The Church document that we both posted states explicitly that surgery is morally licit if required to cure a patient’s inner turmoil.Of curse she does-we have posted cites from the Catechism and Church documents earlier in this thread.
The document I posted stated clearly that gender could not be changed by surgery. Gender is determined at conception.As the Cathecism states "man and woman,God made them.The Church document that we both posted states explicitly that surgery is morally licit if required to cure a patient’s inner turmoil.
No Catechism statement refutes this.
I posted (and you posted!!) a document that clearly states that surgery for transsexuals can be morally licit. I don’t know why you’re being so difficult. When the Church says something, we should listen even if we don’t agree. And we certainly shouldn’t be misrepresenting Her statements.
I have never met a transsexual who felt that gender could be changed by surgery. Ever. That is a straw man argument. Transsexuals believe their gender was determined at conception. All of this is in accordance with Catholic teaching.The document I posted stated clearly that gender could not be changed by surgery. Gender is determined at conception.As the Cathecism states "man and woman,God made them.
But what about when the surgery doesn’t do anything for their inner turmoil?In its sub-secretum letter to Bishops about transsexuality specifically that you linked, the Vatican affirmed that the surgery can be morally licit in cases where it was/is the only way to cure the patient’s inner turmoil. There is no other possible way to interpret this. They didn’t just randomly change topics for one line of their letter.
The Church does also affirm that one cannot change their gender, but She does not mandate a specific medical basis from which gender must be determined. She does not state that gender is infallibly linked to one’s genitalia.
Under the influence of Paul McHugh, a transphobic Johns Hopkins psychiatrist and conservative Catholic ideologue (and advisor to the Vatican on sexual matters), the Vatican pronounced in 2000 that transsexualism “does not exist” - claiming that it is a form of insanity instead.The Church document that we both posted states explicitly that surgery is morally licit if required to cure a patient’s inner turmoil.
No Catechism statement refutes this.
I posted (and you posted!!) a document that clearly states that surgery for transsexuals can be morally licit. I don’t know why you’re being so difficult. When the Church says something, we should listen even if we don’t agree. And we certainly shouldn’t be misrepresenting Her statements.
There is a fundamental philosophical (epistemic) problem with the claim that ones actual gender can somehow be redefined as being the opposite of ones perceived imaginary ‘gender’.I have never met a transsexual who felt that gender could be changed by surgery. Ever. That is a straw man argument. Transsexuals believe their gender was determined at conception. All of this is in accordance with Catholic teaching.
“Transphobic”? It appears that the term may be similar to the other fabricated one called homophobic. Both of them are incredibly broad terms meant to put Christians in a bad light because many do not agree with the current trends in psychology.Under the influence of Paul McHugh, a transphobic Johns Hopkins psychiatrist and conservative Catholic ideologue (and advisor to the Vatican on sexual matters), the Vatican pronounced in 2000 that transsexualism “does not exist” - claiming that it is a form of insanity instead.
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html
They believe themselves to be the gender they feel inside rather than the gender that is physically and genetically apparent. They do not believe that surgery will change their sex because they believe they already are the sex they want to change their bodies to be. So, Altho the world sees Jane as a woman who wants to change her sex to be a man, the transgender people see “Jane” as a man who merely wants to to bring the body into line with the “actual” sex.I have never met a transsexual who felt that gender could be changed by surgery. Ever. That is a straw man argument. Transsexuals believe their gender was determined at conception. All of this is in accordance with Catholic teaching.
I think how we respond to a Catholic who goes through this is different than how we respond to a non-Catholic/Christian.Fixing society in this instances might require the recognition that celebrating any affliction as a normal expression of human desire doesn’t comport with nature. Disorder exists, and that’s an affliction. Encouraging a person in their disorder doesn’t fix anything, in the end, disorder is miserable and encouraging a person to be miserable doesn’t do them a favor.
The church teaches that the soul is infused at conception. Sex is also determined at conception therefore surgically attempting to make a penis a vagina does not actually cause a male to become female. It also does not cure the deep seated psychological problems which lead to a person hating his own genitals.I think how we respond to a Catholic who goes through this is different than how we respond to a non-Catholic/Christian.
You can encourage the patient bearing of suffering temporarily in this age and offering up to Jesus, whereas that doesn’t translate for a non-Christian.
Whereas a Christian might have the strength and hope, a non-Christian might just despair of the situation and commit suicide.
The attitude of “Just deal with it. You have a disorder” seems very cold and unsympathetic, leading to a point where one feels they have no hope or recourse for a better outcome in the future.
And we don’t know how our mind, body, and soul connect. If the soul and mind are one gender, but the body happens to interpret as a different gender, who are we to say someone is sinning by getting a surgery. If the material body is prone to error, then gender confusion/dysphoria/etc might be the “fault” of the body and not the “fault” of the mind/brain/psyche. Is there Church teaching that says the gender is defined by what the chromosomes and bodily organs dictate? Or moral culpability depending on psychological state?
That was copied and pasted from that website. I think words like homophobic and transphobic are overused and usually used to shut down an argument.“Transphobic”? It appears that the term may be similar to the other fabricated one called homophobic. Both of them are incredibly broad terms meant to put Christians in a bad light because many do not agree with the current trends in psychology.
The terms are actually a type of psychology demonizing or giving a mental aberration to people who believe the bible in that God creates us male and female and that homosexual genital contact is an abnormal expression of the conjugal love between a married man and woman. In the same way mutilating one genitals surgically in order to appear to be another sex is another abnormal form of sexual expression that a great many Christians reject.
Give these terms a label and it generates hate speech against those who do not despise homosexuals or others with similar disordered appetites, but sincerely love them as people worthy of God’s love. People though who are in a state of sin and need redemption.
