Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

[Havard]

No, actually I have tremendous sympathy for the parents. As I said, I think any parent would be woefully unprepared. No one anticipates this situation and there’s no owner’s manual that can successfully guide a parent through it. Yes, I think there were probably other approaches that may have led to different results – but who can say with certainty? And as a parent, I know the what if’s will likely consume and torture these parents for the rest of their lives. I have no interest in adding to their pain or condemning them. I just don’t think it’s an either/or proposition: either we condemn the parents or we condemn the child. Everyone here suffered and the parents will continue to suffer horribly. It’s a horrifying tragedy all around.

I have a feeling that gender identity disorder was a powerful contributor to the depression. I don’t know how one could gauge which was more powerful at the time of death.

Very well put, Gracepoole. Prayers offered for all involved.

 

[SWolf]

I guarantee you that his birth certificate as well as his death have the name" Joshua" and sex as “male”. People try to delude themselves with all kinds of supposed “scientific facts”.The fact is that there is no proof of gender identity disorder.It is a psychological construct created sometime in the 1970s to try to explain people who despise their own genitalia.It also gave rise to some bizarre surgical techniques that surgeons could experiment with.

That’s one of the ugly truths of Psychiatry. It’s shocking how much of it is built on sand. However, that’s another thread of discussion

There are many stories or people who “transitioned” who ended up fine, while a multitude of others it didn’t help at all, and even made worse. There are another multitude There is no objective medical test to differentiate the two.

That some would condemn the parents and therapists for refusing such a drastic measure to treat something a multitude simply grow out of is absurd given the limited information we have.

 

[Path_Finder]

A big story I came to see is that India passed legislation recognizing “Transgendered” Persons as a 3rd gender.

independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/landmark-indian-transgender-law-change-as-court-rules-third-gender-must-be-recognised-9263813.html

Transgender people in India have welcomed a landmark Supreme Court ruling that said all official documents must include the option for people to identify themselves as a third gender, for the first time offering a guarantee of human rights to around three million people.

The court ruled that the government must provide transgender people with equal access to education, healthcare and welfare programmes, and ordered a public awareness campaign be set up to tackle the stigma they face in day-to-day life.

Previously, India’s transgender population has been ostracised and excluded from mainstream society because of their lack of legal recognition. Discriminated against and abused, many are forced into organised begging syndicates or prostitution.

 

[Havard]

A big story I came to see is that India passed legislation recognizing “Transgendered” Persons as a 3rd gender.

independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/landmark-indian-transgender-law-change-as-court-rules-third-gender-must-be-recognised-9263813.html

Eh??

Making transgender its own category, neither male nor female, implies that trans means you are not truly the gender you feel, nor are you the gender you were determined at birth. So it seems to me this solution misses the boat on two fronts.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not exactly. In fact, third genders in India, I believe, are treated by Muslims with more respect both socioculturally and religiously than people who are gay. For example, male transgenders are not condemned by Sharia law whereas (active) male homosexuals are, and culturally they serve a feminine role in the household. There was a fascinating television program about this multi-gender cultural phenomenon a few years ago–unfortunately, I can’t recall the name of it.

“Transgender” is a loose term which is sometimes applied to hermaphrodites, people who want sexual change suregery, ordinary homosexuals and ordinary transvestites. How various societies view each one differs.

Yes, there are particular “roles” for transgenders in India and, in those roles (they’re hired for celebrations of all sorts) they are treated with respect and paid. However, if you really study it, you will find that even in India they are the objects of a lot of scorn and abuse day to day. It’s not the same thing as “accepting a third gender”. Those men have undergone removal of their sexual organs, often in very crude ways and some die from it.

In Islam, generally, true hermaphrodites are encourage to have surgeries that make them one sex or the other. that’s pretty universal.

When it comes to surgical “sexual reassignment”, some islamic societies (like Iran) require it of any man who is a homosexual, whether he wants it or not. In other Islamic societies, male-to-female would bes are encouraged to do it, while female to males are not. In some, non-hermaphrodite “transgenderism” is frowned on and in some places prosecuted.

Homosexuality is generally forbidden except as mentioned above, and while it’s often observed in the breach, can be punishable by death.

