Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Sabda]

Treyvon’s parents are on Piers Morgan right now saying GZ did not look TM had beaten the c—p out of him. That is one of the reasons they suspected GZ may have been lying. And they do have a point.

Look at the video of him in the police station handcuffed. Does he look like his head was smashed against the curb?

But yes, I admit…it could be something that does not look obvious at first sight.
Let’s try and see what the investigation yields. But for the life of me, I don’t see GZ’s “injuries.”
But that’s just me.
Piers Morgan agrees with the parents’s assesment, if it matters. But then again, could be wrong.

This is so weird and frustrating.

Lord, help us.

ABC News has the same video. I can’t see where Zimmerman was injured. This is just getting weirder and weirder.

Trayvon Martin Video Shows No Blood or Bruises on George Zimmerman

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Treyvon’s parents are on Piers Morgan right now saying GZ did not look TM had beaten the c—p out of him. That is one of the reasons they suspected GZ may have been lying. And they do have a point.

Look at the video of him in the police station handcuffed. Does he look like his head was smashed against the curb?

But yes, I admit…it could be something that does not look obvious at first sight.
Let’s try and see what the investigation yields. But for the life of me, I don’t see GZ’s “injuries.”
But that’s just me.
Piers Morgan agrees with the parents’s assesment, if it matters. But then again, could be wrong.

This is so weird and frustrating.

Lord, help us.

Yes, look at him, in police custody, handcuffed and taken to the booking desk. So much for the claim that the police just let him go at the scene. Concrete evidence that he was arrested (for those who are loudly proclaiming that he wasn’t).

 

[Havard]

I say the word “goon” sometimes, I’m not much older than Zimmerman.

I never hear people say the “c” word. On the rare occasion I encounter a racist, they’ve used the “n” word.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Yes, look at him, in police custody, handcuffed and taken to the booking desk. So much for the claim that the police just let him go at the scene. Concrete evidence that he was arrested (for those who are loudly proclaiming that he wasn’t).

True.

OTOH----DO look at him, Scott----not a bruise on him (visually at least by me). And he supposedly had his head bashed against the curb by TM.
No blood, no nothing.

Seems like concrete evidence as well that somebody stretched the truth somewhat…

But then, it is just me.

Lol.

 

[Faith1960]

Yes, that was very repugnant what she did to that woman.

Even if the woman was guilty (we’ll never know) it was not Nancy Disgrace’s job to try the case on national television without a jury or lawyers.
She must have thought God Himself appointed her as the determiner of legal truth in these United States.
Gee, Nancy, DO get over yourself.

Indeed.

Nancy Disgrace? She’s known for trying people on her show without a jury.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Fair enough with the slur discrepancy, but I still think Z is completely guilty. He definitely said, “These a**holes always get away.”

 

[jen_fla]

ABC News has the same video. I can’t see where Zimmerman was injured. This is just getting weirder and weirder.

Trayvon Martin Video Shows No Blood or Bruises on George Zimmerman

looks guilty:

• no blood on his shirt
• no blood on his face
• no blood on his head
• no bruises

can’t convict him just yet:

• police officer is staring at something on the back of his head
• around 1:07 you can see a mark on the back of his head
• paramedics would have probably cleaned up the blood
• i broke my nose and only had a few tiny drops on my shirt
• bruises don’t appear right away

it doesn’t help matters that abc put a very large graphic over his head for most of the video.

you can go here and see that it’s not standard practice for them to do that for abc news exclusive clips.

abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/osama-bin-laden-dead-inside-pakistan-kill-site-13507839

regardless, this does not look good for george. does anyone know if a paramedic stated his nose was broken or if that was only the attorney making that claim?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

True.

OTOH----DO look at him, Scott----not a bruise on him (visually at least by me). And he supposedly had his head bashed against the curb by TM.
No blood, no nothing.

Seems like concrete evidence as well that somebody stretched the truth somewhat…

But then, it is just me.

Lol.

For me, just trying to be objective, it isn’t a really great video, so its hard to see “blood” and grass stains. And you can have your nose broken and it not bleed. Just like you can have your nose bleed without it being broken. According to reports, he was treated at the scene, so you may not see any blood on his face or his head, because part of the treatment would be to control bleeding and usually clean up the wounds in order to evaluate them (if my 15 years as a military field medical tech is still valid). I am not saying that what is portrayed isn’t true. Maybe Zimmerman’s story is overexaggerated. I am still on the mind that we should all just cool down and let the court system do their thing. I have no interest in stoking the fires of racial animosity. Jesse and Al do that WAY better than me. They have made careers out of it. I am more interested in helping people, ACTUALLY helping people, rather than exploiting their sense of victimization.

 

[Sabda]

True.

OTOH----DO look at him, Scott----not a bruise on him (visually at least by me). And he supposedly had his head bashed against the curb by TM.
No blood, no nothing.

Seems like concrete evidence as well that somebody stretched the truth somewhat…

But then, it is just me.

Lol.

