Trans-priests and the gender wars

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I think it’s both the points you mentioned.
I think they often perceive the priesthood in the similar way as they perceive a normal workplace hierarchy instead of understanding a priest as meant to be “the greatest of servants”.
I have never heard of trans priests but I did hear the other day of two male Anglican priests marrying each other. 😳
 
edwest211 said:
“priestly celibacy” is not open for debate.
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Sure it is. It’s not an issue of divine law, but of Church practice. If the Pope decided tomorrow to allow married men to be ordained as a universal norm, he could do so. And one can personally want married priests and still be a Catholic in good standing, as long as in the end they’re obedient to the Church’s current practice. (I for one do support celibacy as the norm, btw).

Ordaining women, however, is not up for debate. The case is closed.
 
LilyM said:
I think advocates of women’s ordination have trouble seeing why it is a matter of unchangeable dogma whereas priestly celibacy is a matter of changeable discipline.
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Because the Church does not have the authority to ordain women but it has the authority to ordain married men.

The Church simply can’t ordain women because it does not have the authority.

Not that the Church doesn’t want to but it simply can’t.

It’s like me and flying. I may want to but I simply can’t.
 
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CilladeRoma said:
I replied to a specific assumption made by a specific poster.

The attitude that women who support the ordination of women do so because of the desire for “power” in general, and “power over men” specifically, is demeaning and a perfect example of judgemental attitudes that do more to drive people away than bring them into the fold.

Many of the women I know/knew in the woman’s ordination movement are/were humble, holy woman who feel the are being called by God.
To ascribe nefarious motives to all of them is the antithesis of the Christian command to “love ones neighbor”.
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You can think you’re humble and you can honestly believe you’re humble, but if you’re taught something by someone who really has authority to teach the truth and you refuse to believe it and you are forbidden from doing something by someone with the authority to forbid it and you do it, anyway, and then when you are ex-communicated by a legitimate canonical process and you say you refuse to accept your ex-communication, that’s not humility. Sorry, but it is just not. Martin Luther wasn’t humble and neither are those who are in this movement that attempts the ordination of women and then (as happened in our archdiocese) telling the local newspapers that they have ordained a woman not to the clergy of their new denomination but to the Roman Catholic priesthood!

Disrespect does not have to be intended in order for disrespect to be shown, as Archbishop Vlazny so eloquently explained:


Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:00 PM

On Friday, Aug. 17, the Oregonian reported on a religious ceremony at Zion United Church of Christ in Gresham which was described as a Roman Catholic “ordination.” According to the report, we now have the first woman Roman Catholic priest in Oregon…

…Our relationships with other churches are sometimes fragile because of differences in beliefs and values. But in all ecumenical relationships Christian churches do their best to respect the diversity in practices and beliefs. I regret the apparent disregard for this understanding.

Any person who claims to have been ordained a Catholic bishop, priest or deacon without the proper authorization from church authorities not only is making a false representation of the facts but also by such an act leaves our church community. We are always saddened when sisters and brothers walk away from us, particularly in this manner. We continue to work and pray for unity in the essentials of our Christian faith and for charity and mutual respect in circumstances where we disagree.
 
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Many of the women I know who were involved in the push for Woman’s ordination, started their organization in the 1970s.
At that time, JPII was not Pope, and there had not been a declarative statement from the Vatican saying that the ordination of women was impossible, that came in 1994.

Many of the women I know, who were part of the movement did accept what the Chruch said, and continued to find ways to use their gifts in service to the Church. The still thought that maybe she was misguided, but they accepted that the Church had spoken.

Sadly, there were others, who did not. And sadly, those women have made it very difficult for women like me, who while I support the all-male priesthood, I do believe that women have gifts that are not being utilized. I for one, see no reason why laypeople women or men, are prohibited from preaching.

I think that having a lay perspective in a homily, on occasion, could be a very good thing.
I also think that seeing more laypeople, again, both men and women, in leadership roles, both in parishes and in dioceses would be a good thing.

My issue with this thread and some of the comments is the rush to impune these women as prideful and childish.
 
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So what you’re saying is that the Church has one opinion, these women another, and the opinions are of equal worth (even though you personally have come to see the Church’s point of view).

With that attitude, it is no wonder that women think, “If I just am passionate enough and push hard enough, things will change. They changed for other churches, they will change for this one” and then they will become even more bitter and hurt when it does not change.

