transgenderism

[Sarcelle]

Transgender people are fully aware of what their body is and that causes them distress whereas for someone suffering from anorexia nervosa they believe their body is something to the contrary to what it is.

We haven’t found anything better in decades and the rate of regretting surgery is in fact quite low with the rate of those regretting hormone treatment in transwomen even lower.

And how many people actually get their chromosomes tested? What about chimeras? In the case of a chimera is it a preponderance of XX or XY? If a person is mostly XY chromosome, but gives birth that automatically means they are female, right? What about Klinefelter’s Syndrome where one has an XXY chromosome configuration? How about CAIS where the chromosomes are XY, but the body and mind develop as female for the most part? My point is that “XX is female, XY is male and there are no exceptions” is a rather inaccurate belief.

And what of cases of profound psychological distress, is it really unnecessary at that point?

There are people with XY makeup but lacking the SRY gene in the Y develop as females. So XX as female and XY as male will work most but not all of the time.

How hormones work in the developing brain during gestation is also not fully understood.

 

[Sarcelle]

Having been mentally ill for decades, I disagree. The medications available today are not a cure-all but they are more symptom specific than those from a decade ago. After being hospitalized twice and ending up in the Emergency Room not long ago, my medications were reviewed and a few changes were made. More media coverage is being given to people about the more common forms of mental illness. Recent research has uncovered more and more about how the brain functions, in real time.

I was there, at a major hospital, when Sexual Reassignment Surgery began there. How much patient follow-up is there? The assumption here is that the surgery is the end of the story. Few bring up the negative or unhelpful outcomes.

I think the public in general would be bettered served if the issue of Transgender involved studying the issue in depth. Instead, reading the LGBT literature, the ongoing message is ‘hate’ and ‘bigotry.’ That’s it? The APA, after years of lobbying from LGBT activists, changes its diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder and then court orders are issued regarding who gets to use which bathroom? I think the Church is not the problem here.

Ed

I disagree.

We are still not doing a good job with the mentally ill.

A friend of mine committed suicide while on psychiatric drugs.

Also you misunderstood me. We do not know what causes gender dysphoria but we should look at both organic and psychological causes in depth instead of just saying it is sin and leaving it at that.

 

[o_mlly]

It comes down to whether you are a mind that has a body or a body that has a mind.

MRI scans on transgender individuals showed their brain behaving like the gender they identify with rather than the one they were born with (i.e. a transgender man’s brain operates like a woman’s brain).

You could say that the mind is ill and needs correcting, or you could say that the body is wrong and should be modified to suit the needs of the mind.

Science relies on rational objectivity. Imagine the chaos in society loosed by those who would claim gender is now subjective and changeable – “If I feel like a woman on Monday then today I am a woman. I’ll let you know how I feel tomorrow.”

Well, you don’t have to imagine. Last May the Justice Department told public schools that as a condition of receiving federal funds, they must treat boys as girls – and vice-versa – depending on a student’s wishes. Society now has to re-invent and implement at significant cost to you and me the schools’ bathroom system for the 0.3% of the population identifying as transgender.

 

[edwest2]

I disagree.

We are still not doing a good job with the mentally ill.

A friend of mine committed suicide while on psychiatric drugs.

Also you misunderstood me. We do not know what causes gender dysphoria but we should look at both organic and psychological causes in depth instead of just saying it is sin and leaving it at that.

Who is the “we” exactly? The media? And how does anyone measure the decline or increase in any category of mental illness or disorder - say over the last 40 years?

The problem with the internet I’m going to avoid is the one example scenario. By saying someone I know committed suicide is not an overview of the reasons people in general commit suicide.

Regarding gender dysphoria, again, who is this “we”? The APA? Researchers? I did mention that research is ongoing regarding how the brain works, but it’s very complex. For example, research into one disorder showed that a key neurotransmitter was produced in lesser quantities as people age. This can occur in some, but not all people. Those who had this drop in production experienced the disorder. This was shown to be true in mice, but how long before the research moves out of the lab and into clinical trials with human beings?

