Transsexual pronoun dilemma

[Cabeelibob]

Can you show me some research on that? As I understand, transitioning has little effect on happiness. Suicide rate is virtually the same before and after transitions.

You also have to remember, this is transgenderism, this is transexualism.

Also, the more I think about it, knowing her, is not going to be enough to call her how she wants to be, I have to believe that she is really a man. But to say again, I haven’t been calling her anything/I’ve avoided calling her female or “Hannah.”

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I didn’t say transitioning made them happier, I said it relieved the dysphoria. There is one study that is often cited here but is misinterpreted. Here is an AMA with the researcher on the study.

Here’s another resource: Effects of Medical Interventions on Gender Dysphoria and Body Image: A Follow-Up Study

If he wants to be called Ace I don’t understand why one wouldn’t go along. Ace is almost gender neutral and was probably chosen for that reason. It seems like many who are transgender try to select names that are gender neutral or sound similar to their deadname to make it easier for family and friends.

I was called by a nickname, a diminutive of my birth name, growing up. In my early 20s I decided to be called by my birth name; it sounds better with my last name than the nickname does. It’s interesting to note who calls me by my preferred name and who doesn’t. I didn’t ask my mom or best friend to make the switch but they did. Another friend switched to her full name too but can’t be bothered to make the change for me. It’s about respect.

I do know what “transgenderism” is. Enough to know that “transgenderism” and “transsexual” are outdated and incorrect terms.

 

[Cabeelibob]

Thank you for sharing those studies.
The trouble that I have is that the change in the name is associated with the intent of leaving behind one’s sexual identity, which I think is different than gender identity. That is why I consider transexuality and transgenderality to be different things.

But perhaps you are right, and you probably are. I’m very torn on the issue. It gets to the point that I don’t find it appropriate to call her a name that is associated in such a way, and its not about disrespecting her. I indeed love her very much.

Assuming that I do start calling her by her chosen name, assuming as well that she ever lets me talk to her again, what can I do if that is not enough? I cannot lie to her and say somthing along the lines of, “Yes, you are a literally a man.”

What are your thoughts?

 

[Lou2U]

Assuming that I do start calling her by her chosen name, assuming as well that she ever lets me talk to her again, what can I do if that is not enough? I cannot lie to her and say somthing along the lines of, “Yes, you are a literally a man.”

What are your thoughts?

Perhaps you could sit down and write a letter, addressed to Ace. Write down absolutely everything - that you miss them, you feel guilty, you want to be their friend. You find it goes against your conscience to say they are a man. Just get it all out onto the pages, it’s cathartic to do so.

And then put it away in a box and come back to it, maybe after a week or longer. Read it again and see what stands out to you. You may see something new.

It may be that you find you can’t resume contact with her. But whatever you do, you need to find peace from your decision. That’s why I recommend writing it all down. Just don’t send that letter, keep it for yourself.

 

[joyfulandactive]

Here are some videos of women who have detransitioned and identified as women again after calling themselves trans men. Many of these young women were gender non-conforming and struggled to fit in with peers. As a result they were bullied and made to feel they were “doing girl wrong”. By identifying as male their behavior was completely acceptable.

So maybe the message you can give your friend is you always loved her just as she was and she can wear masculine clothes and have masculine interests and that’s absolutely fine. She doesn’t need to be male to be accepted by you just as she is. Unfortunately in our current culture there are lots of stereotypes about how men and women should act and if teens don’t identify with those stereotypes they can experience dysphoria. Also sexual abuse, trauma, bullying, grief can all cause body dysphoria. 30% of girls who identify as trans have also been found to be autistic (and a classic teen autistic trait is struggling with peer relationships).

 

[Frankie65]

OP you’ve got absolutely nothing to apologise for. It takes my breath away reading some of the comments here advising you to apologise!

You are standing up for truth…a truth which millions now readily reject. Even those who profess to follow Christ.

If friendships are lost then know you are in the pages of the Gospels where Christ foretold loss of relationships because of putting him first.

