Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Why is that so hard to believe? Also, was Zimmerman knocked out or just knocked down? I know the term used was “decked” and when I think of that, I think of someone being knocked down as in “hitting the deck,” but I admit that I don’t really know what it means.

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Ok.

But was Zimmerman looking like he got knocked down (or out) right after the shooting?
And yes, we need precision here----------“knocked out” or “knocked down?”
I was replying to “knocked out.” “Knocked down sounds more realistic.”
You’re right------------------------------------------------

ALL sides need to be looked like here. If that indeed happemed, then it will come light. Will change the dynamics of the case, necessarily.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

The tragic part is - when people talk to each other, politely, things usually get resolved peacefully - so, why couldn’t these two people (Martin and Zimmerman) have a nice and polite conversation? It could have been resolved so easily.

But Zimmerman’s 911 call depicts Martin as someone acting truly strangely: he “is checking out houses”, he is coming to Z’s truck to check out Z, as Z is talking on the phone. Then, according to Z, Z starts to follow him with his truck and on foot, and M runs away, however later on M returns and punches Z in the nose. This is Zimmerman’s version of the events.

However, Martin’s girlfriend presents a different version of the events. According to her version, Z is following Martin, Z catches up with M, Martin asks “what are you following me for?”, and at this point Z pushes Martin and the cell phone falls to the ground and goes silent.

To my mind, the two versions of the events are conflicting and irreconcilable, and I don’t know who’s telling the truth and whose story contains deliberate falsities.

True.

To add another level to this-----Zimmerman apparently says “he ran” and M’s girlfriend says “T said he was walking fast.” Who’s lying here?

And what Zimmerman says looked “suspicious” to him may not be what other people call “suspicious.” That’s where Z’s interpretation of what was happening opne some quarters up to a racial interpretion. Or at least “paranoid” interpretation.

This is like Rashomon for the 21st-century Florida suburbs.

Sheesh.

 

[SamH]

However, Martin’s girlfriend presents a different version of the events. According to her version, Z is following Martin, Z catches up with M, Martin asks “what are you following me for?”, and at this point Z pushes Martin and the cell phone falls to the ground and goes silent. .

The only problem with that version is that doesn’t explain how they got back to GZ’s truck. If the “fight” happened a couple blocks away from his truck it would match the story better than GZs.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Apparently his neighborhood had experienced a rash of break ins recently. Maybe he was being a responsible home owner and neighbor.

We don’t know what happened. I wish that we did. Bottom line, deadly force was used and now a young man is dead because deadly force was used against him. Perhaps it was necessary as defense because a head bashing on concrete can be just as deadly as a bullet. But, the whole horrible incident was avoidable, if only …

I wish there was clarity and truth. Unfortunately, I doubt we get that clarity and truth, considering the way things have been handled thus far.

 

[johnnyjones]

I’ll give you the fact that it may indeed NOT be the word “c–n” you hear on the tape----it’s too ambigous for it to be ever deciphered probably—unless the authorities pull out all the stops and spend money on some sophisticated sound equipment that will tease out the actual word. Whoch i doubt the authorities will in this case.

I will say, though, there IS evidence from some quarters that Zimmerman was obsessed with the security of the neighborhood and may have been taking his job as Neighborhood watch guy WAY too seriously.
His friends even admit he was heavily involved in the crime-fighting in the area.And may have been OBSESSED with it.

Maybe he got “ovezealous” (which many people are implying he did) and maybe decided to go " step beyond" his duty regarding Treyvon.

I don’t know----maybe, maybe, maybe not.

The district attorney definitely should look into ALL angles of this case----including this. Worth looking into like almost everything else here.

Your supposed to do your job as a watchman and take it seriously. He went wrong with the following but we don’t know how much following occured. Even if Martin got ****.d that he was being followed by Zimmerman, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself IF it played out like Zimmerman said.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Your supposed to do your job as a watchman and take it seriously. He went wrong with the following but we don’t know how much following occured. Even if Martin got ****.d that he was being followed by Zimmerman, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself IF it played out like Zimmerman said.

True.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

We don’t know what happened. I wish that we did. Bottom line, deadly force was used and now a young man is dead because deadly force was used against him. Perhaps it was necessary as defense because a head bashing on concrete can be just as deadly as a bullet. But, the whole horrible incident was avoidable, if only …

I wish there was clarity and truth. Unfortunately, I doubt we get that clarity and truth, considering the way things have been handled thus far.

 

[L_piperatus]

Kind og hard to believe 17-year old Martin knocked out GZ with one punch--------sorry, have you seen the photos of GZ?------------------but hey, maybe it did happen…let’s see…

It is technically possible to knock down someone with a single well-placed punch - I’ve seen it once with my own eyes. I saw a short guy knock down a taller one with a single punch (with an “uppercut” punch) to the jaw.

Here, Martin was lighter and taller than Zimmerman. Martin was 160 pounds and 6’0" according to police, while Zimmerman is 200-210 pounds and 5’9" according to his friend.