I’m following new developments intently.

It’s not just about what is sinful. The Catholic Church has to understand the science and the moral implications. A few judges are forcing schools to allow a child to use whatever bathroom he wants. Based on what criteria? It’s a settled matter? Why?

Ed

 

[Peter_Plato]

It comes down to whether you are a mind that has a body or a body that has a mind.

MRI scans on transgender individuals showed their brain behaving like the gender they identify with rather than the one they were born with (i.e. a transgender man’s brain operates like a woman’s brain).

You could say that the mind is ill and needs correcting, or you could say that the body is wrong and should be modified to suit the needs of the mind.

So, apparently, minds cannot be changed or modified, but bodies can be re-jiggered for any reason including the “needs” of an ill or disturbed mind?

You don’t accept, then, the claims of people who say, “I’ve changed my mind,” because minds cannot change?

It would appear much easier, even in principle, to change minds rather than change bodies.

Unless, of course, the mind in question is stubbornly resistant to all overtures to being changed.

There was once a term for that level of resistance – muleheaded, I think – back in the day when human beings were more sensible about stuff and considered the possibility that they just might have the wrong end of an idea. Today, not so much. If someone thinks something, the entire world has to change to agree with them because changing minds is akin to changing the expansion rate of the universe.

 

[Peter_Plato]

A few judges are forcing schools to allow a child to use whatever bathroom he wants.

Ed

WE are also not doing a good job with the assignment of bathrooms, apparently.

And here WE thought it was a very simple, in fact, binary matter.

Not so, Ed!

It has suddenly become very complicated and beyond the abilities of anyone – even the judicial, educational, medical and psychiatric communities combined – to work out.

Who woulda thunk it even just a few minutes (figuratively speaking) ago?

 

[Rau]

…It would appear much easier, even in principle, to change minds rather than change bodies.

Unless, of course, the mind in question is stubbornly resistant to all overtures to being changed.

I’m not sure it’s reasonable to compare the experience of clinically established dysphoria with stubbornly holding an opinion. The sufferer has not been persuaded of some viewpoint and then bought into it. They experience it without trying. The cause is unknown. And what is amiss may have a physical (structural) element, eg. affecting the brain. It may be that rectifying the brain is also impossible, just as changing the sex as expressed in the cells of the body is impossible. Or perhaps some chemical treatment can be found that treats the brain (as is the case with clinical depression), or at least provides some relief.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

So, apparently, minds cannot be changed or modified, but bodies can be re-jiggered for any reason including the “needs” of an ill or disturbed mind?

You don’t accept, then, the claims of people who say, “I’ve changed my mind,” because minds cannot change?

It would appear much easier, even in principle, to change minds rather than change bodies.

Unless, of course, the mind in question is stubbornly resistant to all overtures to being changed.

There was once a term for that level of resistance – muleheaded, I think – back in the day when human beings were more sensible about stuff and considered the possibility that they just might have the wrong end of an idea. Today, not so much. If someone thinks something, the entire world has to change to agree with them because changing minds is akin to changing the expansion rate of the universe.

The entirety of the brain is not identical, some parts do one thing, other parts are another, similarly some parts are plastic and some parts aren’t. The brain stem for example is basically hardwired, the centers for memory on the other hand are very much malleable, that’s how memories form.

 

[edwest2]

I’m not sure it’s reasonable to compare the experience of clinically established dysphoria with stubbornly holding an opinion. The sufferer has not been persuaded of some viewpoint and then bought into it. They experience it without trying. The cause is unknown. And what is amiss may have a physical (structural) element, eg. affecting the brain. It may be that rectifying the brain is also impossible, just as changing the sex as expressed in the cells of the body is impossible. Or perhaps some chemical treatment can be found that treats the brain (as is the case with clinical depression), or at least provides some relief.

If anyone reads the text in the DSM 5 regarding Gender Dysphoria (formerly Gender Identity Disorder), it’s clear that if a person is OK with it, that means you’re fine. If you aren’t OK with it, talk to a judge and a school system that is demanding everyone to be OK with it.