God’s love and mercy extends to all and even the most hardened heart can be touched by the Holy Spirit.
What evidence do they have? There’s no scientific evidence that’s true. If someone believes in reincarnation and they thought they were a deer in a past life, and they wanted to be treated as if that were true, are we supposed to submit to their request?They believe themselves to be the gender they feel inside rather than the gender that is physically and genetically apparent. They do not believe that surgery will change their sex because they believe they already are the sex they want to change their bodies to be. So, Altho the world sees Jane as a woman who wants to change her sex to be a man, the transgender people see “Jane” as a man who merely wants to to bring the body into line with the “actual” sex.
OTOH, others believe that the body shows which sex a person is, and that despite what is done to the body, the sex will remain the same. Jane is a women who feels like a man, not a man in a woman’s body.
By seeing that each group is putting the source of one’s sex in a different place (mind, body), we can see that we don’t actually agree that “surgery doesnmt change one’s sex.”
I’m sorry if it seems cold, and I didn’t say “just deal with it”. But note also, I didn’t cite to religion at all.I think how we respond to a Catholic who goes through this is different than how we respond to a non-Catholic/Christian.
You can encourage the patient bearing of suffering temporarily in this age and offering up to Jesus, whereas that doesn’t translate for a non-Christian.
Whereas a Christian might have the strength and hope, a non-Christian might just despair of the situation and commit suicide.
The attitude of “Just deal with it. You have a disorder” seems very cold and unsympathetic, leading to a point where one feels they have no hope or recourse for a better outcome in the future.
And we don’t know how our mind, body, and soul connect. If the soul and mind are one gender, but the body happens to interpret as a different gender, who are we to say someone is sinning by getting a surgery. If the material body is prone to error, then gender confusion/dysphoria/etc might be the “fault” of the body and not the “fault” of the mind/brain/psyche. Is there Church teaching that says the gender is defined by what the chromosomes and bodily organs dictate? Or moral culpability depending on psychological state?
I was just responding to an assertion that transgender people don’t think surgery changes their sex. I personally think that transgender people have a psychological problem along the lines of BID, which should be treated as such. It would be nice if doctors, instead of researching how to improve sex-changing techniques, researched what was happening neurologically to these peopl to see if there is some sort of cure.What evidence do they have? There’s no scientific evidence that’s true. If someone believes in reincarnation and they thought they were a deer in a past life, and they wanted to be treated as if that were true, are we supposed to submit to their request?
When we c&p from someone else, we try to set off the quoted material to clarify that it is quoted. Sometimes I change the color of the quoted type; lately I have been using the indent command.That was copied and pasted from that website. I think words like homophobic and transphobic are overused and usually used to shut down an argument.
I should have put it in quotation marks, I’m sorryWhen we c&p from someone else, we try to set off the quoted material to clarify that it is quoted. Sometimes I change the color of the quoted type; lately I have been using the indent command.
As with any disorder, compassion is in order as the main response for any societyFixing society in this instances might require the recognition that celebrating any affliction as a normal expression of human desire doesn’t comport with nature. Disorder exists, and that’s an affliction. Encouraging a person in their disorder doesn’t fix anything, in the end, disorder is miserable and encouraging a person to be miserable doesn’t do them a favor.
Not transitioning is much worse for their welfare than transitioning.Fixing society in this instances might require the recognition that celebrating any affliction as a normal expression of human desire doesn’t comport with nature. Disorder exists, and that’s an affliction. Encouraging a person in their disorder doesn’t fix anything, in the end, disorder is miserable and encouraging a person to be miserable doesn’t do them a favor.
I’ve known several Christian trnswomen and they still sometimes despair. To feel you are truly alone is a terrible thing; offering up your suffering can only go so far.I think how we respond to a Catholic who goes through this is different than how we respond to a non-Catholic/Christian.
You can encourage the patient bearing of suffering temporarily in this age and offering up to Jesus, whereas that doesn’t translate for a non-Christian.
Whereas a Christian might have the strength and hope, a non-Christian might just despair of the situation and commit suicide.
The attitude of “Just deal with it. You have a disorder” seems very cold and unsympathetic, leading to a point where one feels they have no hope or recourse for a better outcome in the future.
And we don’t know how our mind, body, and soul connect. If the soul and mind are one gender, but the body happens to interpret as a different gender, who are we to say someone is sinning by getting a surgery. If the material body is prone to error, then gender confusion/dysphoria/etc might be the “fault” of the body and not the “fault” of the mind/brain/psyche. Is there Church teaching that says the gender is defined by what the chromosomes and bodily organs dictate? Or moral culpability depending on psychological state?
Sex is not determined at conception, chromosomes are.The church teaches that the soul is infused at conception. Sex is also determined at conception therefore surgically attempting to make a penis a vagina does not actually cause a male to become female. It also does not cure the deep seated psychological problems which lead to a person hating his own genitals.
HRT and socially transitioning is often enough to dramatically improve their welfare.I was just responding to an assertion that transgender people don’t think surgery changes their sex. I personally think that transgender people have a psychological problem along the lines of BID, which should be treated as such. It would be nice if doctors, instead of researching how to improve sex-changing techniques, researched what was happening neurologically to these peopl to see if there is some sort of cure.
And the scientific evidence for this is?Not transitioning is much worse for their welfare than transitioning.
I’ve known several Christian trnswomen and they still sometimes despair. To feel you are truly alone is a terrible thing; offering up your suffering can only go so far.
Sex is not determined at conception, chromosomes are.
HRT and socially transitioning is often enough to dramatically improve their welfare.
It appears the brain was sexed before birth and in the case of transgender people it was over or undermasculinized.