Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[seekerz]

If Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin or had some kind of animus towards him why did he call 911 to begin with?

Why would he not? Besides, I don’t see anyone claiming that he set out initially to kill him.

 

[jen_fla]

The question is whether, if a stranger were walking through my neighborhood, I’d take it upon myself to go chasing after him, refer to him as an a****** into my cell phone, and then call it self-defense when there was an altercation and I shot him. Yet this appears to be what Florida law allows.

if it was true, that he was walking around on people’s lawns at night, then he was trespassing. i’d have no problem calling someone who was trespassing the same thing.

we don’t know for sure if he was doing that, but if indeed he was then i think he was justified in saying what he did.

 

[johnnyjones]

Why would he not? Besides, I don’t see anyone claiming that he set out initially to kill him.

So, no premeditation? Thats an important admission you made… Yes some have said or implied it was premeditated. To “hunt someone down” is highly charged premeditation. Others jump on that bandwagon.

 

[seekerz]

if it was true, that he was walking around on people’s lawns at night, then he was trespassing. i’d have no problem calling someone who was trespassing the same thing.

we don’t know for sure if he was doing that, but if indeed he was then i think he was justified in saying what he did.

If, if…there is no justification for directing profanities at anyone, let along a stranger.

 

[Faith1960]

I can get a bleeding head laceration under control in 5 minutes with lidocaine and epinephrine. And bruising takes 24-48 hours to show up. I am pretty certain they weren’t on the scene that long.

The ambulance crew clearly must be in on it, too.

 

[seekerz]

So, no premeditation? Thats an important admission you made… Yes some have said or implied it was premeditated. To “hunt someone down” is highly charged premeditation. Others jump on that bandwagon.

I’m not a lawyer, a witness or a law enforcement official, so I can’t comment on premeditation. I said there was no evidence that he initially set out to kill Martin. I have no information on whether he might have subsequently formed that intent.

This forum is not a court house.

 

[seekerz]

The ambulance crew clearly must be in on it, too.

Ah, the ambulance crew which was documented by the responding officers as caring for Zimmerman?

 

[johnnyjones]

I’m not a lawyer, a witness or a law enforcement official, so I can’t comment on premeditation. I said there was no evidence that he initially set out to kill Martin. I have no information on whether he might have subsequently formed that intent.

This forum is not a court house.

That may be your opinion but not the words of Senate members and the like. To be “hunted down and shot like a rabid dog” means premeditation. “Hunting” means theres prey to find, and “shot down” is well, shot down.

 

[jen_fla]

What if a perpetrator had been white? Would you have been suspicious of every white person you didn’t personally know (of which I assume there would have been a considerable number coming and going)?

Belonging to an identifiable minority is NOT a crime. One is free to think, but not to act based on appearance. It’s wrong and it needs to stop. I hope this movement morphs into a stop-racial-profiling-now movement which changes even the way law enforcement officers describe suspects. What defines a black or a white man anyway, “typical appearance” of the majority? How would Zimmerman have been described if someone had been calling in a report on him and didn’t know his parentage?

This ‘tradition’ is ridiculous and it ensures that people who appear ‘atypical’ from the majority of their race, have a greater chance of getting away with crime! I won’t even go into the growing number of mixed race people who could fit in multiple categories. Time to step into the 21st century and describe people according to their actual physical features (including skin complexion) and not according to increasingly meaningless ethnic categories.

if there were a string of crimes committed in my neighborhood and witnesses had said the suspects were white, and i saw a white person at night walking around on people’s lawn’s checking out their homes in the rain, then yes, i’d be totally suspicious. i don’t like trespassers and i’d probably call them ah*s myself. i know that’s not very charitable, but it would fly out i hate to admit. i would not call the person a cracker, or any other racial derogatory remark.

if trayvon wasn’t trespassing and was merely on the sidewalk then, yes i’d say that was wrong but he must have thought he was casing out the properties or else he wouldn’t have called 911. it is possible the kid wasn’t doing anything at all, but walking straight home and in that case, george would have been way out of line.

suspecting someone because of their race is wrong, but if their race happens to fit the description of someone people are trying to catch and they are engaged in some behavior that doesn’t seem innocent, then yes, you’d keep an extra eye out on them. i think people are lying to themselves if they don’t think they wouldn’t do it as well. it would be irrational not to.

i’ll be back in a couple hours, btw, gotta run.

 

[Faith1960]

My question is, was there blood on the sidewalk? If there was blood on his head from being smashed there, we should expect as much.

Not necessarily, unless, of course, Zimmerman had been moving in such a way that allowed the blood to drip down onto the sidewalk. It doesn’t matter anyway because the police (and I assume the ambulance crew) witnessed the injuries, they’re documented and we can clearly see an injury on the back of Z’s head. Anyone who is still arguing that Z doesn’t have an injury to the back of his head is just making things up and grasping at straws in order to support their side of the debate. :sad_yes:

 

[psr13]

What if a perpetrator had been white? Would you have been suspicious of every white person you didn’t personally know (of which I assume there would have been a considerable number coming and going)?

Belonging to an identifiable minority is NOT a crime. One is free to think, but not to act based on appearance. It’s wrong and it needs to stop. I hope this movement morphs into a stop-racial-profiling-now movement which changes even the way law enforcement officers describe suspects. What defines a black or a white man anyway, “typical appearance” of the majority? How would Zimmerman have been described if someone had been calling in a report on him and didn’t know his parentage?