Exactly, even if paramedics had cleaned the blood up, his nose would have been quite swollen from being broken and the gash would show up. You would see the pink/reddish skin or the bloody scab. I don’t see the swollen nose or the bloody gash. Zimmerman looks perfectly fine to me. Also, he looks quite fit. He looks perfectly capable of taking on a 6 ft, 17 yr old teenage boy to me.

 

[jen_fla]

Fair enough with the slur discrepancy, but I still think Z is completely guilty. He definitely said, “These a**holes always get away.”

but “these” could mean criminals. why do you assume he meant african americans?

obviously z thought he was a potential criminal or he wouldn’t have called 911.

 

[jen_fla]

Exactly, even if paramedics had cleaned the blood up, his nose would have been quite swollen from being broken and the gash would show up. You would see the pink/reddish skin or the bloody scab. I don’t see the swollen nose or the bloody gash. Zimmerman looks perfectly fine to me. Also, he looks quite fit. He looks perfectly capable of taking on a 6 ft, 17 yr old teenage boy to me.

i broke my nose and had nothing to show for it except a tiny red cut smaller than a cm and a few drops of blood on my shirt. the following day i had some bruising, but not too much. i wouldn’t have believed i had broken my nose, had i not seen the x ray.

i’m not defending george, just trying to share how a broken nose can appear.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

i broke my nose and had nothing to show for it except a tiny red cut smaller than a cm. the following day i had some bruising, but not too much. i wouldn’t have believed i had broken my nose, had i not seen the x ray.

i’m not defending george, just trying to share how a broken nose can appear.

Right. He was punched, not hit in the face with a crowbar. However, all things considered, it looks like shooting TM was excessive UNLESS Zimmerman and Martin were fighting for Zimmerman’s gun. From my understanding, the slide did not cycle, indicating that someone was holding the frame when the gun was discharged. If (big if) Martin was trying to get Zimmerman’s gun and Zimmerman got a shot off, then it is legitimate self-defense. Had Martin gotten the gun, this could be a story of “a black teenager who shot a hispanic man” and the whole narrative would be different.

Like I said, forensics experts, video experts, audio experts, etc… are going to pour over every detail in this case. You can be assured that every aspect of this case is going to be scrunitized to the nth degree.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, look at him, in police custody, handcuffed and taken to the booking desk. So much for the claim that the police just let him go at the scene. Concrete evidence that he was arrested (for those who are loudly proclaiming that he wasn’t).

He was taken in for questioning, but according to police accounts, he was not arrested. The police did note, however, that he had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Still, I think this is like if the police show up at a bar, and one guy has a bloody nose and the other guy is dead. The only way the shooter goes loose is if he owns the bar…maybe.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Right. He was punched, not hit in the face with a crowbar. However, all things considered, it looks like shooting TM was excessive UNLESS Zimmerman and Martin were fighting for Zimmerman’s gun. From my understanding, the slide did not cycle, indicating that someone was holding the frame when the gun was discharged. If (big if) Martin was trying to get Zimmerman’s gun and Zimmerman got a shot off, then it is legitimate self-defense. Had Martin gotten the gun, this could be a story of “a black teenager who shot a hispanic man” and the whole narrative would be different.

Like I said, forensics experts, video experts, audio experts, etc… are going to pour over every detail in this case. You can be assured that every aspect of this case is going to be scrunitized to the nth degree.

I agree. Still----from the way the police were describing this and how Zimmerman’s friends were saying-----------he was you know what up.

Also remeber----he was not authorized to apporach TM. Now whether he actually followed the dispatcher’s instructions, is up to the DA’s investigation to determine.

But still-----this needs way more insverstigating than what the police did.

Just saying.

Sooner or later, justice will prevail. In one way or another.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

He was taken in for questioning, but according to police accounts, he was not arrested. The police did note, however, that he had blood on the back of his head and his nose.

Still, I think this is like if the police show up at a bar, and one guy has a bloody nose and the other guy is dead. The only way the shooter goes loose is if he owns the bar…maybe.

Zimmerman was in handcuffs in the back of a police cruiser. His liberty was dimished. He was arrested.

“The word ‘arrest’ when used in its ordinary and natural sense, means the apprehension or restraint of a person, or the deprivation of a person’s liberty. The question whether the person is under arrest or not depends not on the legality of the arrest, but on whether the person has been deprived of personal liberty of movement. When used in the legal sense in the procedure connected with criminal offences, an arrest consists in the taking into custody of another person under authority empowered by law, to be held or detained to answer a criminal charge or to prevent the commission of a criminal or further offence. The essential elements to constitute an arrest in the above sense are that there must be an intent to arrest under the authority, accompanied by a seizure or detention of the person in the manner known to law, which is so understood by the person arrested.”

A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Arrest

“The test used to determine whether an arrest took place in a particular case is objective, and it turns on whether a reasonable person under these circumstances would believe he or she was restrained or free to go.”