 

[joyfulandactive]

We always want to act out of a place of love. Pray a lot about this. You can probably find a balance where you use a new name but don’t say anymore - if she insists you say and accept that she is exactly the same as a born male you don’t have to go against your conscience and lie (I personally would not). Hopefully you can agree to not discuss her dysphoria and just be friends. If she finds that impossible you may have to accept that. Just keep praying for her, and let her know you love her just as she is, being a masculine woman is fine and you would love to support her as she learns to navigate the world as a masculine woman. Maybe if she ever decides to re-identify as a woman she will remember your words of love and support.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

But perhaps you are right, and you probably are. I’m very torn on the issue. It gets to the point that I don’t find it appropriate to call her a name that is associated in such a way, and its not about disrespecting her. I indeed love her very much.

I understand being torn. I looked into the topic well before two people in my life came out that they lived with gender dysphoria. It’s way different to be blindsided by this revelation. I don’t judge people’s initial reactions because it’s unexpected, and even unwanted, by loved ones.

You do know that it’s not sinful to live with gender dysphoria, yes? It’s also not a sin to transition; there isn’t a church document that says it is - most are cautionary, which is understandable, but sometimes the language is harsh which isn’t helpful. Those who get surgery are not trying to make themselves sterile but relieve their dysphoria. According to the catechism it’s not mutilation if done for therapeutic reasons (CCC 2297.)

He may not think he is a man but being male just seems to fit better. There are preferred terms but there is a lot that is difficult to put into words. For example, how do people know they are in love? How do they know that the person they married is the right one? There are a lot of ways to answer these but they rely on feeling-based words; or on the flip-side side seem calculated and cold. It might be hard for your friend to articulate what is going on in a way that you will understand. Before you ask questions of them do some reading, watch some videos. There are a ton of videos on youtube of people discussing their transitioning. There are also some about de-transitioning and why; the reasons are diverse. Why do you need to know all this? If you want to be a part of your friend’s life then you want to know as much as you can. You are going to get a lot of misinformation because so few want to understand and give dismissive answers to questions.

One of the issues behind this is that anyone who has struggled with conditions, disorders, and diseases have been treated like freaks throughout history. And today, even with the knowledge we have, we still are very ableist in how we deal with people. We “other” people who are different. And I think it’s worse when it’s related to sexuality; not only are they freaks they are perverts, too!

And if they are freaks and perverts why would we listen to them? Why would we learn to understand them and do so in a way that minimizes harm to them ? If we had been doing listening, avoiding harm for these last millennia, maybe we would have insight to the “cause” or origin, and a non-invasive means of treatment that isn’t harmful.

One more thing. You might have a lot of questions for your friend and they may even have a favorite resource to share but do your own legwork. Make 99% of your conversations about things you talked about before or new things that you want to share; not about the dysphoria unless you both are cool talking about it. Ask. Give consent if it’s okay. Say “not right now” if it isn’t.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I am sorry for the loss of your friendship.
So she’s made the decision that if you aren’t on board, there’s no more contact. That’s how it’s going to play out. Bring her to the Divine Mercy image and pray for her and those who are around her.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

That’s how it’s going to play out.

That isn’t a done deal. And it depends on what one means by being “on board.” People with gender dysphoria will start to block people when it’s harmful; deadnaming and using the wrong pronouns exacerbates the dysphoria. It’s not the moral stand or reality check that some people think it is.

 

[CRV]

According to the catechism it’s not mutilation if done for therapeutic reasons (CCC 2297.)

My understanding of this passage is
“Respect for bodily integrity
Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons , directly intended amputations , mutilations , and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91”

medical not psychological.
amputations - as in a limb due to gross injury or untreatable cancer or as a result of diabetes as examples.
mutilations - as in female genital mutilations medical reasons would be to treat horrific injury due to fire, brutal rape, cancer of the vulva etc.
sterilizations ie hysterectomies or testicle removal due to cancer therefore medical reasons.