Honestly, in this case it is far better to accept the disappointment now and spend one’s life ‘dealing’ than it is to not accept, to grow ever angrier, more hurt, and more inclined to spend one’s life rebelling over this and other teachings that seem ‘unfair’
 
I never said both opinions were equal.

But does that really matter?
There are women who are wounded because, in their limited understanding, they feel as though the Church is treating them as 2nd class members whose only job is to have male babies who can become priests. Maybe, just maybe, instead of berating and belittling them, we actually listen and dialogue with them we can help them to understand why the priesthood is not an option.
 
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Like I said, I am totally in support of clerical celibacy; and Pope Paul’s letter provides some great explanations of the discipline. But that doesn’t invalidate the fact that it’s a discipline that can potentially be changed (though I believe it would be very unwise to change it).
 
In my very limited experience at the parish level I did notice that women do have opinions that they are able to express through various channels. They serve on the majority of parish committees, they serve on parish council, have a very influential voice in the selection of church music, do most of the readings during mass, mostly girls are altar servers and so on.
And sometimes their opinions contradict the magisterium and even the Bible. I recall being taken aback by a discussion during bible study, where the women openly questioned the perpetual virginity of Mary. “Of course she had more children” was the concensus of the ladies there. The men, as always in these matters, said nothing.
 
ontheway1 said:
I recall being taken aback by a discussion during bible study, where the women openly questioned the perpetual virginity of Mary. “Of course she had more children” was the concensus of the ladies there.
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Yeah, like it’s impossible for a woman to just have one child.

:roll_eyes:
 
I know about this document, but there was still some question, at least in the minds of some, including priests and Bishops around the world.

I know that this has been settled. Sadly, there are those who still want to push this envelope.

All I am saying is that we need to be careful with the worda we use. I get that some see that as denying truth, but it is not. Language changes, context changes and we need to be aware of that when we deal with these hot-button issues.
 
Not that I believe this, but would there be a reason to discuss them?

At one point, Jesus’ brothers and sisters are referenced in the Gospels. Does it really matter? The Gospels tell us that they are just a fraction of what Jesus did here on earth. That fact the he did or did not have siblings is really irrelevant in the minds of the writers as it is not important to the story.
 
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Being respectful towards others - certainly.

But if a woman knows very well what the Church in her Authority teaches, but still refuses to give assent to this through her intellect and will … then this refusal to submit and accept this, wouldn’t you say stems from pride as in it comes from - perhaps a subconscious - nope, I don’t agree, the Church is wrong and that they are right type of attitude?

After all God chose a woman through whom His Son entered the world - our Savior and Redeemer. This says to me the importance God has placed on the role of women, and He has ordered matters - a right order.
 
I agree with you that there could be some pride at work. I know in my case there was.

Again, what I object to is the wholesale dismissal of these women as prideful, petulant, children who are having a tantrum in the hope of getting their way.

When you believe, with every fiber of your being, that you are being called to something, by a God that you love, being belittled, demeaned and silenced is not going to make you accept things any easier.
 
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“What is all of this SUPPOSED to be about-----serving God or serving ourselves?”

This is the crux of the matter.
 
CilladeRoma said:
is not going to make you accept things any easier.
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Perhaps not. But then, if this was the reaction I got, it’d give me pause to question why this is the reaction I was getting and to investigate matters for myself to seek the truth rather than being told what to think - by those pushing for this change.
CilladeRoma said:
When you believe, with every fiber of your being, that you are being called to something,
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Exactly. So when you learn what and why the Church says on this matter, then surely that is when one turns back to God, acknowledges they misunderstood to what He was calling them to, and to beg His guidance and to be led to what it really is He wants, along with the right understanding and acceptance of His Will. And to continue to seek what this may be.

One door closes, another opens.

In the secular world, if one doesn’t get a job they had their heart set on believing that is what they are meant to do, love the job immensely, yet do not get those positions, then surely the person would reconsider their choice based on reality and what is possible?
 
There is no reason to yell.
Yes, it is supposed to be about God, and many of these women believe that it is God who is calling them.

Why is this so hard for some of you to understand? These women need our prayers and understanding, not our condemnations.
 
All caps in the internet world is yelling.
Use italics or bold if you want to emphasize.

I tend to pass over many of your posts because of your use of all caps because of the perception that you are yelling.
 
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