Islam does not recognize “several genders” as legitimate.

 

[Thorolfr]

Seriously ,how far to we have to degrade as a society to consider the gender God gave us as something expendable and unnecessary.

Perhaps the gender we are born with is not as important to God as what you imagine. As it says in Galatians 3:28:

28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

 

[meltzerboy]

“Transgender” is a loose term which is sometimes applied to hermaphrodites, people who want sexual change suregery, ordinary homosexuals and ordinary transvestites. How various societies view each one differs.

Yes, there are particular “roles” for transgenders in India and, in those roles (they’re hired for celebrations of all sorts) they are treated with respect and paid. However, if you really study it, you will find that even in India they are the objects of a lot of scorn and abuse day to day. It’s not the same thing as “accepting a third gender”. Those men have undergone removal of their sexual organs, often in very crude ways and some die from it.

In Islam, generally, true hermaphrodites are encourage to have surgeries that make them one sex or the other. that’s pretty universal.

When it comes to surgical “sexual reassignment”, some islamic societies (like Iran) require it of any man who is a homosexual, whether he wants it or not. In other Islamic societies, male-to-female would bes are encouraged to do it, while female to males are not. In some, non-hermaphrodite “transgenderism” is frowned on and in some places prosecuted.

Homosexuality is generally forbidden except as mentioned above, and while it’s often observed in the breach, can be punishable by death.

Islam does not recognize “several genders” as legitimate.

Thanks, Ridge, for the additional information. Iran’s forcing gay males to change their gender through sex reassignment surgery sounds to me particularly cruel.

There is some reference to transgenderism in either the Hebrew Bible or Talmud. I’ll have to check on that.

 

[Lion_IRC]

This is one of the ugliest posts I’ve ever read on CAF. That you’ve characterized a suicide victim – one who wasn’t even an adult – as gutless, self-centered, vain, sex-obsessed, etc. is unbelievably sad. That you’ve characterized someone obviously suffering from depression as not experiencing “real” problems is terrifically naive. I, too, will pray for you.

A victim???
Of what? Who is responsible for this persons death? What social pathology do you think is the root cause of these peoples’ problems? Who do you blame?

…oh, and please don’t bother yourself to pray for me in the hope of winning an internet argument.
If you have spare time to do that I would rather instead that you pray for something REALLY important - like the sick and the dying and the poor and the grieving and the homeless.

 

[Thorolfr]

When it comes to surgical “sexual reassignment”, some islamic societies (like Iran) require it of any man who is a homosexual, whether he wants it or not.

Which is a horrible practice since most gay men have no desire to become a woman. They are perfectly happy with the gender they were born with. Gender and sexual orientation are two completely different things.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There is some reference to transgenderism in either the Hebrew Bible or Talmud. I’ll have to check on that.

That would probably be interesting, but one has to be careful to make distinctions in doing so because “transgenderism” in common parlence can mean a lot of very different things.

It is my impression that while the Bible doesn’t deal with the subject a lot, it does not treat favorably:

1. Homosexual relations.
2. Cross dressing.

 

[meltzerboy]

Which is a horrible practice since most gay men have no desire to become a woman. They are perfectly happy with the gender they were born with. Gender and sexual orientation are two completely different things.

For some reason, this distinction seems to be lost on many people. Gender dysphoria (gender identity disorder) and homosexuality (same-sex attraction) are NOT the same thing. And cross-dressing (transvestism) is something different again. The majority of cross-dressers are straight, not gay, and not transgender.

 

[gracepoole]

A victim???
Of what? Who is responsible for this persons death? What social pathology do you think is the root cause of these peoples’ problems? Who do you blame?

…oh, and please don’t bother yourself to pray for me in the hope of winning an internet argument.
If you have spare time to do that I would rather instead that you pray for something REALLY important - like the sick and the dying and the poor and the grieving and the homeless.

I am saddened that you know so little about depression and suicide. Your assumptions about someone who was suicidal and actually followed through with it are, as I noted earlier, terrifically naive. If someone has cancer, I pray and do not hurl hateful remarks at her. If someone is schizophrenic, I pray and do not hurl hateful remarks at her. If someone is depressed and suicidal, I pray and do not hurl hateful remarks at her. All three of these are legitimate illnesses – they’re “real.” What’s most sad here is that you’re speaking ill of many, many of your fellow posters who have suffered and continue to suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts. Thankfully (as I said in an earlier post), God and His Church do not condemn these people as you have. Thankfully, God has infinite compassion.