I would say it’s technically possible for a guy like Martin to knock out someone like Zimmerman. The problem is, Zimmerman’s account is in conflict with what Martin’s girlfriend suggests on the basis of her being on the phone with Martin, and we don’t have any independent eyewitnesses who would have seen the start of the fight.

 

[jen_fla]

Just as there is a witness to Martin “beating” Zimmerman, there were two women (who’ve been all over the news, in case you don’t know) who saw Zimmermann on top of Martin and acting “aggressively” towards him.

Which contradicts some statements that he made to the police.

That’s the problem here ----we have different people seeing different things. SOMEBODY is luying or at least “fitting the situation to preconceived notions.”

Some of these witnesses have come forward--------and apparently have been RIDICULED and DISMISSED by the police. Which the PTB have NOT really covered. How do you answer that?

You are also implying as well (and I’m sorry if I ruffle some feathers here-----but YES, I will go there) that the police are nice, honest, well-meaning people here with no stake in the matter. ]That, at least, is what you are implying to me------if I’m wrong, I apologize.

Sorry--------the police department in sanford has been accused of racial profiling and insensitivity before-----so yes, it could also be that they are dismissing the witnesses that don’t gibe with what THEY want to be the “official story.”

Everybody knows here that I’m as conservative as everybody else here and as Catholic as everybody else-----but I’m not as naive and “team loyal” to disregard the possibility that racism and cover-up by the police may actually be poosible here. Cops are human just like the rest of us and even they fall from great heights like everybody else.

The attorney general investigating will undoubtedly look at all angles of the story----------and she should also consider into the possibility (IF it is true) that the cops in Sanford are racist and they basically helped cover up for GZ.

I just think there was not enough investigating of both sides----particularly of GZ.

That’s what I feel.

i did read about those women and they did not see what you just reported. they heard the incident. after they heard the shot, then they went outside and saw z standing over martin or in some articles said that he had his hands on his back. again what they are saying they saw all occurred after he was shot.

and i haven’t implied anything about cops. i just asked you a simple question, but if you want to know what i feel about cops i will say (no need to imply) that some are just trying to do their job and (believe me i know) some are dirty as all get out. i haven’t decided one way or another what has happened and neither should anyone else until we get more information.

what i have said is that at this point we don not know if z came at martin after he hung up with dispatcher or if martin came at him. you seem to think z came at martin and all i wanted to know was how could you be so sure.

racism is horrible, but zimmerman’s neighbors were mixed, it was not an all white gated community as some people are claiming. for me listening to the tapes it is as plain as day that he is saying f*c**ng punks, not coons. there is a hard k sound and nothing resembling coon or goon to me. could he be a racist? sure and that would be bad, but he’d have to be a strange racist given that he has black friends, lives in a community with other blacks and mentored a black family. he also looks hispanic and i’m sure has dealt with plenty of racism himself.

again, all that matter is if z came at m or if m came at z. you have no evidence that z did that after he hung up the phone. yes, let’s all calm down and let investigators do their job.

i have to go eat dinner, but i’ll be back later if you want to continue.

peace.

 

[EasterJoy]

Your supposed to do your job as a watchman and take it seriously. He went wrong with the following but we don’t know how much following occured. Even if Martin got ****.d that he was being followed by Zimmerman, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself IF it played out like Zimmerman said.

If you take your job seriously, you still follow the instruction of the 9-11 dispatcher not to give chase. If he had listened to that direction, things might have been so much different for everyone!

 

[EasterJoy]

True.

To add another level to this-----Zimmerman apparently says “he ran” and M’s girlfriend says “T said he was walking fast.” Who’s lying here?

And what Zimmerman says looked “suspicious” to him may not be what other people call “suspicious.” That’s where Z’s interpretation of what was happening opne some quarters up to a racial interpretion. Or at least “paranoid” interpretation.

This is like Rashomon for the 21st-century Florida suburbs.

Sheesh.

People can see the same situation quite differently without anyone lying. That is what makes it so hard to sort out eyewitness (and ear witness) accounts.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Apparently his neighborhood had experienced a rash of break ins recently. Maybe he was being a responsible home owner and neighbor.

Indeed. Also could be he’s a racist guy who who went too far.

Could also be he’s a psychopath. Could be Treyvon was a lot of things too.

Like I said, this is like Rashomon for the 21st-century Florida suburbs. I tell ya, Scott, this is beyond surreal.

Like a bad movie.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

People can see the same situation quite differently without anyone lying. That is what makes it so hard to sort out eyewitness (and ear witness) accounts.

True.

Perception can be very subjective.

Good point.

 

[EasterJoy]

True.

Perception can be very subjective.

Good point.

Multiply that by ten when everyone involved was scared, upset, or both, which probably everyone was, and stirs in their past experience in for good measure. It is not the best recipe for level-headed assessment of the incoming sensory data, even by those who were actually “there” to one extent or another.

Who knows if they’ll ever figure out the full truth of what happened here. I highly doubt it. If they ever do, though, I will wager that a great many intelligent people won’t believe it, it is such a charged situation with so many other past emotional encounters stirred into it.