This ‘tradition’ is ridiculous and it ensures that people who appear ‘atypical’ from the majority of their race, have a greater chance of getting away with crime! I won’t even go into the growing number of mixed race people who could fit in multiple categories. Time to step into the 21st century and describe people according to their actual physical features (including skin complexion) and not according to increasingly meaningless ethnic categories.

If there were a rash of white burglars and a white guy I didn’t recognize exhibited the same behavior, it would worry me. Not everything in this world is about race.

 

[Bezant]

Exactly.

Over 20% of American high school seniors admitted in NIH surveys that they’d used marijauna in the past month…and it was an enormous survey. Zimmerman has run-ins with his previous fiance that resulted in mutual restraining orders. It is not rare for high school students to use pot and it is also not rare that men get stuck with domestic violent arrests and restraining orders against them, even men who were not the agressors. It is all immaterial to what happened the day the shooting happened. All this digging up does is smear the reputations of the two people involved.

I expect that it’s only a matter of time before a trial. I hope that the court only admits relevant evidence, and that this evidence represents Zimmerman accurately – but more so for Martin, because he doesn’t have the benefit of telling his side of the story.

 

[Faith1960]

If Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin or had some kind of animus towards him why did he call 911 to begin with?

It’s all part of the cover-up.

 

[Faith1960]

if trayvon wasn’t trespassing and was merely on the sidewalk then, yes i’d say that was wrong but he must have thought he was casing out the properties or else he wouldn’t have called 911. it is possible the kid wasn’t doing anything at all, but walking straight home and in that case, george would have been way out of line.

suspecting someone because of their race is wrong, but if their race happens to fit the description of someone people are trying to catch and they are engaged in some behavior that doesn’t seem innocent, then yes, you’d keep an extra eye out on them. i think people are lying to themselves if they don’t think they wouldn’t do it as well. it would be irrational not to.

i’ll be back in a couple hours, btw, gotta run.

Excellent points. Some of the comments on this thread are absolutely ridiculous and just more straw-grasping.

 

[Faith1960]

Generally people that are lost, walk on the sidewalk.

Generally people who are holding a phone in their hands and are innocent of any wrongdoing while fearing for their safety and think they’re being “stalked” by a “creepy” man will use the phone they have in their hands to call 911.

 

[seekerz]

That may be your opinion but not the words of Senate members and the like. To be “hunted down and shot like a rabid dog” means premeditation. “Hunting” means theres prey to find, and “shot down” is well, shot down.

I just watched photos and video of the scene’s layout and it seems pretty clear that Trayvon was followed for a considerable distance. If someone wants to call that hunting, I guess that’s there prerogative. I’d rather stick to neutral language.

 

[seekerz]

Generally people who are holding a phone in their hands and are innocent of any wrongdoing while fearing for their safety and think they’re being “stalked” by a “creepy” man will use the phone they have in their hands to call 911.

Do you know that he didn’t call 911?

 

[Bezant]

Generally people who are holding a phone in their hands and are innocent of any wrongdoing while fearing for their safety and think they’re being “stalked” by a “creepy” man will use the phone they have in their hands to call 911.

Is that to mean that Martin did something suspicious because he didn’t call 911?

 

[seekerz]

if there were a string of crimes committed in my neighborhood and witnesses had said the suspects were white, and i saw a white person at night walking around on people’s lawn’s checking out their homes in the rain, then yes, i’d be totally suspicious. i don’t like trespassers and i’d probably call them ah*s myself. i know that’s not very charitable, but it would fly out i hate to admit. i would not call the person a cracker, or any other racial derogatory remark.

if trayvon wasn’t trespassing and was merely on the sidewalk then, yes i’d say that was wrong but he must have thought he was casing out the properties or else he wouldn’t have called 911. it is possible the kid wasn’t doing anything at all, but walking straight home and in that case, george would have been way out of line.

suspecting someone because of their race is wrong, but if their race happens to fit the description of someone people are trying to catch and they are engaged in some behavior that doesn’t seem innocent, then yes, you’d keep an extra eye out on them. i think people are lying to themselves if they don’t think they wouldn’t do it as well. it would be irrational not to.

i’ll be back in a couple hours, btw, gotta run.

You would call about a white person doing something suspicious. Trayvon was described as being suspicious without any indication he was* doing *anything suspicious. That, my friend, is the key difference. You don’t even know that he was walking on the lawns. Besides, I have lived in such neighborhoods with lawns that are practically common areas that children gather to play in.

I can’t count the number of responses tonight that have perfectly proved my point: if he had not been black (or whatever the ‘suspect’ ethnicity happened to be in that area), he would not have been followed for DOING NOTHING WRONG.

 

[Faith1960]

Do you know that he didn’t call 911?

Uh, I think we can be pretty certain of that…According to ALL the reports coming out thus far, this young man was yakking to his girlfriend on the phone at the time of the incident. When the altercation became physical TM dropped his phone, it went dead and he called no one. Do you think that with the public release of the many tapes of people calling and speaking to a 911 operator, TM called them too but the police went out of their way to hide TMs so the public would think poorly of Trayvon?