Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[johnnyjones]

That’s what I think as well. I said from the beginning that I believe this to be a case of racial profiling (based on the 911 call minus the questionable slur)*** regardless*** of whether or not Zimmerman is racist. I stand more strongly by that assessment even as the parade of friends & neighbors file past.

One neighbor was very obviously bursting with rage over the idea that Zimmerman should not have pursued Martin; he was basically saying: “Come live where I do and then talk”. I get that sentiment, and I believe it based purely on profiling. He alleged that all 8 recently burglaries had been by black guys (the same or different, he didn’t say), a point made very early on by another Zimmerman defender. That, my friends, is the exact definition of racial profiling.

I could pick any crime that is predominant among a particular race and ask myself whether every stranger of that race whom I encounter in the relevant setting, would cause me to quicken my pace, close my account or pull my child out of there? The answer is no. As a minority, I do not have that dubious ‘luxury’ and so have learned to give strangers of the majority race (my area is mainly Hispanic) the benefit of the doubt and meet them with positive expectations. I cannot honestly say that there are no outward factors which would not give me pause, but certainly race would not be the main factor.

For the sake of future social harmony I suggest that it is time for people of all racial groups to similarly learn to deal with their innate fears of strangers in a different skin.

If a black man shoots another black person in a neighborhood where someone is acting suspicious, what is that called? (not to imply suspicion means shoot someone)

 

[Sarabande]

Could we say that the investigations in these cases were conducted reasonably?

I believe with all the cases of the white and black college students murdered, justice wasn’t found. The murderers were never found, which is sometimes sadly the case in areas where those murders occur. Whether or not the cases were conducted reasonably is another story. I do not know, although, I remember that the city had a huge scandal around that time where they weren’t really reporting the murder/criminal cases in order to make the city look less crime-ridden. At the time, my roommate’s boyfriend worked for the police department on campus and told us that so many of those crimes don’t really get solved or handled so well because it is just a sad part of life in that area. They were too inundated… almost like they were lost causes.

The fact remains that a kid is dead, an adult has admitted to shooting him, and, were it not for all the hoopla - that would have simply been that. That is the one FACT which outrages me - the failure, after a month, to either file charges or release a complete investigation to explain why charges were not filed.

It bears reflecting on our personal and collective attitudes, when ANY violent death can be dismissed as easily as flicking lint off a jacket; I suggest it is time to ignore distractions and focus on the questions: how and why this attitude emerged in the first place.

I completely agree with this. I don’t have a problem with the public outcry if it only focused on above. What I have a problem with is that it became about race and then escalated, creating the uproar and more hatred, in my view. It appears that is causing the outrage in this particular case, rather than the actual tragedy. To me, if they were able to focus on the actual tragedy, then it could lead to more public outcry for other tragic and violent crimes no matter what color, class, etc. they are. Now people are so caught up on racial wars, racial tension, the criminal pasts of both Martin and Zimmerman, that they have forgotten about what actually took place.

I did listen to an interview with Martin’s father on a radio station today and I was happy to hear that his father was upset about what is happening to Zimmerman’s family in regards to the death threats and also with the call for a bounty for whoever arrests Zimmerman. He made a point to say that he didn’t care about the color of Zimmerman. He just wanted justice for his son. I hope he is expressing this on other interviews.

 

[sw85]

Regarding Zimmerman’s injuries, The Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the video footage which shows what appears to be a vertical laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head:

dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

According to Zimmerman’s side of the story, Martin succeeded in hitting his head against the pavement at least once, and Zimmerman was struggling to move backwards into the grass to keep his head safe. It was during this part of the struggle that his concealed firearm became visible, Martin saw it and reached for it (supposedly threatening him with death, though I have doubts about this), and Zimmerman was forced to shoot him (the struggle for the gun explains the spent casing in the round – Martin’s gripping the magazine would’ve kept the gun from cycling).

This fact is important because it demonstrates (a) that the injury inflicted on Zimmerman by Martin need not have been grave because it was not the proximal cause of his resorting to lethal force, and (b) that there is at least some evidence for the eyewitness testimony that Martin was, in fact, attempting to dash Zimmerman’s skull against the pavement.

