formula for the Roman Rite and be valid. You really should read De Defectibus, which was found in the front of all altar missals up until the Vatican II “reforms”.

But as I already noted in an earlier post, the current Roman Rite is not the same as the Roman Rite of St. Pius V’s day. Traditionalists are the first to say that the NO is not an organic development of the traditional Roman Rite and yet too many of them want to hold the new rite to the rules of the old. There’s really no getting around the fact that St. Pius V was talking about the Tridentine Rite, not other rites (since that would include Eastern rites, about which he was obviously not talking). And since the new rite is not the same as the Tridentine Rite, and for that matter, not even an organic development of the Tridentine Rite, it follows that his words cannot be applied to our current Roman Rite.

I hope this is a clearer explanation.

Maria

 

[bear06]

Like i said i will only attend a TLM or eastern catholic and i have not had any trouble finding those

( Maybe i need to go on vacation more )

Maybe you do! I can guarantee you that there are many places, at least in non-suburbia, that have neither so I’m still waiting to hear what you’d do in those circumstances?

 

[Manfred]

Isn’t that the point…it’s so much easier to “forget” at the NO Mass (where the very word **sacrifice **is pretty well vacuumed out) than the TL Mass.

By far, the least inspiring of all the Eucharistic Prayers is the Second, “Lord, You are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness…”, for there the word “sacrifice” is not present, at least in the English (don’t have the Latin text for it). Sadly, many priests in parishes in my area just LOVE it for its brevity.

What I do: I have my Magnificat booklet and read EP I (the “Roman Canon”) throughout the year, except during Advent, when I use Prayer IV, because of its extremely rich spiritual allusions. Despite the so-so English rendering of all the EPs, EP I does have the proper “Communicantes” and “Hanc Igitur” for certain solemnities (i.e., Easter, Pentecost); no other EP does.

Is what I choose to do “praying the Mass” with the priest? Probably not, but, if I had my way, I’d also toss the Lectionary based on the RNAB, but that’s been discussed elsewhere.

 

[bear06]

A point I’ve not seen raised on this thread yet is the affect of the NOM on the Faith of someone who has never been to anything but the TLM. While I was in the US Navy (just under five years), there were some Sundays where the only options were the new Mass or no Mass – and I chose no Mass. I’ve only seen part of one NOM; I became physically sick and for the rest of the day was on the verge of tears and wondering “How could this have happened to the Church? Is the Holy Ghost no longer guiding us?”

The point is this: if going to the NOM causes me to question my Faith, then I am bound not to attend it because we NEVER have the right to do something which we know will diminish our Faith. This is why I don’t go to the NOM. I am curious if the other trads on this forum see it this way or are hung up on the (mis?)translation of the consecration.

Here we go again. Does this mean if none are availabe to you you will not attend? Also, please show me the teaching that validates this in regards to our Sunday obligation? It would seem that this statement is a little ironic since not fulfilling a Sunday obligation (if this is the course you would take to NEVER go to a Novus Ordo) would be doing just what you are saying that you are trying to avoid. Becasue a Mass makes us “physically sick”, if it’s valid and our only option, our Sunday obligation is not dispensed.

then I am bound not to attend it because we NEVER have the right to do something which we know will diminish our Faith.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Maybe you do! I can guarantee you that there are many places, at least in non-suburbia, that have neither so I’m still waiting to hear what you’d do in those circumstances?

That’s my dilemma, and I know what I do. I go to the only Mass available, even though it’s certainly not what I would be attending if I had the choices that so many of you have. Here, it’s NO or nothing at all. At least we are not a mission church. Yet.

 

[MarSarkees]

A point I’ve not seen raised on this thread yet is the affect of the NOM on the Faith of someone who has never been to anything but the TLM. While I was in the US Navy (just under five years), there were some Sundays where the only options were the new Mass or no Mass – and I chose no Mass. I’ve only seen part of one NOM; I became physically sick and for the rest of the day was on the verge of tears and wondering “How could this have happened to the Church? Is the Holy Ghost no longer guiding us?”

