Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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quote from myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 :

"Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen."

This is what Zimmerman said.

On the other hand, we have the description from Martin’s girlfriend, who was on the cell-phone with Martin and was ear-witness to some of the conversation between Martin and Zimmerman. According to her, Martin asked Zimmerman, “What are you following me for?”, and then the phone from Martin’s hand fell on the ground and went silent. Martin’s girlfriend suggested that someone (Zimmerman?) pushed Martin, that’s how the cellphone fell from his hand. Obviously, the girlfriend only suggested a possibility, since she was not on the scene. She just heard what she heard through the cellphone.

Is Zimmerman telling the truth? Did Martin attack him when he was going back to his SUV? Or, did he push Martin, as Martin’s girlfriend suggests? Apparently we have no eyewitness to the crucial moments that started the physical fight. We don’t have an eyewitness who saw who hit first, who pushed first.

Then, we have this - quote from above website:

But one man’s testimony could be key for the police.

“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as “John,” and didn’t not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman’s claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point,” John said.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

But we still don’t have an eyewitness regarding who threw the first punch, who pushed or shoved first. We only have George Zimmerman’s claim and the testimony of Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend, based on what she heard through the cellphone.
 
Nobody follows a suspicous character out of “self-defense”. Even the military are not instigate trouble in order to use self-defense as an excuse to engage the enemy. I’d like to know who was calling for help on that 911 call: Zimmerman or Trayvon? If it were Trayvon, this sounds more like murder to me. But according to the latest, it sounds like Zimmerman was calling for help.
 
Pork_Roll said:
Nobody follows a suspicous character out of “self-defense”. Even the military are not instigate trouble in order to use self-defense as an excuse to engage the enemy. I’d like to know who was calling for help on that 911 call: Zimmerman or Trayvon? If it were Trayvon, this sounds more like murder to me.
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911 Call is from Zimmerman.
Screams for help witnessed while he was on the ground being beaten by Mr. Martin are from Mr. Zimmerman.

There is no law against following a suspicious character on a public road, and certainly no right to attack someone for following or even video-taping you in public. When celebs do that to photogs the media calls them psychos. When cops take cameras away from rioters or try to clear out observers hey get called fascists.

The only witness testimony about the start of violence is Mr. Zimmerman’s own. According to him, Mr. Martin chased Mr. Zimmerman down when he went to return to his vehicle and beat the daylights out of him for bothering him.

Apparently the injuries suffered by Mr. Zimmerman were consistent, at least on first review, with his story. Mr. Martin beat him in the head from behind, knocked him to the ground, got on top of him, and proceeded to beat him while he was down on the ground screaming for help. Then Mr. Zimmerman shot him.

The telling point for me is that if a non-black person responded to a young black man following him by running him down and beating him bloody while he was screaming for help (what Trayvon is alleged to have done) the race-hustlers would be screaming “hate crime” and saying the attacker “got what he deserved” if the black victim shot him.
  • Marty Lund
 
Havard said:
That said…No one should be drawing conclusions about what would constitute a just decision until the investigation is complete and the state and defense present their arguments. People should be convicted by a jury of their peers in a fair trial, not in the court of public opinion.
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At the risk of introducing yet another metaphorical reference, I can’t help but recall a scene between Pontius Pilate and the centurian in the Passion of the Christ: there is already a mob.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
I think this is a legal claim that would not find support in the law. If, say, Martin has survived and claimed that he beat Zimmerman to the ground because he was suspicious of him he would likely have been denied the claim of self defense even under the most liberal interpretaiton of Florida’s law. Even Zimmerman’s defense hinges on the claim that Martin attacked him; he could not have shot Martin merely because he was suspicious of him.
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Martin will obviously not claim self-defense because he is dead, but let’s set up this hypothetical scenario (which I’m not claiming happened, I’m just creating a hypothetical scenario where this law falls apart):
  1. Zimmerman follows Martin, they confront each other. Both are waving their arms and yelling.
  2. For either one to hit the other at this point would be unlawful force. Both have reason to fear that the other may hit them.
  3. Both now reasonably believe themselves to be in danger of imminent attack, and both are therefore legally justified in attacking each other. If Martin is stronger than Zimmerman, Zimmerman fears for his life and is legally permitted to try to kill Martin. Martin sees Zimmerman has a gun, fears for his life, and is legally permitted to try to kill Zimmerman. Neither has a duty to retreat.
Again, this is in no way an account of what I think happened, but it is one possible scenario by which two people are entitled to try to kill each other under the stand your ground law. I’m not suggesting this as a particularly turn of events.
 
Lujack said:
Again, this is in no way an account of what I think happened, but it is one possible scenario by which two people are entitled to try to kill each other under the stand your ground law. I’m not suggesting this as a particularly turn of events.
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We can invent possible scenarios until the cows come home. I understand that you don’t like the law but it is instructive how convoluted a hypothesis you must construct to justify your disagreement with it. Never let a crisis go to waste, I suppose.