 

[L_piperatus]

However, scalp wounds tend to bleed copiously, and while I would not expect to see a wound pouring blood, from the description of the beating I might expect to see a couple of Steri-Strips at the minimum.

The paramedics initially wanted to stitch the wound on GZ’s scalp, but later on decided it was no longer necessary. However not all scalp wounds bleed copiously, and the point you and many others are seeming to ignore is that bashing one’s head against a hard surface can kill a person without any externally visible injuries whatsoever. There can be fracture to the base of the skull, brain hemorrhage, catastrophic increased intracranial pressure and death, without a single drop of blood visible externally.

Folks, it’s time to read up on emergency medicine or just leave the whole thing to REAL MEDICAL EXPERTS to comment on. Just as you can’t judge a book by its cover, you also can’t judge an internal injury by what’s visible externally.

If Trayvon Martin was truly bashing GZ’s head against the pavement, he could have easily killed GZ. If this is true, GZ is lucky to be alive. My friend who fell off his bicycle and bashed his head against the pavement was less lucky. He died at the age of 25, of cerebral hemorrhage caused by the shock.

The fact that the public has been left to speculate on all of this, is what most disturbs me. There is no excuse for all the facts not having been made available by the police before we things got to this stage.

I’m not sure the police have a duty to put out all information to the public, before the trial of April 10. In my mind, MSNBC stooped to a new low, by letting Martin’s parents and family lawyer comment on the GZ video as if they were medical experts or something. Martin’s parents are not medical experts and their comments are nothing but a bunch of ignorant nonsense, medically.

 

[johnnyjones]

Regarding Zimmerman’s injuries, The Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the video footage which shows what appears to be a vertical laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head:

dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

According to Zimmerman’s side of the story, Martin succeeded in hitting his head against the pavement at least once, and Zimmerman was struggling to move backwards into the grass to keep his head safe. It was during this part of the struggle that his concealed firearm became visible, Martin saw it and reached for it (supposedly threatening him with death, though I have doubts about this), and Zimmerman was forced to shoot him (the struggle for the gun explains the spent casing in the round – Martin’s gripping the magazine would’ve kept the gun from cycling).

This fact is important because it demonstrates (a) that the injury inflicted on Zimmerman by Martin need not have been grave because it was not the proximal cause of his resorting to lethal force, and (b) that there is at least some evidence for the eyewitness testimony that Martin was, in fact, attempting to dash Zimmerman’s skull against the pavement.

I said a while back that basic video cameras for surveilance are not designed for clarity. Basically they are used for documentation and “movement”. I’ve been working with them for 17 years and have missed many things because of the poor quality.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Better look, and yes the video certainly does show the officer taking a moment to look at the back of his head.

 

[seekerz]

I did listen to an interview with Martin’s father on a radio station today and I was happy to hear that his father was upset about what is happening to Zimmerman’s family in regards to the death threats and also with the call for a bounty for whoever arrests Zimmerman. He made a point to say that he didn’t care about the color of Zimmerman. He just wanted justice for his son. I hope he is expressing this on other interviews.

The very first time I heard Sybrina Fulton speak, she made a similar comment: this isn’t a black or white issue, it’s a right or wrong issue (or words to that effect). The reason it became about race is that it is very clearly (in my mind at least) an issue of racial profiling - from the moment Martin was followed, until the 3-day delay post-death.

It’s impossible to convince me that if that child had not already been tagged as a criminal, based on his appearance, they would have let him remain as a John Doe when a simple house-to-house check that very night (or a check of his phone) would have identified who he was. Sorry, not flying - the historical precedent is there.

Plus, racial profiling is not restricted to whites; in my experience, it is also a class thing in which other races, including blacks, participate. So yes, there is a definite racial component to it, though I would argue there is no sound evidence that Zimmerman hates black people or anybody else. You don’t have to hate to be racist and you don’t have to be racist to practice racial profiling. So people should relax with all the reflex sensitivity and care more that a child is dead than about their collective self-image.

 

[EasterJoy]

The fact remains that a kid is dead, an adult has admitted to shooting him, and, were it not for all the hoopla - that would have simply been that. That is the one FACT which outrages me - the failure, after a month, to either file charges or release a complete investigation to explain why charges were not filed.

