Transgender teen who died of an apparent suicide: ‘Fix society. Please.’

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
MarcoPolo said:
Secondly, in the state of California’s move to ban “conversion therapy,” they appealed to the studies of the American Psychological Association’s 2009 Report of the Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation. The studies by that task force include the following statement:
ame-sex sexual attractions and behavior occur in the context of a variety of sexual orientations and sexual orientation identities, and for some, sexual orientation identity (i.e., individual or group membership and affiliation, self-labeling) is fluid or has an indefinite outcome.So they even admit that sexual orientation is “fluid,” “indefinite,” and thus not necessarily fixed in some people. I have yet to see a scientific study presented that shows a person never can have sexuality as part of dissociative identity or similar affliction. And as stated earlier, there are plural studies showing that early sexual abuse can move someone to homosexuality that otherwise would not have.
Click to expand...

I can see why you would be confused by that statement. The APA is not stating that sexual orientation itself is fluid or can be changed. What the APA is talking about is how people self-identify and how that self-classification can change over time. This is really a reference to people who classify themselves according to their behavior rather than their actual orientation. For example, many bisexuals identify as homosexual or heterosexual depending on the gender they happen to be dating at the time rather than their actual orientation, i.e., bisexual. This is actually seen a lot in those who profess to be “ex-gays.” They claim that their “conversion therapy” was successful even though the only thing that has happened is a change in behavior. Not much of an accomplishment for someone who was already attracted to the opposite-sex to begin with.
 
TEPO said:
Obama is obsessed with reconstructing social attitudes and practices.
Click to expand...
Not only that. He, or whoever really runs the government, wants to prevent religious leaders from saying homosexual acts are sinful and should not be engaged in. That’s really what this is about. They’ll write it so loosely that they will be able to prosecute pastors for saying sodomy is sinful. And they will do it too. Remember that pastor in Houston who the city government tried to prosecute for it? They haven’t given up.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
I can see why you would be confused by that statement. The APA is not stating that sexual orientation itself is fluid or can be changed. What the APA is talking about is how people self-identify and how that self-classification can change over time. This is really a reference to people who classify themselves according to their behavior rather than their actual orientation. For example, many bisexuals identify as homosexual or heterosexual depending on the gender they happen to be dating at the time rather than their actual orientation, i.e., bisexual. This is actually seen a lot in those who profess to be “ex-gays.” They claim that their “conversion therapy” was successful even though the only thing that has happened is a change in behavior. Not much of an accomplishment for someone who was already attracted to the opposite-sex to begin with.
Click to expand...
No true Scotsman…
 
Obama administration calls for national ban on conversion therapy for minors
Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser to President Obama, said that the Obama administration supports proposed federal legislation that would ban conversion therapy for minors.
Click to expand...
“Conversion therapy generally refers to any practices by mental health providers that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation or gender identity,” Jarrett stated.
Click to expand...
It’s probably NOT called “conversion therapy” when minors are introduced to “alternative lifestyles” in their public schools … even if the minors were from families that did not believe in or practice those lifestyles … and were being converted.

Soooo … as the world bursts into flames in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya, the Ukraine, etc., etc. and Iran gets ever closer to developing an atomic bomb … THIS is what makes it to the top of the President’s inbox.

If he were running a hospital instead of the country, I think he’d make a manicurist the chief surgeon and have a looped video of nail care playing to the critical patients waiting for triage. Talk about straining at gnats!
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
No, just the facts.
Click to expand...
No, just APA’s opinion. When a body which claims to be based in science decides medical treatment based on popular vote, they’re not stating facts anymore.

And their opinion is that anyone who claims to no longer be gay was never “really” gay to begin with - the classic No True Scotsman fallacy.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
This is really a reference to people who classify themselves according to their behavior rather than their actual orientation.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how you derive that conclusion, since the statement says their orientation: “for some, sexual orientation identity (i.e., individual or group membership and affiliation, self-labeling) is fluid or has an indefinite outcome.” But, as I like to often philosophize - let’s say you were right and play out the thought experiment: If someone says they are attracted to the same sex when they subconsciously were heterosexual all along, then those people indeed could benefit from therapy, regardless of what you want to call it. As my post stated more than once, this could be effective for “some” people - not only for those who have a mental disorder about their true attractions, but for those who were abused in their youth which affected their sexual condition in adulthood. The whole matter of sexual psychology is not nearly as cut, dry, and tidy as the Obama camp would propagate.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I’m not sure how you derive that conclusion, since the statement says their orientation: “for some, sexual orientation identity (i.e., individual or group membership and affiliation, self-labeling) is fluid or has an indefinite outcome.” But, as I like to often philosophize - let’s say you were right and play out the thought experiment: If someone says they are attracted to the same sex when they subconsciously were heterosexual all along, then those people indeed could benefit from therapy, regardless of what you want to call it. As my post stated more than once, this could be effective for “some” people - not only for those who have a mental disorder about their true attractions, but for those who were abused in their youth which affected their sexual condition in adulthood. The whole matter of sexual psychology is not nearly as cut, dry, and tidy as the Obama camp would propagate.
Click to expand...
As you said, sexual orientation is not a black and white issue. These aren’t people who are “subconsciously” aware of their attractions to the opposite-sex; these are bisexuals who are consciously aware of their dual preferences, but choose to identify themselves as homosexual or heterosexual depending on their behavior, i.e. whatever gender they happen to be dating or engaging in intimate relations with. It cannot be said that “conversion therapy” is successful when all that’s happened is a change in behavior rather than orientation.
 