The point is this: if going to the NOM causes me to question my Faith, then I am bound not to attend it because we NEVER have the right to do something which we know will diminish our Faith. This is why I don’t go to the NOM. I am curious if the other trads on this forum see it this way or are hung up on the (mis?)translation of the consecration.

Thats funny you bring this up. I have a friend who, along with her entire family (11 kids), were brought up SSPX. She was telling me about a Novus Ordo baptism and Mass she was forced to attend. It all sounded very typical to me, but she was truly scandalized, I mean to the point she was in almost physical disgust.

 

[TNT]

Bear06 Wrote:

Here we go again. Does this mean if none are availabe to you you will not attend? Also, please show me the teaching that validates this in regards to our Sunday obligation? It would seem that this statement is a little ironic since not fulfilling a Sunday obligation (if this is the course you would take to NEVER go to a Novus Ordo) would be doing just what you are saying that you are trying to avoid. Becasue a Mass makes us “physically sick”, if it’s valid and our only option, our Sunday obligation is not dispensed.

I know you have heard of “MORALLY” impossible. It’s all over the threads about the SSPX, EO, Assyrian Mass approvals.
My best quess is that’s what the poster is confronted with.
As VATII says, you may NOT violate the primacy of your conscience…even if it’s ill formed…OR be externally compelled by ANYONE to do so.

 

[gorman64]

But as I already noted in an earlier post, the current Roman Rite is not the same as the Roman Rite of St. Pius V’s day. Traditionalists are the first to say that the NO is not an organic development of the traditional Roman Rite and yet too many of them want to hold the new rite to the rules of the old. There’s really no getting around the fact that St. Pius V was talking about the Tridentine Rite, not other rites (since that would include Eastern rites, about which he was obviously not talking). And since the new rite is not the same as the Tridentine Rite, and for that matter, not even an organic development of the Tridentine Rite, it follows that his words cannot be applied to our current Roman Rite.

I hope this is a clearer explanation.

Maria:

De Defectibus was in every legitimate altar missal up to Vatican II. It was contained in the missal of Pius X. Was Pius V referring to the Pius X rite that was yet to exist? Impossible, right? But yes, it was essentially the same rite.

How can the Novus Ordo be a completely new (not a development) of the roman rite? Have there been any other new rites created since Pius V?

I also realise I could be completely missing your point here.

Gorman

 

[bear06]

Bear06 Wrote:
I know you have heard of “MORALLY” impossible. It’s all over the threads about the SSPX, EO, Assyrian Mass approvals.
My best quess is that’s what the poster is confronted with.
As VATII says, you may NOT violate the primacy of your conscience…even if it’s ill formed…OR be externally compelled by ANYONE to do so.

Links T, links!

 

[devotus]

Maybe you do! I can guarantee you that there are many places, at least in non-suburbia, that have neither so I’m still waiting to hear what you’d do in those circumstances?

I have no problem going to a Reverent / God Focused N.O. ( if TLM or Eastern Catholic is not avail. ) – If it was recommended to me before I go and bring my kids there.

I would most likely stay home ( or go Orthodox ??) rather than “guess” on the local NO… I have been burned in the past just showing up at a local Parish and not knowing what to expect. Last Time i just showed up the priest started the “mass” in the “name of the creator, the redeemer, and the sanctifier” + they had seating that had their backs to the tabernacle.

 

[bear06]

I have no problem going to a Reverent / God Focused N.O. ( if TLM or Eastern Catholic is not avail. ) – If it was recommended to me before I go and bring my kids there.

I would most likely stay home ( or go Orthodox ??) rather than “guess” on the local NO… I have been burned in the past just showing up at a local Parish and not knowing what to expect. Last Time i just showed up the priest started the “mass” in the “name of the creator, the redeemer, and the sanctifier” + they had seating that had their backs to the tabernacle.