It says “directly intended amputations , mutilations , and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.” because prior to this wording in the same #2297 it is speaking to Kidnapping and hostage taking, Terrorism and Torture - all scenarios where these are "performed on innocent persons " - are all ways that are against the moral law.

The #91 at the end of that passage refers to Denzinger EN 3722 -
" Christian doctrine has established this, and by the light of human reason it is quite clear that private individuals have no other power over the members of their bodies, and cannot destroy or mutilate them, or in any other way render them unfitted for natural functions, except when the good of the whole body cannot otherwise be provided for."

 

[Bruised_Reed]

All of that reinforces my understanding.

It says “directly intended amputations , mutilations , and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.” because prior to this wording in the same #2297 it is speaking to Kidnapping and hostage taking , Terrorism and Torture - all scenarios where these are " performed on innocent persons " - are all ways that are against the moral law.

I think of forced lobotomies here. They weren’t surgeries done with the informed consent of the patient. This is also why gender confirmation surgery shouldn’t be done on children, but surgery can be therapeutic.

Remember how rare gender dysphoria is and consider that most people with gender dysphoria do not chose surgery. And even though it’s rare I’m glad that we can discuss this. I hope that more people will think about this more and be open to how transitioning might help since people with gender dysphoria lived in pain or shame or fear in case anyone would find out. I don’t want them to get shoved back in the dark. I want them to get the care that they need and unfortunately without openness someone who cares little for them will be the designated gatekeeper, either prohibiting hormone treatment and surgery, or allowing it willy-nilly. Both extremes are likely if people aren’t willing to talk about it and especially if they aren’t willing to listen.

 

[CRV]

All of that reinforces my understanding.

private individuals have no other power over the members of their bodies, and cannot destroy or mutilate them, or in any other way render them unfitted for natural functions

Removing female breasts/vulva/wombs fits as it renders a person unfit for natural functions.

except when the good of the whole body cannot otherwise be provided for."

Meaning as in to save ones’ life e.g. cancer. Again, medical not psychological.

Sorry, but I don’t see how that reinforces your viewpoint. We’re on opposite pages then, if thats your understanding of it.

I agree they need help with their condition, but surgically changing their bodies to fit with how they see themselves I don’t think is the answer. I too have read of cases where individuals have transitioned and then have come to deeply regret, but the harm cannot be undone.

Not being a psychiatrist or MD, I don’t know how to assist an individual suffering from this, but surely therapy to help one accept/come to terms with reality is right, rather than reinforcing their perceptions of it.

God made them male and female.

Whatever happened to pick up ones’ cross and carry it?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

If you read the links I shared upthread note that transitioning lessens dysphoria, and from what I’ve witnessed improved the person’s quality of life. I don’t feel like I’m on suicide watch anymore. They’re more productive; they aren’t as self-conscious, they talk about the future in a way that isn’t tentative.

Why do people think therapy will work when it works so well for people who are gay or lesbian? Are we already forgetting how harmful both patients and therapists said it was?

Those who aren’t Christian, even some non-catholics don’t embrace the idea of a cross. From a Catholic point of view tying in TotB, in which one’s sex is supposed to inform you of your vocation, etc. or in more rad trad circles how your gender role informs what your education or lack of one you are allowed, what kind of work that is appropriate, how to parent at each stage… it just looks like a cruel joke.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

What are your thoughts? Did I do a bad thing? What should I do now?

Since you avoided referring to their gender in both pronouns and the name then there isn’t really anything wrong with what you did.

People with gender dysphoria will start to block people when it’s harmful; deadnaming and using the wrong pronouns exacerbates the dysphoria.

Are you sure that the OP actually did that? After all Cabeelibob did say

But to say again, I haven’t been calling her anything/I’ve avoided calling her female or “Hannah.”

 

[CRV]

transitioning lessens dysphoria

Because they are then changing reality to their reality.

Sadly, people commit suicide for a whole lot of reasons. We should help those who are depressed through counselling/therapy and drugs if need be.