God calls me to pray for those who are hurting and angry. Still praying for you.

 

[Path_Finder]

Per Biblical quotes, we know the Bible mentioned a “Eunuch”, must be Acts.

This article on a Transgendered Person uses the word “Eunuch”. I don’t know if that is correct. In India of course.

A transgender on Sunday scripted history by winning the mayor’s election in Chhattisgarh’s Raigarh municipal corporation, defeating his nearest rival from Bharatiya Janata Party.

Independent candidate Madhu Kinnar won the mayoral election of the Raigarh Municipal Corporation by 4,537 votes against BJP’s Mahaveer Guruji, an election official said.

Madhu, 35, belonging to Dalit community, is the first eunuch to get elected as mayor in the state.

rediff.com/news/report/transgender-scripts-history-wins-raigarh-mayoral-election/20150104.htm

 

[mkoopman]

Thanks, Ridge, for the additional information. Iran’s forcing gay males to change their gender through sex reassignment surgery sounds to me particularly cruel.

There is some reference to transgenderism in either the Hebrew Bible or Talmud. I’ll have to check on that.

You might try starting with the keyword “Jezebel,” in case you need somewhere to begin.

Hinduism traditions are the root of it. However, despite the “look and feel” of New Age, reincarnation, past life elements this modern “rooted in Vedic Scriptural tradition” is not traditional and is entirely bogus. Gender transmutation was not the form that the goddess of this inscript informed. Indeed, the reference was more likely to indicate that such morphologies were intrinsic evils of the day - or, in the light of the Indic world view, indicators of the end times of an age. And, also, this could indicate a specificity in the significance of “tantrum” in respect to this post-modern, New Age, jabberwocky.

Thus, desire for the end of the current age of turmoil would be the root of such admiration.

To this, I say, Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Would you say then that all or most suicides are selfish and designed to punish those loved ones who remain alive to grieve. I doubt it. So why do you say that about this transgender person? Could it be this teen was in such anguish that she was not thinking clearly about the effect she would have on her parents by her suicide? Her own words say as much. Your statement sounds as if you are blaming her for punishing her parents and as if that is the main reason why she committed suicide. People commit suicide because they are tormented, not to even a score.

Undoubtedly, this young transgender person in taking his own life was in anguish, not thinking clearly, as happens with troubled adults as well with depression so deep that they commit suicide.

I do not discount the pain of this transgender youth who felt compelled to leave such cruel parting words to his parents. There is no point in blaming him or his parents, it is not either-or as someone pointed out, especially that the facts as known at this time are limited. But already, the parents are being made to be heartless and uncaring, as bad parents who caused the suicide. To echo estesbob, that is shameful. Further, it is erroneous to conclude that the use of pronouns to fit the preferred gender of the young transgender, at pre-transition and pre-operative stage, and who now happens to be deceased, is a measure of true compassion and respect for the dignity of a human being.

Like homosexuality, transgenderism is not a new phenomenon. It is a state of body-mind incongruence in the person with the condition. What is new is the culture shift and pressure to come out and to transition as early as possible, pitting children against their parents, who have good reason and have the right to exercise prudence and caution. That is NOT abuse. Taking the conservative approach is not wrong. We do not know the facts on the therapy this transgender received to alleviate his depressive mood, but at least one poster is least already concluding conversion therapy was used. Transitioning is a serious decision that adults, not minors, are free to make. This kid could and should have waited to reach 18, which was only a year away at the most.

As a mother, I can not think of a more oppressive and destructive environment than one that pits children against parents. Parents are primarily responsible for the welfare of their children, not the Church, not the state, and not the LGBT movement.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

This may very well be the show I was referring to. Thank you. (I’m waiting now for the criticisms about leftist PBS.) Unlike Native American cultures who are tolerant of both, the Muslim-dominant countries are not tolerant of gay people although they are tolerant of transgender people.

