Trads and the Charismatic "Renewal."

[gracepoole]

It would be wonderful if our CAF member who was an original at that university in 1969, was able to join in some of these discussions, This persons account of what happened there is truly something to read.

Why not just tag the person directly?

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I would disagree it’s the most visible sign of God at work.
We are discussing Catholics, not Methodists. Not Protestant reformers. This is a great error that seems prevalent in the states in the CCM and gives it’s detractors ammo and those circus ponies in it as greed er s, profits.

If this person is around and wants to contribute to discussions, they will.

St Augustine was around quite some time before the 1960s.

Surely you have been witness to a person not being prayed over and speaking tongues given your family involvement. Or have you not been to a prayer meeting.

 

[straykat]

I must’ve experienced the “jubiliation” Augustine mentioned (sounds similar to Teresa’s experience too). Perhaps it wasn’t tongues, just like I thought.

Anyways! Glory be to God

 

[gracepoole]

I would disagree it’s the most visible sign of God at work.

For those who aren’t Christian? Gonna disagree with you there. I think it must seem pretty bizarre to those who haven’t experienced anything like it before.

We are discussing Catholics, not Methodists. Not Protestant reformers. This is a great error that seems prevalent in the states in the CCM and it’s detractors and those circus ponies in it as breeders.

You’re really comfortable making assumptions about the US. That’s…curious.

If this person is around and wNts to contribute to discussions, they will.

You’re a bigger fan of the cryptic and cagey than I am. If you want her to join in and you want to mention it multiple times, tagging her is probably wise.

 

[gracepoole]

Surely you have been witness to a person not being prayed over and speaking tongues given your family involvement. Or have you not been to a prayer meeting.

I have. And that’s probably all I should say about that.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Having spent time in both countries , I do know the difference in the styles of worship. That’s not curious at all. It’s perfectly normal. Have you been to a CCM here? I would expect you to see vast differences too.

We are not talking about those who are not Christian, in fact, we are not even talking about non Catholics. We are specifically discussing the Catholic Charismatic Movement.
Stay on topic please.

I am not cryptic. I am not going to tag someone who has not been active since the move. They are a grown up, if they want in, they will.
Btw did you start that thread on sspx and their loophole discussion?

Yes and again, if you are:

I have. And that’s probably all I should say about that.

Well there you go, my point on the differences in the style of CCM in our respective countries.
No falling over slain in the spirit business in CCM I have been to. And no real talk of it. For starters as an example.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You might like Mass here, it’s very quiet and sedate in comparison to any I have attended in the states.

 

[goout]

Do you think trads ought to reject this whole movement? Please, give me your thoughts

My thoughts are, what does it matter what “Trads” reject?
It’s like if I rejected your Trad expression of your faith. Would that matter to you? I would hope not.
I don’t reject your expression of your faith, because it’s yours, and as long as it is also Catholic it’s all good.

You should give the same respect to other expressions of the faith. Not respecting the expression of a person’s faith is not a Catholic thing, especially when that expression has the respect of the Magisterium.
So, it’s always a good idea to look in the mirror, and put yourself to the same test you put others to.

As for the idea the Charismatic expressions of the faith are a modernist invention-
just no.
Acts 4:

And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

What is modernist…is individualism that denies the varied gifts (aka “charisms”) of the Catholic community. That is a truly modernist invention.

The Catholic Church is a community of living believers which has unity in diversity.
Gifts are diverse, and in those diverse gifts we are one in Christ.
1 Corinthians 12

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
…
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

(full disclosure: the charismatic expression of faith does not appeal to me personally. I am edified by quiet orderly prayer, chant, pipe organ, etc…I tend to be stoic, but what does that really matter for those who are charismatic?)

 

[gracepoole]

Having spent time in both countries , I do know the difference in the styles of worship. That’s not curious at all. It’s perfectly normal. Have you been to a CCM here? I would expect you to see vast differences too.

We are not talking about those who are not Christian, in fact, we are not even talking about non Catholics. We are specifically discussing the Catholic Charismatic Movement.
Stay on topic please.

I am not cryptic. I am not going to tag someone who has not been active since the move. They are a grown up, if they want in, they will.
Btw did you start that thread on sspx and their loophole discussion?

Yes and again, if you are:

gracepoole:

I have. And that’s probably all I should say about that.

Well there you go, my point on the differences in the style of CCM in our respective countries.
No falling over slain in the spirit business in CCM I have been to. And no real talk of it. For starters as an example.

It’s actually quite cryptic to make references to something or someone twice in 24-hours and not follow through with identifying either. But to each her own.

Perhaps you need to reread the other thread more closely. As I stated there, I’ve no desire to discuss the SSPX in depth as there are innumerable threads on the topic already. And (cough cough) I didn’t raise the issue of a “loophole”…

Perhaps it’s Australia that’s quite curious after all. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that for anyone, speaking in tongues can seem quite bizarre. If it weren’t, it would be a normal occurrence. Or is it in your country?

 

[straykat]

Some of Traditionalist stuff reminds me of that time when Jesus’ disciples told him about some other men who were healing and casting out demons in Jesus’ name. “Shall we stop them, Lord?”

“Whoever isn’t working against us is for us.”

