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Darryl1958
Guest
Origen got a little carried away on that point though.
Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
I haven’t seen anyone assert that suicide is heroic. I’ve seen some posters ignore the fact that this kid had mental issues and argue that he committed suicide as some sort of way of furthering a cause and/or blame his suicide on the “LGBT agenda”, but I haven’t seen anyone claim he was heroic.
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cena
Guest
Origen believed in things that turned out to be heresy later
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
I see, so what’s the theological/moral issue behind demanding people apologize for having a mental illness or the effects their mental illness has on others? I’m sure you can find a Bible quote of Christ damning a leper for being a leper and making the community suffer by looking at him and forcing him to live outside the gates begging for food.
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Havard
Guest
So gross… may not have happened. though: medievalhistorygeek.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/did-origen-castrate-himself/
Also, as cena mentioned, it is Origen. He turned out to be wrong on a few issues.
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Lion_IRC
Guest
The moral dimension is that prevention is better than the cure and it is certainly better than dealing with the aftermath by crying over spilled milk. (Or trying to out-do others in a battle of superlatives to see who is the most sympathetic to the plight of depressed transsexuals.)
Pyromania is also a mental illness but we dont sympathize with arsonists consoling them at the expense of turning a blind eye to the havoc they intentionally wreak.
If the person who threatens or commits self-harm is not aware of the harm they themselves cause others in the wider community then they need to be made to understand and to regret this.
The feeling of personal accountability and culpability must outweigh the feeling that [the violent end somehow justifies the means](James - James, a servant of God and of the Lord - Bible Gateway 1:20&version=KJ21) no matter what harm it causes to others.
Can you not understand the important deterrent effect of communicating this loudly and clearly to those who contemplate such stupid and immoral actions? People like the 17 year old in this Op and his potential imitators MUST be made to understand that if you love your neighbor, you wouldnt do this thing. And I believe that when such people who, in this life or the next, reflect on their deeds will regret the harm they caused and be apologetic. (Or else remain defiant and violent locked inside some real or mental hell where, as CS Lewis said, the gates are locked from the inside.)
Firstly, the lepers in the bible gave obedient thanks to God when they were healed. And they themselves WANTED to be healed - they said cure me.
…not “leave me alone, FIX SOCIETY instead.”
Secondly, the leper who endangered the wider community by spreading their disease was doing something immoral. Agreed?
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Cherry5
Guest
Whether you are right or wrong, you come across as extremely uncharitable.
This what the Pope recently had to say:
jpost.com/Christian-News/Pope-blasts-Christian-Muslim-fundamentalists-while-leaving-Turkey-383405
“You just can’t say that, just as you can’t say that all Christians are fundamentalists. We have our share of them (fundamentalists). All religions have these little groups,” Pope Francis said.
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Maxirad
Guest
pbs.org/newshour/bb/teens-suicide-note-resonates-transgender-community-supporters/
What should faithful Catholics think?
What should faithful Catholics think?
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Lion_IRC
Guest
Thanks for taking the time and going out of your way to publically share such personal opinions about my post content.
So much more charitable to do it in the open thread than in a private message.
Getting labelled a ‘fundy’ is normally a pejorative that only gets thrown at me by atheists.
I will have to go and read the article to see if being a fundy Christian is the same as being a fundy muslim.
From the same paper…
**Pope Francis warns ‘lukewarm Christians’: The Lord will ‘vomit you from his mouth’ **
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Who here is saying it was a heroic choice?
Yeah well sometimes if your right hand causes you to sin it is better to chop it off and enter the kingdom of Heaven missing a hand than to burn in hell whole.
Pyromaniacs don’t necessarily commit arson, for some just having a lighter, flicking it on and staring into the flame is soothing.
Trying to make people feel bad for feeling bad just makes them feel worse and even more of a danger to themselves, it feeds the negative thoughts.
I have known several trans* people who lost faith after beginning and pleading with God to fix them yet there was no response.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Origen was brilliant and right on many more issues than he was wrong.
At any rate, I would prefer to believe that he didn’t, now that the evidence shows that to be the more probable scenario.
I can recall discussing cutting with a young girl on some forum years back. She was an atheist, but when the topic of the self-mortification involved in many of the ascetic practices of the most fanatic strains of Christianity arose, her eyes lit up.
In terms of asceticism, it is interesting how Christianity could take some very morbid psychological states, of which I imagine the desire to change one’s genitals could be included, and steer those morbid fascinations into mortification of the flesh for the greater glory of God.
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BackHand
Guest
There’s a video I think you might enjoy
youtube.com/watch?v=z2_8cfVpXbo
But in all seriousness it is sad that a Young woman took her own life, I’m hesitant to judge her or her parents as I was not there and do not have a intimate understanding of the situation.Personally I think in this extreme situation the parents maybe should have considered hormonal treatment. It’s one thing to declare that your two-year-old son is transgender because he put on a dress during playtime, or that your daughters transgender because she plays with a firetruck. However in this case it was fairly clear that someone truly thought they were living every single day trapped in the opposite genders body and it wasn’t “just a phase”.