Accordingly, the Quran teaches that one of Satan’s plan is changing the creation of Allah, and the prophet in Hadith cursed men who imitate women and cursed women who imitate men. Transgenders are doing the highest level of changing creation and other sex imitation.

However, in Iran, the culture accepts, even encourages SRS to treat transgenderism because if a man can become a woman, at least outwardly through surgery, he can then be be married to a proper man. Surgery restores things to a state more like the normalcy which God or nature intends. If two men are caught having sex, the behavior is considered homosexual fornication, a crime punishable by death. Go figure that.

Ridgerunner’s post about Iran’s practice to force gays to undergo SRS is conceivable in a culture that is intolerant of gay sex, lumping gay males with transgenders who have a different condition.

Thanks, Ridge, for the additional information. Iran’s forcing gay males to change their gender through sex reassignment surgery sounds to me particularly cruel.

There is some reference to transgenderism in either the Hebrew Bible or Talmud. I’ll have to check on that.

 

[St_Francis]

Undoubtedly, this young transgender person in taking his own life was in anguish, not thinking clearly, as happens with troubled adults as well with depression so deep that they commit suicide.

I do not discount the pain of this transgender youth who felt compelled to leave such cruel parting words to his parents. There is no point in blaming him or his parents, it is not either-or as someone pointed out, especially that the facts as known at this time are limited. But already, the parents are being made to be heartless and uncaring, as bad parents who caused the suicide. To echo estesbob, that is shameful. Further, it is erroneous to conclude that the use of pronouns to fit the preferred gender of the young transgender, at pre-transition and pre-operative stage, and who now happens to be deceased, is a measure of true compassion and respect for the dignity of a human being.

Like homosexuality, transgenderism is not a new phenomenon. It is a state of body-mind incongruence in the person with the condition. What is new is the culture shift and pressure to come out and to transition as early as possible, pitting children against their parents, who have good reason and have the right to exercise prudence and caution. That is NOT abuse. Taking the conservative approach is not wrong. We do not know the facts on the therapy this transgender received to alleviate his depressive mood, but at least one poster is least already concluding conversion therapy was used. Transitioning is a serious decision that adults, not minors, are free to make. This kid could and should have waited to reach 18, which was only a year away at the most.

As a mother, I can not think of a more oppressive and destructive environment than one that pits children against parents. Parents are primarily responsible for the welfare of their children, not the Church, not the state, and not the LGBT movement.
,

Thank you for making these points.

 

[meltzerboy]

Accordingly, the Quran teaches that one of Satan’s plan is changing the creation of Allah, and the prophet in Hadith cursed men who imitate women and cursed women who imitate men. Transgenders are doing the highest level of changing creation and other sex imitation.

However, in Iran, the culture accepts, even encourages SRS to treat transgenderism because if a man can become a woman, at least outwardly through surgery, he can then be be married to a proper man. Surgery restores things to a state more like the normalcy which God or nature intends. If two men are caught having sex, the behavior is considered homosexual fornication, a crime punishable by death. Go figure that.

Ridgerunner’s post about Iran’s practice to force gays to undergo SRS is conceivable in a culture that is intolerant of gay sex, lumping gay males with transgenders who have a different condition.

Interesting information, Grace. Thank you.

 

[eatpraylove11]

I prefer to stay out of politics and opinions of those with different sexual orientations than mine.

Praying for the family and the teen at this time. Suicide is not a victimless act.

 

[meltzerboy]

You might try starting with the keyword “Jezebel,” in case you need somewhere to begin.

Hinduism traditions are the root of it. However, despite the “look and feel” of New Age, reincarnation, past life elements this modern “rooted in Vedic Scriptural tradition” is not traditional and is entirely bogus. Gender transmutation was not the form that the goddess of this inscript informed. Indeed, the reference was more likely to indicate that such morphologies were intrinsic evils of the day - or, in the light of the Indic world view, indicators of the end times of an age. And, also, this could indicate a specificity in the significance of “tantrum” in respect to this post-modern, New Age, jabberwocky.

Thus, desire for the end of the current age of turmoil would be the root of such admiration.

To this, I say, Maranatha, Come Lord Jesus.

Thanks for the suggestion and information. I appreciate it.