Like most of the social sciences these days, Obama’s call likewise follows the dictates of politics rather than any actual science.
 
Can someone describe what exactly is involved in conversion therapy? We can talk about theory all we want, but what actually goes on?
 
EIF5A said:
Can someone describe what exactly is involved in conversion therapy? We can talk about theory all we want, but what actually goes on?
Click to expand...
Some programs encourage the “patient” to associate their natural inclinations with pain by requiring that they inflict some sort of physical or emotional pain on themselves whenever they have thoughts or desires pertaining to their sexual orientation.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
Some programs encourage the “patient” to associate their natural inclinations with pain by requiring that they inflict some sort of physical or emotional pain on themselves whenever they have thoughts or desires pertaining to their sexual orientation.
Click to expand...
“Aversion therapy” is not peculiar to “conversion therapy”. It was once commonly used in behavioral psychology, particularly in addictions of other sorts, like alcohol addiction. Its popularity has waned in favor of other methods, though I believe it’s still in use somewhat.

But it is my impression that “conversion therapies” vary a great deal, from aversion therapy to spiritual guidance, to Freudian-style analysis. It isn’t a single thing.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
As you said, sexual orientation is not a black and white issue. These aren’t people who are “subconsciously” aware of their attractions to the opposite-sex; these are bisexuals who are consciously aware of their dual preferences, but choose to identify themselves as homosexual or heterosexual depending on their behavior, i.e. whatever gender they happen to be dating or engaging in intimate relations with. It cannot be said that “conversion therapy” is successful when all that’s happened is a change in behavior rather than orientation.
Click to expand...
When “orientation” is something that is either self-reported or only evident from behavior, how can one be sure that it has not changed? Or is there an objective test for homosexuality independent of behavior?
 
While we’re at it, can we get a ban on atheist conversion therapy for minors?
 
Monkey1976 said:
When “orientation” is something that is either self-reported or only evident from behavior, how can one be sure that it has not changed? Or is there an objective test for homosexuality independent of behavior?
Click to expand...
The first step would be a series of probing questions. An fMRI scan could also tell the tale.
 
No professional licensing bodies overseeing mental health practice permit therapists/counselors to practice so called “conversion therapy”.

If a counselor/therapist practices this therapy they face losing their license. Any license holder who know of a colleague using this therapy is obligated to report them to their licensing body.

Conversion therapy is not effective or ethical practice for any mental health provider. PERIOD
 
washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/13/how-a-transgender-teens-cries-for-help-on-reddit-and-tumblr-powered-a-movement-against-conversion-therapy/

If you aren’t aware Obama also went public about his disagreement with conversion therapy.
Following her death, the Transgender Human Rights Institute, an advocacy organization, started a petition on the White House Web site in January to call on U.S. government leadership to forbid licensed clinicians from practicing conversion therapy – a range of mental health practices that seek to change the sexual orientation or gender identities of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people – on minors. Psychoanalytic and therapeutic treatments for sexual orientation fell out of favor in the medical community after the 1960s, but have continued to receive support from some religious organizations and practitioners that see what they call “unwanted homosexuality” as a condition that can be cured or suppressed.
Click to expand...
The petition, dubbed “Leelah’s law,” gathered more than 100,000 signatures by April. On Wednesday, the White House responded to the petition, supporting efforts at the state level to ban conversion therapy for minors. “The overwhelming scientific evidence demonstrates that conversion therapy, especially when it is practiced on young people, is neither medically nor ethically appropriate and can cause substantial harm,” wrote Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser to President Obama.
Click to expand...
Two days after Alcorn’s death, mother Carla Alcorn gave an interview to CNN in which she referred to her child as “Josh” and said she and her husband didn’t support their child being transgender because of religious reason. “But we told him that we loved him unconditionally. We loved him no matter what.”
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top