Sorry you have a bad experience but I think it’s crazy not to make an attempt for Our Lord. It can take a lot or very little to invalidate a Mass. Valid Mass is better than no Mass. We are not told to go if it doesn’t offend our senses. We are dispense from our obligation if the Mass is horrific. We are dispensed if there is not valid Mass to attend. Not knowing before probably doesn’t count for dispensation. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[devotus]

Sorry you have a bad experience but I think it’s crazy not to make an attempt for Our Lord. It can take a lot or very little to invalidate a Mass. Valid Mass is better than no Mass. We are not told to go if it doesn’t offend our senses. We are dispense from our obligation if the Mass is horrific. We are dispensed if there is not valid Mass to attend. Not knowing before probably doesn’t count for dispensation. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Thanks but I would rather error on the side of caution. God knows that I am doing the right thing in my Heart. I do not let my kids attend our Eucharistic congress… They have dancing girls during the Mass jumping around 1/2 naked… Its scandalous… Very Dangerous to the faith.

 

[bear06]

Thanks but I would rather error on the side of caution. God knows that I am doing the right thing in my Heart. I do not let my kids attend our Eucharistic congress… They have dancing girls during the Mass jumping around 1/2 naked… Its scandalous… Very Dangerous to the faith.

The point is that you are not erring on the side of caution which would be to go to the Mass assuming that you will fulfill you Sunday obligation there. What you are doing is assuming that the chance that it might not be a valid Mass trumps your Sunday obligation. A Eucharistic congress does not have an obligation to attend attached to it - Sunday Mass does.

 

[elzoro]

I know of some very well-known Neo-Con’s who told me when altar girls was first approved, told me they would NOT go to a NO Mass with altar girls. I concurred. But the sickening and sacriligious elements in the APPROVED NO Mass goes on ad infinitum. I will not worship at a NO because it does not represent what I beleive…it ruins my faith and the faith of whoever I bring to it (or brought) Call me wehatever but I aon’t going under any circumstance

 

[bear06]

I know of some very well-known Neo-Con’s who told me when altar girls was first approved, told me they would NOT go to a NO Mass with altar girls. I concurred. But the sickening and sacriligious elements in the APPROVED NO Mass goes on ad infinitum. I will not worship at a NO because it does not represent what I beleive…it ruins my faith and the faith of whoever I bring to it (or brought) Call me wehatever but I aon’t going under any circumstance

I don’t really care who it is. How do altar girls at a Mass ruin your faith? I am not an altar girl fan but I can’t remember once being at a Mass where they ruined my faith. Kind of dramatic don’t you think?

It’s ridiculous to think that the Real Presence can’t triumph over all of these things. Sitting wherever when one can fullfill their Sunday obligation is wrong. If Our Lord is there, why can’t you be? Are you somehow better than He? Unless you are saying these are invalid Mass with an invalid Eucharist, I’m not sure what your excuse is.

 

[Caesar]

While the NO can fullfill your Sunday obligation, it should be avoided whenever possible.

 

[TNT]

Links T, links!

Primacy of conscience was HUGE in VAT II
Here:
** Declaration on Religious Liberty
Dignitatis Humane (7 December, 1965)
3.
…
**

It is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of the divine law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God, who is his last end. Therefore he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. **Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters. **The reason is because the practice of religion of its very nature consists primarily of those voluntary and free internal acts by which a man directs himself to God. Acts of this kind cannot be commanded or forbidden by any merely human authority.

…
At the same time, however, they [the Apostles] showed respect for the weak even though they were in error, and in this way made it clear how “each of us shall give an account of himself to God” (Rom. 14:12) and **for that reason is bound to obey his conscience. **

** Gaudium et Spes (7 December, 1965)
**

1. . . . At the same time, however, there is a growing awareness of the sublime dignity of the human person, who stands above all things and whose rights and duties are universal and inviolable. He ought, therefore, to have ready access to all that is necessary for living a genuinely human life: for example, food, clothing, housing, the right freely to choose his state of life and set up a family, the right to education, work, to his good name, to respect, to proper knowledge, the right to act according to the dictates of conscience and to safeguard his privacy, and rightful freedom even in matters of religion.

There’s more… I’m outa space.