It bears reflecting on our personal and collective attitudes, when ANY violent death can be dismissed as easily as flicking lint off a jacket; I suggest it is time to ignore distractions and focus on the questions: how and why this attitude emerged in the first place.

This has everything to do with the permissiveness of Florida law:
reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS416295476820120329

"A Miami man who chased a thief and stabbed him to death cannot be prosecuted because of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, a judge said in a written opinion released Wednesday.

"Greyston Garcia, 25, “was well within his rights” when he chased a man accused of stealing his car radio and stabbed the man to death, the judge ruled. The Miami policeman who supervised the case was stunned.

“How can it be Stand Your Ground?” the officer said to The Miami Herald. "It’s on [surveillance] video! You can see him stabbing the victim

"…ex-Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, who signed the law, has said it shouldn’t apply when a person chases a victim.

"But in Greyston Garcia’s case, a judge disagreed. Garcia chased the alleged car-radio thief – Pedro Roteta, 26 – for more than a block, the Herald reports. Roteta, carrying a four-pound bag of car radios, swung the bag at Garcia’s head; Garcia blocked the bag with one hand and stabbed Roteta in the chest.

"Roteta’s swinging of the bag could have caused serious bodily injury or death, and placed Garcia in fear for his life, the judge wrote.

“Still, after the fatal stabbing, Garcia did not call 911. Instead, he hid the knife and sold two of Roteta’s car radios, then initially denied the killing when interviewed by police. None of those facts played into the judge’s decision.”

Again: I don’t think this has to do with race. I don’t have reason to believe Zimmerman would have seen Trayvon differently if he had skin and hair identical to Zimmerman’s. I think this has to do with Floridians bending over backwards and beyond to give unreasonable leeway for “self-defense”. If this law stands, I’m not setting foot in Florida, and I’m certainly not letting my sons into Florida, and I don’t care if someone gives us free tickets to a Super Bowl.

 

[seekerz]

The paramedics initially wanted to stitch the wound on GZ’s scalp, but later on decided it was no longer necessary. However not all scalp wounds bleed copiously, and the point you and many others are seeming to ignore is that bashing one’s head against a hard surface can kill a person without any externally visible injuries whatsoever. There can be fracture to the base of the skull, brain hemorrhage, catastrophic increased intracranial pressure and death, without a single drop of blood visible externally.

Folks, it’s time to read up on emergency medicine or just leave the whole thing to REAL MEDICAL EXPERTS to comment on. Just as you can’t judge a book by its cover, you also can’t judge an internal injury by what’s visible externally.

If Trayvon Martin was truly bashing GZ’s head against the pavement, he could have easily killed GZ. If this is true, GZ is lucky to be alive. My friend who fell off his bicycle and bashed his head against the pavement was less lucky. He died at the age of 25, of cerebral hemorrhage caused by the shock.

I’m not sure the police have a duty to put out all information to the public, before the trial of April 10. In my mind, MSNBC stooped to a new low, by letting Martin’s parents and family lawyer comment on the GZ video as if they were medical experts or something. Martin’s parents are not medical experts and their comments are nothing but a bunch of ignorant nonsense, medically.

You seem a mite confused. That April 10th date was only given AFTER a hue and cry was raised, on MSNBC and elsewhere, over the lack of information. Without social media and the MSM, it would have been case closed today, just like with the cop’s kid beating the homeless guy and that other kid shot by security guards in the same city. There seems to be a pattern here somewhere…

 

[seekerz]

If a black man shoots another black person in a neighborhood where someone is acting suspicious, what is that called? (not to imply suspicion means shoot someone)

See post #890:

Plus, racial profiling is not restricted to whites; in my experience, it is also a class thing in which other races, including blacks, participate. So yes, there is a definite racial component to it, though I would argue there is no sound evidence that Zimmerman hates black people or anybody else. You don’t have to hate to be racist and you don’t have to be racist to practice racial profiling. So people should relax with all the reflex sensitivity and care more that a child is dead than about their collective self-image.

 

[sw85]

I said a while back that basic video cameras for surveilance are not designed for clarity. Basically they are used for documentation and “movement”. I’ve been working with them for 17 years and have missed many things because of the poor quality.