There are single, celibate homosexual people who post here. But how is that possible? How is it possible for straight priests to be single and celibate? Or anyone else?

Brain mapping is ongoing. False color imaging of the brain for people with depression - and let me be clear, I am not try to make a connection - shows the different colors of different parts of the brain are dim compared to the brain of another person who is not depressed.

I am currently taking mood-altering drugs and have depression. I know, and studies show, that behavioral changes, and distress, occur if left untreated. Other chemical/drug interventions are being proposed to control moods unrelated to transgenderism, but research is still in its very early stages.

Ed

 

[Peter_Plato]

I’m not sure it’s reasonable to compare the experience of clinically established dysphoria with stubbornly holding an opinion. The sufferer has not been persuaded of some viewpoint and then bought into it. They experience it without trying. The cause is unknown. And what is amiss may have a physical (structural) element, eg. affecting the brain. It may be that rectifying the brain is also impossible, just as changing the sex as expressed in the cells of the body is impossible. Or perhaps some chemical treatment can be found that treats the brain (as is the case with clinical depression), or at least provides some relief.

I am not clear that all, or even most, cases of gender dysphoria are “clinically established.” I suspect most are nothing more than an opinion that, if not “stubbornly held,” is something very like it.

Perhaps studies ought to be done to determine the biological (structural) elements which bring about opinions in the first instance. My guess is that those actively engaged in modern studies to “clinically establish” things which are “clinically established” will conclude that pretty much every opinion is the result of physical (structural) elements and human beings are entirely comprised of physical elements, so there is no such thing as being “persuaded” of some viewpoint and then buying into it, there is just physical (structural) stuff – at least according to those same clinicians who are engaged in clinically establishing the stuff that clinicians establish.

 

[Rau]

I am not clear that all, or even most, cases of gender dysphoria are “clinically established.” I suspect most are nothing more than an opinion that, if not “stubbornly held,” is something very like it.

Perhaps every medical condition is really just a stubbornly held opinion, or something very like it.

 

[Bradski]

Then, in 1973, after being spoken against by gay activists who did not accept their findings, a vote was held. Homosexuality was removed as a disorder from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Gay people were free to live how they wanted but this vote is still in dispute.

In dispute? Only by people like you.

It isn’t classed as a disorder by every relevent medical authority in all countries of the world (with some exceptions). Those countries would inlude China.

If you want to find an an organisation that supports your view, you are going to need to check out psychiatric organisations in those exceptions. Such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Siera Leonne and other such like bastions of human rights.

These gay activists certainly get around, don’t they…

 

[Rau]

…It isn’t classed as a disorder by every relevent medical authority in all countries of the world (with some exceptions)…

But bear in mind what the substance of the “disorder” versus “not a disorder” debate is really about - see post 151.

 

[Bradski]

But bear in mind what the substance of the “disorder” versus “not a disorder” debate is really about - see post 151.

The point being made was that it is now not classed as a disorder because of ‘gay activists’ pressuring the APA. If we are to take that argument at face value, then we have to accept that all organisations in all countries around the world (except where homosexuality is actually illegal and can be punished in some places by death) have similarly been pressured into not classing it as a disorder by some world wide network of gay activists.

Or we can take the sensible view that all civilised countries on the planet do not consider it a disorder because it isn’t.

 

[Rau]

The point being made was that it is now not classed as a disorder because of ‘gay activists’ pressuring the APA. If we are to take that argument at face value, then we have to accept that all organisations in all countries around the world (except where homosexuality is actually illegal and can be punished in some places by death) have similarly been pressured into not classing it as a disorder by some world wide network of gay activists.

Or we can take the sensible view that all civilised countries on the planet do not consider it a disorder because it isn’t.

And my point is let’s be clear we understand just what criteria are applied to recognise a “disorder” before we affirm a view one way or the other. I concur with the APA’s view given the criteria used to decide what’s a disorder.