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SWolf
Guest
Ha! That’s what I was thinking of when I wrote it.There’s a video I think you might enjoy
youtube.com/watch?v=z2_8cfVpXbo
But in all seriousness it is sad that a Young woman took her own life, I’m hesitant to judge her or her parents as I was not there and do not have a intimate understanding of the situation.Personally I think in this extreme situation the parents maybe should have considered hormonal treatment. It’s one thing to declare that your two-year-old son is transgender because he put on a dress during playtime, or that your daughters transgender because she plays with a firetruck. However in this case it was fairly clear that someone truly thought they were living every single day trapped in the opposite genders body and it wasn’t “just a phase”.
I would argue that teenagers, especially during puberty, are not close to being in terms with their own sexuality, and thus confusion like this arises. I would also argue once puberty ends they start to feel much more comfortable in their own skin. Add a few enablers in the mix and you get a very confused individual.
If they want drastic surgery that permanently makes them infertile, there had better be very good studies backing up that it helps.
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RGCheek
Guest
Once again we see how dangerous the ideologies of conversion therapists are to the wellbeing of our children. I hope her death sparks nationwide bans on conversion therapy for both transgenderism and homosexuality for minors. These suicides need to stop – we need to change our culture.
Truth.Transgender people commit suicide at much higher rates than the general population. But this is not the fault of “society”. This idea that self-mutilation can achieve what therapy cannot is crazy. Psychiatrists should stop pretending that one’s desire to become the other sex is not a disorder. It is.
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RGCheek
Guest
And if you wanted to be thought of as the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler and do the whole swastika wearing thAng and talking to everyone about how inferior everyone else is to blonde northern Europeans, you would still expect them to love you?
I didn’t think so.
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J_Peterson
Guest
But He mistakenly forgets to put a brain in some babies heads or mistakenly forgets to finish the limbs before they are born? Sometimes He creates a person whose immune system attacks the body and ends up killing itself. Is that a “mistake” that God can’t make as well? God does all sorts of things that make no sense to us. You are dictating what God can and can’t do.
Everything we experience is in our eartly body, including the transgendered persons conviction that their sex doesn’t match the gender identity they were born with. Of course you would choose to ignore their testimonty because it gets in the way of trying to force the world fit your theology.
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St_Francis
Guest
I heard about an event in which the news of a teen’s suicide was followed by information about the sorrow this caused the victim’s parents and friends rather than the “outpouring of support” sort of thing, and this suicide was not copied.
When the media takes up the “cause” of the person who commits suicide, it encourages others of that cause to commit suicide. Finally the emotional response they want will come forth, sometimes on a national basis!, even if after the death they cannot really imagine. This encourages other teens, neurologically undeveloped and suffering to the point of mental illness and consequent loss of perspective, to do the same. This seems to be why we have copy-cat suicides.
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manualman
Guest
A rather different scenario, no?. Hitler appeared to be totally given over to evil. Women, as a class, aren’t (at least in my experience!). A boy who suffers the delusion that he is a girl does not deserve to be treated like a boy who suffers the delusion that he is Hitler (along with the worldview of Hitler). We can love him and not support his delusion. It’s a balance that can be achieved.
But I’m also not convinced that the most loving thing for him is to feed his delusion that he is a girl and demand that NOBODY do anything to try and figure out what went wrong and if there is any help for it. Make no mistake, that is precisely what the “ban conversion therapy” activists want. They want an absolute legal and societal standard that declares LGBT worldviews as equal in function and value as normal heterosexuality and punishments for anyone who says otherwise.
We have this strange therapeutic philosophy nowadays in which feelings trump objective reality that amounts to equating madness with sanity. This does NOT end well.
People ARE capable of coming to grips with the reality that they are flawed, fallen and broken. Lord knows I have lots of issues that I’ve had precious little progress with in spite of the assistance of Grace. Why are we so readily willing to declare that it is impossible for someone with LGBT to see themselves as priceless treasures created by God in spite of having a stubborn problem that won’t seem to go away? Who DOESN’T have such things? Why is this the “uber-issue” that trumps all prior wisdom, morality and philosophy?
Have you ever met a person who has never told a lie? I haven’t. Yet, we have no mass societal consensus trying to declare lying to be a virtue after all. Granted, the ill effects of lying are so much shorter term and easier to see than those of sexual immorality and dysfunction, but the total difference in approach is a significant inconsistency.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
So no actual Bible quote of Christ damning a leper for being a leper and making the community suffer by looking at him while he begged for food outside the gates?
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St_Francis
Guest
There is something classified as Body Integrity Disorder, where a person thinks they really are an amputee. They see their limb as some weird thing that is not supposed to be there. They feel disconnected from it. Some sufferers seem to function just fine in the world, just having this one “quirk.”
This seems to me to be very related to transgenderism, which is also called Gender Identity Disorder.
Does this mean the transgender person really *is *somehow a member of the opposite sex? Does it mean the person with BID really *is *an amputee? Is reality determined by our feelings about it, or by some external measure?
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