It’s like they wanted to suppress a GOOD thing, because someone wasn’t part of their clique. “They’re not directed by us or saying it the right way”, etc… This is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[straykat]

On a sidenote, and this isn’t exactly charismatic, but the Holy Spirit is everywhere. Even in a child. This girl (a Chaldean Catholic) definitely speaks with the Spirit… and she says so. To me, that’s the biggest sign, when words come out of a believer that aren’t merely human derived. I’ve heard other stories like this from people persecuted by ISIL. One of a nun relating a young believer who got kidnapped by ISIS and held hostage… and he started witnessing to them and quoting “St. Thomas” the Apostle, when no one has any of these sayings written… and he didn’t know where they came from. He completely stumped the ISIS members apparently, and they said “Why do you Christians suddenly starting speaking like that… ?” like they knew something mystical was happening, but were too blind to see it was God.

 

[Tulitas]

The only Charismatic groups here are the Hispanic prayer groups.
Very emotional, very high spirited in music and prayers.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

It’s actually quite cryptic to make references to something or someone twice in 24-hours and not follow through with identifying either. But to each her own.

I am happy to discuss that loophole in a new thread. When you are ready…

And (cough cough) I didn’t raise the issue of a “loophole”…

And yet, it became a focus, without coughing.

Perhaps it’s Australia that’s quite curious after all. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that for anyone, speaking in tongues can seem quite bizarre. If it weren’t, it would be a normal occurrence. Or is it in your country?

Australia is a curiosity, afterall we have that platypus - it confounded the experts for quite some time, and then there’s that Thylacine. The big question though is why on earth do we eat vegemite
Speaking in tongues is quite common knowledge in both countries as a religious thing.
It’s a feature most people would relate to as part of practising ones religion. Just like any other cultural norm associated with a religion or a group. What do you automatically associate with Jewish religion, Buddhism, muslim religion,. Mention CCM and up comes the topic of tongues.
I know atheists with no idea of what Easter is about, apart from being a public holiday, that know some people who practice their religion speak in tongues. That’s a curiosity to me.

It’s pretty normal if you want it to be. The Catholic Church has normalised speaking in tongues of recent years, through the CCM. The CCM held its 50 year anniversary recently with celebrations at the Vatican,

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The only Charismatic groups here are the Hispanic prayer groups.

Very emotional, very high spirited in music and prayers.

I remember a Hispanic mass very fondly. It was so very different and full of joy.

 

[Tulitas]

Yes, we have many here weekly, I was talking about the prayer group meetings though. We don’t have Charismatic Masses here.

 

[goout]

Yeah, but the current discipline in the Church is that Gregorian Chant has pride of place in the liturgy.

And just because things CAN change, doesn’t mean they SHOULD.

Well, the reality is things did change, whether you and I like it or not.
We don’t live in the “church of the theoretical purity”, we are a living Church composed of living people united with Christ.

It’s basic to Catholic philosophy that life is about movement.
Conversion, repentance, are all about movement. Stagnation is not part of eternal life. Only God is without change. Human beings, not so much.

 

[straykat]

That at least to me is something I’d be sad about. Easter is definitely more important for people to know than “tongues”. Christ is risen! That’s the beginning and end of our faith. Not tongues. One day even that will pass, as said St. Paul.

“For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

 

[Roseeurekacross]

The person who took me to the Hispanic mass didn’t realise the times had been changed around and was so apologetic for several hours. I kept saying, don’t apologise, it was such a gift to see a different cultural perspective of worshipping God in the Holy Mass

Straykat its kind of how many atheists roll here. Not having had the opportunity to understand the basics of the bible. The excuses usually come in the form of, old brainwashing out of fashion, society controlling garbage.

Then they say… but can I hear you speak in tongues. So perhaps there is a bigger purpose to it all

 

[Reuben_J]

I think the Catholic Charismatic movement is doing great wonders for the Church in modern times! I personally am more traditional but I appreciate all the new converts to the Catholic Church who can be traced back to this movement. I think they just need to make sure they do not over obsess with the feeling of being filled with the Holy Spirit that they end up only looking for signs and miracles as supposed to the actual God who is there in the calm of the storm. We must love God for who he is and in all the suffering we have, not just for the warm fuzzy feelings he gives us. If not, it would be a surefire way for evil spirits to come into our lives, disguised as the holy spirit to unexperienced believers. Similar to how in the Act of Contrition we say we are sorry for our sins because we have lost heaven and gained hell but most of all because they offend God. Not because we feel sorry but because we know it is wrong. And in the Interior Castle of the soul, it talks about how at first we may be filled with deep joy, sorrow, and intense emotions when having a conversion of spirit but sooner or later God will test us in the blandness of life, the tastelessness of our faith. To the point of where it becomes a burden—a cross if you will. If we persevere even through this then we have reached the innermost part of the castle of the soul.

Exactly. People in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal are simple people who have been renewed in their Catholic faith by the power of the Holy Spirit.

They are not obsessed. How in the world people get this idea?

They are not Protestants. Their renewal is in the Catholic faith.

It is the Holy Spirit that can change people from lukewarm or indiferrences to having the zeal in Catholic faith, in which as a result their unchristian lives are changed to one of God’s.

If they are changed, by the Holy Spirit, from being a drunk who beat their wives and now they stop drinking and become good husbands and fathers who love God and the Church; what’s so wrong with that?

 

[straykat]

You’ll only look bad if you try to “suppress” it. Regardless of what you believe, you have much better “enemies”. Look around.