It’s pretty telling, then, how visible that gash is, even without enhancement.

 

[L_piperatus]

You seem a mite confused. That April 10th date was only given AFTER a hue and cry was raised, on MSNBC and elsewhere, over the lack of information. Without social media and the MSM, it would have been case closed today, just like with the cop’s kid beating the homeless guy and that other kid shot by security guards in the same city. There seems to be a pattern here somewhere…

Ah, we have been talking past each other. I agree with anyone pushing for a thorough investigation. I don’t agree with MSNBC’s quack job of inviting Martin’s parents and family lawyer to give their “medical expert opinion” on GZ’s injuries on the basis of a grainy surveillance tape.

 

[seekerz]

It’s pretty telling, then, how visible that gash is, even without enhancement.

His father could go them one better and release the medical report from the following day: such injuries are generally described in detail. That might also help explain whether or not, after all that head banging on concrete, first responders advised a CT.

Of course the police should have close-ups, but we know how much help they’ve already been.

 

[seekerz]

Ah, we have been talking past each other. I agree with anyone pushing for a thorough investigation. I don’t agree with MSNBC’s quack job of inviting Martin’s parents and family lawyer to give their “medical expert opinion” on GZ’s injuries on the basis of a grainy surveillance tape.

They wouldn’t have to, if we had access to the medical and autopsy reports. The media will talk as long as their is no evidence released. Arguably, that is their job. If it were my child, I would be talking 24/7 anywhere that would have me.

 

[sw85]

His father could go them one better and release the medical report from the following day: such injuries are generally described in detail. That might also help explain whether or not, after all that head banging on concrete, first responders advised a CT.

Of course the police should have close-ups, but we know how much help they’ve already been.

My question is, was there blood on the sidewalk? If there was blood on his head from being smashed there, we should expect as much.

 

[johnnyjones]

See post #890:

If it wasn’t about race the new Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, Spike lee and Jackson would’t be hollering about. To much of a rush to judgment on Zimmermans character. Why so much disregard for Zimmerman helping black familys on the side. This supported by GZs black friend. Wheres the proof of profiling? Giving a description (hoodie) of someone? Thats what a “watchman” does, give info. . Profiling is what black “leaders” are saying.

 

[seekerz]

My question is, was there blood on the sidewalk? If there was blood on his head from being smashed there, we should expect as much.

I haven’t heard any witness refer to blood - not even the kid who was walking his dog, but I may have missed it.

Point is, lack of proper investigation and release of information is what is fueling all this unnecessary speculation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

His father could go them one better and release the medical report from the following day: such injuries are generally described in detail. That might also help explain whether or not, after all that head banging on concrete, first responders advised a CT.

Of course the police should have close-ups, but we know how much help they’ve already been.

You can’t find anything by the ambulance/EMT crew. I looked, its one of the first things which came to my mind. I also thought it would be no problem to find.

 

[L_piperatus]

You can’t find anything by the ambulance/EMT crew. I looked, its one of the first things which came to my mind. I also thought it would be no problem to find.

Medical professionals are probably legally prohibited to release any information to the public.

 

[seekerz]

If it wasn’t about race the new Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, Spike lee and Jackson would’t be hollering about. To much of a rush to judgment on Zimmermans character. Why so much disregard for Zimmerman helping black familys on the side. This supported by GZs black friend. Wheres the proof of profiling? Giving a description (hoodie) of someone? Thats what a “watchman” does, give info. . Profiling is what black “leaders” are saying.

Profiling is as profiling does. Both neighbors and the ‘gut’ friend who defended him, have indicated previous robberies by black guys as justification for his concerns. Did Trayvon fit any specific description? The answer is no. What else is missing to make it racial profiling? A trail of breadcrumbs?

In case you missed it, I will assert again: you don’t have to hate to be racist, you don’t have to be racist to racially profile someone, and you can be/do both of those things even if you ‘deliver your body to be burned’ on behalf of needy black people.

The criteria for being racist/racially prejudiced, is to value people differently or treat them differently, based on race. Racial profiling means to have negative expectations (in a criminal sense) based on the race of a person.