Let’s return to the evidence, shall we?
 
Calgar said:
lol

So some girl who wasn’t even there and has no proof that she was even on the phone with her boyfriend is just as good as an eye witness?
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Actually there is proof she was on the phone with Trayvon Martin while this was taking place. They have the cell phone records.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
At the risk of introducing yet another metaphorical reference, I can’t help but recall a scene between Pontius Pilate and the centurian in the Passion of the Christ: there is already a mob.
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So what if there’s a mob? Are you suggesting 'if you can’t beat 'em, join ‘em?’

This isn’t Lord of the Flies Island, it’s 21st Century America. We have a duty to seek out and enforce justice.
 
catharina said:
My bank posts a sign that states:

“No sunglasses.
No hoodies.
No baseball caps.”

My bank, like most banks, has a
vested interest in confirming identiies.
I’ve never seen such a sign outside a bank.
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The banks in my part of Oklahoma, northeast, have the same signs as yours “no sunglasses, no hoods, no baseball caps.” Like you said it’s all about the identities. Oh, and by the way I also worked as a teller at one for several years so I know what I’m talking about. When it came to robberies the advise was, do what they say, and do your absolute best to confirm their identity.
 
Sabda said:
The banks in my part of Oklahoma, northeast, have the same signs as yours “no sunglasses, no hoods, no baseball caps.” Like you said it’s all about the identities. Oh, and by the way I also worked as a teller at one for several years so I know what I’m talking about. When it came to robberies the advise was, do what they say, and do your absolute best to confirm their identity.
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Yep - that’s the point:

CONFIRM IDENTITIES!

It has nothing to do with “looking suspicious”
although a poster has argued THAT is the case.
 
maryjk said:
Not only some girl that wasn’t even there, but someone that has a stake in the claim she is making.

What I meant was, that ANY witness needs to be questioned and their statements backed up by evidence.

One would think that if she was on the phone, she would have said something to someone. In addition that there should be evidence showing she was on the phone and for how long. Since Martin would have been on a cell phone.
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Cell phone records and girl’s statement have been published.
 
Pork_Roll said:
Nobody follows a suspicous character out of “self-defense”. Even the military are not instigate trouble in order to use self-defense as an excuse to engage the enemy. I’d like to know who was calling for help on that 911 call: Zimmerman or Trayvon? If it were Trayvon, this sounds more like murder to me. But according to the latest, it sounds like Zimmerman was calling for help.
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Exactly to the bolded part!

From what I understand Zimmerman had 911 on the phone the whole time. The operator told him don’t do anything. Zimmerman ignored them. Considering the fact that Martin was simply walking down the street minding his own business Zimmerman had no reason to pursuer and instigate anything with him. He choose to do it any way.

For what reason? We really don’t know. One thing that can’t be ignored is Zimmerman’s history of violent behavior. Personally I can’t blame Martin for doing his best to defend himself against his aggressor. I know if I had been in Martin’s place I would have been fighting back with everything I had. Martin had no idea what Zimmerman’s intentions where toward him. All he knew was that Zimmerman was following him.

Martin’s girlfriend called him right before the fight. Martin told her he was being followed. She then heard Martin ask Zimmerman “why are you following me?”. Five minutes later the police showed up and Martin is dead.

If Zimmerman had simply done what the operator requested Martin would still be alive today.
 
bbarrick8383 said:
Criminals typically set the standard.
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Criminals have a uniform? A skin color.

I guess minority kids like Martin wouldn’t have to worry about being followed if they didn’t wear hoddies, and didn’t put their hands in their pockets, and spoke english well, and were polite, and pulled their pants up, and, and, and.

Don’t want to “look like a criminal” you know.
 
Apparently the injuries suffered by Mr. Zimmerman were consistent, at least on first review, with his story. Mr. Martin beat him in the head from behind, knocked him to the ground, got on top of him, and proceeded to beat him while he was down on the ground screaming for help. Then Mr. Zimmerman shot him.
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Very suspicous that Zimmerman was bleeding and had injuries consitent with a beating. But if he was getting beat, how did have time to pull his gun unless Trayvon relented? We will have to wait and see what went down.
 
bbarrick8383 said:
Because it is.
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When I was in training for my teller job they tested us on being able to confirm identities. While we where doing our normal class routine the instructor had one of the office guys quickly walk into the classroom grab something off the desk and walk right back out. We where then asked to identify him to the best of our abilities.

Suspicious behavior does play a part in order to avoid trouble, but confirming the identity of someone is far more important. What good does it do to identify suspicious behavior if you can’t tell someone who it was.
 
Pork_Roll said:
Very suspicous that Zimmerman was bleeding and had injuries consitent with a beating. But if he was getting beat, how did have time to pull his gun unless Trayvon relented?
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Interesting that no one discusses what condition that Martin was in. Yes he was shot dead but I’ll bet you that Zimmerman got a few punches in as well.
 
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