Any reasonable person can draw the conclusion that Zimmerman was not “free to go”, unless you can somehow interpret being in handcuffs in the back of a police cruiser “free to go”.

 

[jen_fla]

For me, just trying to be objective, it isn’t a really great video, so its hard to see “blood” and grass stains. And you can have your nose broken and it not bleed. Just like you can have your nose bleed without it being broken. According to reports, he was treated at the scene, so you may not see any blood on his face or his head, because part of the treatment would be to control bleeding and usually clean up the wounds in order to evaluate them (if my 15 years as a military field medical tech is still valid). I am not saying that what is portrayed isn’t true. Maybe Zimmerman’s story is overexaggerated. I am still on the mind that we should all just cool down and let the court system do their thing. I have no interest in stoking the fires of racial animosity. Jesse and Al do that WAY better than me. They have made careers out of it. I am more interested in helping people, ACTUALLY helping people, rather than exploiting their sense of victimization.

very well put.

the police officer who wrote down that george was bleeding from his face and back of his head (and treated by the SFD) would have had to have been lying and had the other officers in on it too. i’m sure there were plenty of witnesses that saw his condition as well. if he lied, the SFD will bust him so i don’t doubt that he was injured. video with poor resolution just can’t pick up details. however, i’m sure george’s attorney is going to exaggerate the fight.

police report can be found here:

Slightly censored copy of the first responders’ police report available here: [cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/mart(name removed by moderator)olicreport.pdf](http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/mart(name removed by moderator)olicreport.pdf).

 

[maryjk]

I agree. Still----from the way the police were describing this and how Zimmerman’s friends were saying-----------he was you know what up.

Also remember----he was not authorized to approach TM. Now whether he actually followed the dispatcher’s instructions, is up to the DA’s investigation to determine.

What type of “authorization” did he need?

But still-----this needs way more inverstigating than what the police did.

Just saying.

Sooner or later, justice will prevail. In one way or another.

 

[johnnyjones]

You can’t tell a darn thing from that video, my experience has been those video units are not designed for detail, only movement and some degree of confirmation.

 

[Faith1960]

very well put.

the police officer who wrote down that george was bleeding from his face and back of his head (and treated by the SFD) would have had to have been lying and had the other officers in on it too. i’m sure there were plenty of witnesses that saw his condition as well. if he lied, the SFD will bust him so i don’t doubt that he was injured. video with poor resolution just can’t pick up details. however, i’m sure george’s attorney is going to exaggerate the fight.

police report can be found here:

There are plenty of people who are going to insist that all the officers are lying.

 

[EasterJoy]

Zimmerman was in handcuffs in the back of a police cruiser. His liberty was dimished. He was arrested.

“The word ‘arrest’ when used in its ordinary and natural sense, means the apprehension or restraint of a person, or the deprivation of a person’s liberty. The question whether the person is under arrest or not depends not on the legality of the arrest, but on whether the person has been deprived of personal liberty of movement. When used in the legal sense in the procedure connected with criminal offences, an arrest consists in the taking into custody of another person under authority empowered by law, to be held or detained to answer a criminal charge or to prevent the commission of a criminal or further offence. The essential elements to constitute an arrest in the above sense are that there must be an intent to arrest under the authority, accompanied by a seizure or detention of the person in the manner known to law, which is so understood by the person arrested.”

A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Arrest

“The test used to determine whether an arrest took place in a particular case is objective, and it turns on whether a reasonable person under these circumstances would believe he or she was restrained or free to go.”

Any reasonable person can draw the conclusion that Zimmerman was not “free to go”, unless you can somehow interpret being in handcuffs in the back of a police cruiser “free to go”.

So any reasonable person can see that he was put under arrest, even though the police say he wasn’t under arrest? They put him under arrest, they took him into custody, and they didn’t know it?

No. The lead investigator in the case wanted to put him under arrest, but his superiors did not believe they had probable cause to hold him. He was not put under arrest. (The mug shot, incidentally, was apparently taken at a different police department on an unrelated run-in with the law several years ago.)
csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0328/Trayvon-Martin-case-Why-hasn-t-George-Zimmerman-been-arrested-video

Apparently, if you kill the only other witness, if the authorities want to put you into prison for killing somebody, they have to prove that your account of self-defense is a lie. Apparently, they know that if you have the money for a good attorney, this is hard to do.

But yes, he was taken to the police station, even though he was not placed under arrest. I had thought arrest had the same definition that you do. The lead investigator did try to take the shooter into custody, but was overruled.

Note also the Mr. Zimmerman has some formal education in law enforcement, although he has never worked as a police officer. IMHO, this situation shows exactly why they don’t give guns to the people working security at shopping malls. A lot more people would wind up injured or killed if they did. It would lower the shrinkage at the department stores, but who thinks that would be worth it?

Incidentally: There are prior “bad acts” in the past of both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman. Those would, rightly, never be heard about if this case were to go to trial, not unless it could be demonstrated that they were relevant. Not letting their pasts color the situation either way is just.