The other poster laments the APA’s decision because (whether he realizes it or not) he does not use the same criteria. Those criteria are pragmatic.

 

[BornInMarch]

Science relies on rational objectivity. Imagine the chaos in society loosed by those who would claim gender is now subjective and changeable – “If I feel like a woman on Monday then today I am a woman. I’ll let you know how I feel tomorrow.”

Well, you don’t have to imagine. Last May the Justice Department told public schools that as a condition of receiving federal funds, they must treat boys as girls – and vice-versa – depending on a student’s wishes. Society now has to re-invent and implement at significant cost to you and me the schools’ bathroom system for the 0.3% of the population identifying as transgender.

Scientists are already starting to make a distinction between sex and gender/gender identity. If someone is born with female genitals and female secondary sex characteristics, than that person’s sex is female. If that person identifies as a male, then that person’s gender/gender identity would be male.

apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

And you don’t need to worry about people switching gender identities; the people who preform gender-reassignment surgery require someone requesting such surgery to really commit beforehand (for example, someone with a female sex who identifies as male will have to explain this to their family and friends beforehand and live as the gender they identify with for at least a year).

 

[Strydersroom]

The point being made was that it is now not classed as a disorder because of ‘gay activists’ pressuring the APA. If we are to take that argument at face value, then we have to accept that all organisations in all countries around the world (except where homosexuality is actually illegal and can be punished in some places by death) have similarly been pressured into not classing it as a disorder by some world wide network of gay activists.

Or we can take the sensible view that all civilised countries on the planet do not consider it a disorder because it isn’t.

Bradski speaks words of wisdom. Well said. Well said and completely logical, sensible, and true.

 

[edwest2]

In dispute? Only by people like you.

It isn’t classed as a disorder by every relevent medical authority in all countries of the world (with some exceptions). Those countries would inlude China.

If you want to find an an organisation that supports your view, you are going to need to check out psychiatric organisations in those exceptions. Such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Siera Leonne and other such like bastions of human rights.

These gay activists certainly get around, don’t they…

I’m debating whether or not I should report this post. My view? Hardly. Personal attacks do not move any discussion along.

therapeuticchoice.com/

Yes, I’m aware of most gay activist organizations. They are global in scope.

Ed

 

[o_mlly]

Scientists are already starting to make a distinction between sex and gender/gender identity. If someone is born with female genitals and female secondary sex characteristics, than that person’s sex is female. If that person identifies as a male, then that person’s gender/gender identity would be male.

apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

I am certain that the APA’s work at this conference was not guided by the Holy Spirit. How do you know that that which claims to be science is not? When the “scientists” define their terms with words like: “attitudes”, “feelings”, “one’s sense of oneself”, “romantically attracted”. Doing so is a clear indication that these “scientists” have left the objective world and entered the realm of the subjective.

And you don’t need to worry about people switching gender identities; the people who preform gender-reassignment surgery require someone requesting such surgery to really commit beforehand (for example, someone with a female sex who identifies as male will have to explain this to their family and friends beforehand and live as the gender they identify with for at least a year).

I’m not worried about people switching gender identities. I feel sorry for their disorder and pray for healing. However, I do not want my money spent on mutilating them making me complicit in the immoral act they undertake. That does worry me.
advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/04/06/federal-judge-california-must-provide-trans-inmate-access-gender-aff

 

[edwest2]

I am not clear that all, or even most, cases of gender dysphoria are “clinically established.” I suspect most are nothing more than an opinion that, if not “stubbornly held,” is something very like it.

Perhaps studies ought to be done to determine the biological (structural) elements which bring about opinions in the first instance. My guess is that those actively engaged in modern studies to “clinically establish” things which are “clinically established” will conclude that pretty much every opinion is the result of physical (structural) elements and human beings are entirely comprised of physical elements, so there is no such thing as being “persuaded” of some viewpoint and then buying into it, there is just physical (structural) stuff – at least according to those same clinicians who are engaged in clinically establishing the stuff that clinicians establish.

It’s definitely not clear.

Ed