Trayvon Martin is dead before he was ever a man, and George Zimmerman’s life will never be the same. If this is what happens in gated communities, what can be expected elsewhere? What can be done to keep something like this from happening again? Those are the questions on my mind.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

If you take your job seriously, you still follow the instruction of the 9-11 dispatcher not to give chase. If he had listened to that direction, things might have been so much different for everyone!

To be totally honest here-----
And as has been pointed out before-----

Zimmeman says “OK” after being told not to engage the suspect----may of his friends and others take that as a sign he WAS following directions to not engage the suspect.

We may need to get back to the eyewitness testimony in this. If there is any. Also to doublecheck Zimmeman’s story and see if it is consistent.

Many are saying it has not been consistent. Nancy Grace had one of the Martin family lawyers on last night saying there was evidence that GZ’s story had changed at least three times. Which should be investigated.
Also, it needs to be looked at whether the police ignored and “covered-up” the fact that Zimmerman had been inconsistent in his story and whether they checked ALL of the witness’s veracity.

Whichever way you look at it, the police dropped the ball here. They closed the case before getting all the facts.

 

[johnnyjones]

If you take your job seriously, you still follow the instruction of the 9-11 dispatcher not to give chase. If he had listened to that direction, things might have been so much different for everyone!

Back to the circular “argument” again. HE FOLLOWED THE OPERATORS ADVICE according to the tape. If you have another tape , play it.

 

[Godfollower]

To be totally honest here-----
And as has been pointed out before-----

Zimmeman says “OK” after being told not to engage the suspect----may of his friends and others take that as a sign he WAS following directions to not engage the suspect.

We may need to get back to the eyewitness testimony in this. If there is any. Also to doublecheck Zimmeman’s story and see if it is consistent.

Many are saying it has not been consistent. Nancy Grace had one of the Martin family lawyers on last night saying there was evidence that GZ’s story had changed at least three times. Which should be investigated.
Also, it needs to be looked at whether the police ignored and “covered-up” the fact that Zimmerman had been inconsistent in his story and whether they checked ALL of the witnesses veracity.

Whichever way you look at it, the police dropped the ball here. they closed the case before getting all the facts.

Well, no. There’s no evidence that they closed the case. They simply didn’t make an arrest that night. It’s a safe bet that they took his gun away for evidence, so he presumably wasn’t going to be a danger to the community for a little while; go ahead and marshall your evidence before presenting it to the prosecutor.

Once you arrest him, the speedy-trial laws kick in, and you no longer have the luxury of gathering all the evidence you need. The clock is ticking.

So: gather the evidence first, then start the clock.

 

[L_piperatus]

If you take your job seriously, you still follow the instruction of the 9-11 dispatcher not to give chase. If he had listened to that direction, things might have been so much different for everyone!

According to Z’s friend, Z listened and complied.

According to the 911 tape, the dispatcher tells Z “OK, we don’t need you to do that” at 2’26". Z responds “OK” at 2’28", then Z tells “He ran” at 2’34". I suppose Z complied either immediately, or at 2’34" at the latest. Then, Z stays on the phone with the 911 operator until 4’01" when they finish their conversation.

According to Z, he was going back to his truck when M showed up from behind to the left side, coming after him.

Supposed that Z is telling the truth, and together with the 911 tape, this would be a case of Z no longer following M, and M coming back to confront Z at least one-and-a-half minute later (from 2’34" to 4’01") than Z’s report to the 911 dispatcher that “He ran”.

 

[maryjk]

It is technically possible to knock down someone with a single well-placed punch - I’ve seen it once with my own eyes. I saw a short guy knock down a taller one with a single punch (with an “uppercut” punch) to the jaw.

Here, Martin was lighter and taller than Zimmerman. Martin was 160 pounds and 6’0" according to police, while Zimmerman is 200-210 pounds and 5’9" according to his friend.

I would say it’s technically possible for a guy like Martin to knock out someone like Zimmerman. The problem is, Zimmerman’s account is in conflict with what Martin’s girlfriend suggests on the basis of her being on the phone with Martin, and we don’t have any independent eyewitnesses who would have seen the start of the fight.

The problem I have with the girlfriends account is that the account was given to the family lawyer, rather than the police. Last I read/heard she had not made a statement to the police. So she hasn’t been questioned about the account.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Back to the circular “argument” again. HE FOLLOWED THE OPERATORS ADVICE according to the tape. If you have another tape , play it.

Following his logic and the fact that perception CAN be subjective, though…that is what YOU interpret the “OK” as. We don’t know what Ole Zimmie meant by “OK.” Open to a lot of speculations and interpretations. Unfortunately.

And what he did immediately after saying “OK.” There needs to be rechecking and verification of that. What DID he mean by “OK?”
Thing is, I agree with EasterJoy. This is so convlouted and subjective we will probably never know.

Not circularity------just allowing to for the subjectivity of the interpretation and looking at it from ALL POVs.