Why do people think therapy will work when it works so well for people who are gay or lesbian?

If a person doesn’t accept reality as it is or find some way in which to be at peace with it or come to terms with it, and I am not talking about just gay & lesbian people - then no, no amount of counseling is going to help them.

Some people are called to the religious life and some are called to marriage, and some remain single through choice or circumstances. Sex decides whether you become a priest or monk, or a nun or a consecrated virgin.

I do not see in first world countries how gender determines what level of education you can obtain - I would think aptitude and financial would be the determining factors in whether an individual pursued further/higher education.

Mothers and Fathers have various gifts to give to their children, including as role models. The duties can and often do overlap when necessary, and nowadays even by choice where we have a stay at home Dad and the Mom who works.

 

[CRV]

Further thoughts

wrt therapy for Catholic gay/lesbian people, I would hope it would entail explaining why the Catholic Church teaches these ssa is disordered, and avenues to assist them live full Catholic lives, remaining chaste as we are all called to live according to our state in life. But if they can’t accept that, then they will live their lives as they wish - which is what heterosexual people do when they can’t or won’t accept the Catholic Churchs teaching on sex outside of marriage.

For non-Catholic people, well I don’t think they’d be interested in what the CC taught anyway, so these teachings are not going to affect them in any way. Though we should pray for all souls.

As I’m Catholic, I’ll stick with what the Church teaches on the morality of sex outside of marriage for any person, on homosexuality and changing the sex (normal, full and properly functioning) one is born with - as the DS EN 3722 above states.

ETA - CCC #2357-2359
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
(Bold & Italics are mine).

 

[Thorolfr]

Bruised_Reed:

According to the catechism it’s not mutilation if done for therapeutic reasons (CCC 2297.)

My understanding of this passage is
“Respect for bodily integrity
Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons , directly intended amputations , mutilations , and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91”

medical not psychological.

The distinction you draw between illnesses or conditions being medical versus psychological is not how scientists now understand such things. As Eric R. Kandel, a winner of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, notes in his new book, The Disordered Mind (pp. 21-22):

Many psychiatrists considered the brain and mind to be separate entities, so psychiatrists and addiction researchers did not look for a connection between their patients’ emotional and behavioral difficulties and the dysfunction or variation of neural circuits in the brain…

The new biology of mind that emerged in the late twentieth century is based on the assumption that all of our mental processes are mediated by the brain, from the unconscious processes that guide our movements as we hit a golf ball to the complex creative processes that underlie the composition of a piano concerto to social processes that allow us to interact with one another. As a result, psychiatrists now see our mind as a series of functions carried out by the brain, and they view all mental disorders, both psychiatric and addictive, as brain disorders.

It is no longer possible to make a distinction between an illnesses that results from an injury or dysfuntion in the heart or the kidneys, for example, and an illness or disorder or other mental condition that results from a dysfunction in the neural circuits of the brain.

 

[CRV]

It is no longer possible to make a distinction between an illnesses that results from an injury or malfunction in the heart or the kidneys, for example, and an illness or disorder or other mental condition that results from a malfunction in the neural circuits of the brain.

My sister just recently had her mitral valve replaced = physical cause. Head trauma (injury) resulting from a car accident resulting in cognitive impairment = physical cause.
Depression is due to a chemical imbalance within the brain, not an abnormality of the brain itself, but how it functions - you’re correct there in it’s malfunction - not physical injury/deformity etc.

Regardless of what science determines is the cause, at the end of the day fellow Catholics who identify in these ways are to remain chaste as I’ve pointed out in my posts above citing Church documents, as are civilly divorced Catholics until such time as an annulment is granted or the spouse dies or if single until they marry (man + woman).

 

[CRV]

psychiatrists now see our mind as a series of functions carried out by the brain, and they view all mental disorders, both psychiatric and addictive, as brain disorders.

So where does reasoning, using the intellect and employing the will enter into all this?