Troy Davis makes final appeal before execution

[vz71]

He was pistol whipping a homeless man for a beer, he was ID’d by a friend of the homeless man. The policemen came to the rescue of that beating and was killed.

He also confessed to 5 people. And a van load of Airman in the drive through of Burger King ID’d him. None of those recanted. There were 34 witnesses in all.

I think you need to read the evidence.

I think you misunderstand me.
Wether or not he was guilty is not a question to me.
My contention has to do with the death sentence usage in this case.

I never claimed him a martyr, nor have I attempted to claim him innocent.
In fact, I have stayed very far away from the guilt or innocence in this argument.

The pertinent facts from my POV is that this convict was no longer a danger to anyone, and never demonstrated a danger to anyone else once he was incarcerated.
Placing him in prison for the rest of his life was a viable alternative to death, and as a pro-life Catholic, I believe that is what should have been done.

Now I understand there are circumstances in which there is no alternative to death.
But this case clearly was not one of them.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

I think you misunderstand me.
Wether or not he was guilty is not a question to me.
My contention has to do with the death sentence usage in this case.

I never claimed him a martyr, nor have I attempted to claim him innocent.
In fact, I have stayed very far away from the guilt or innocence in this argument.

The pertinent facts from my POV is that this convict was no longer a danger to anyone, and never demonstrated a danger to anyone else once he was incarcerated.
Placing him in prison for the rest of his life was a viable alternative to death, and as a pro-life Catholic, I believe that is what should have been done.

Now I understand there are circumstances in which there is no alternative to death.
But this case clearly was not one of them.

I can see why the jury gave him the death penalty. The victim was a policeman and Troy Davis had a history of shooting people.
He stood over him and shot him point blank in front of witnesses… sounds like a cold blooded murderer to me.

I hope RAH sincerley repented and May God have mercy on his soul.

Other than that… I am not losing any sleep over it.

 

[mikecrook]

I think you misunderstand me.
Wether or not he was guilty is not a question to me.
My contention has to do with the death sentence usage in this case.

I never claimed him a martyr, nor have I attempted to claim him innocent.
In fact, I have stayed very far away from the guilt or innocence in this argument.

The pertinent facts from my POV is that this convict was no longer a danger to anyone, and never demonstrated a danger to anyone else once he was incarcerated.
Placing him in prison for the rest of his life was a viable alternative to death, and as a pro-life Catholic, I believe that is what should have been done.

Now I understand there are circumstances in which there is no alternative to death.
But this case clearly was not one of them.

Monday Morning Quarterbacking has no place in this matter.

 

[SanAgustin]

What do you think about people who murder prison guards while they are already serving life sentences?

How many prison guards or fellow prisoners (that are not on death row) have been killed by death row inmates while in incarceration?

Let’s make it easy, say for the past 50 years.

Should such a serious crime just be a freebie?

So are you concerned about the safety of the guards or punishment? Maybe both? Well nobody is suggesting a “serious crime just be a freebie”, I don’t see anybody suggesting they should be let go (without evidence proving their innocence of course).

 

[Tsuwano]

What do you think about people who murder prison guards while they are already serving life sentences? Should such a serious crime just be a freebie?

One of my best friends has been in corrections for 29 years now. He started at the bottom after serving in the Navy, took college classes at night, and worked his way up to management. From his point of view, while the death penalty may not be a deterrent in the general population, it does serve a purpose among the population he has been dealing with for all that time. I would like to know that the possibility of the death penalty for that crime allows my friend to go home to my god-daughter every night, and that the other guards he now supervises would also have an increased likelyhood of returning to their families. Society owes that to the people who do such a difficult job for us.

As for the opinion of John Paul II that modern systems can protect society without resorting to the death penalty, the fact that murders do occur in prisons proves that we are not yet at that point. I am not sure that we will ever reach that goal. There is an incredible depravity in anyone who chooses to kill an innocent human being. My own opinion is that the ordinary punishment for murder should be to be locked up for as long as the victim stays dead. Those who are truly repentant can spend the rest of their lives praying for those harmed by their inexcusable behavior. For those who remain exceptionally dangerous we need to have a death penalty available.

I agree with the one line in your post where you state “There is an incredible depravity in anyone who chooses to kill an innocent human being.” I think such depravity includes those systems which execute human beings where there is doubt as to guilt. Such was the case in the execution of Troy Davis. To be honest, all violent taking of life includes such depravity.

 

[Tsuwano]

I understand that total opposition to the death penalty is what your believe, even though the Church does not teach that. Free country.

And I do understand the balancing you do in your mind of the right of the killer to life versus that of his potential future victims. That is not the Church’s view either.

I do think, though, in some circumstances, like Brewer’s for example, that is something like feeling it’s ok to shoot blind into a crowded stadium because you don’t know in advance that you will actually hit anybody.

I understand what the Church teaches about the death penalty and feel that the position of the Church is much closer to my own position than it is to the position held by those who feel the death penalty should somehow be a normal or natural part of our justice system. The Church has made clear that the death penalty should only be used in extremely rare situations when society is in imminent danger and there is no other alternative to execution. Such situations might include the collapse of government control or extremely chaotic situations. The execution of someone who has been safely incarcerated for 20 years, such as Troy Davis, does not meet the Church’s criteria and we should not pretend that it does. Indeed, no execution held in the U.S. at present meets the Church’s criteria for a just execution.

 

[Tsuwano]

Monday Morning Quarterbacking has no place in this matter.

Are you saying that society should not reflect on its use of the death penalty?

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

I agree with the one line in your post where you state “There is an incredible depravity in anyone who chooses to kill an innocent human being.” I think such depravity includes those systems which execute human beings where there is doubt as to guilt. Such was the case in the execution of Troy Davis. To be honest, all violent taking of life includes such depravity.

Read the court records and tell me if you still think there is doubt. He was guilty.

 

[Tsuwano]

Read the court records and tell me if you still think there is doubt. He was guilty.

Wiser people than me have read the court records and have expressed doubt that Mr. Davis received justice in this matter. Why do you think there is so much debate concerning Mr. Davis’s execution? Even correctional officers have expressed doubt.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

Wiser people than me have read the court records and have expressed doubt that Mr. Davis received justice in this matter. Why do you think there is so much debate concerning Mr. Davis’s execution? Even correctional officers have expressed doubt.

4 courts with judges, a jury of 12, the supreme court, a new evidence trial…
countless appeals.

Yeah… they are all blind. A few bloggers figured it all out.

 

[Tsuwano]

4 courts with judges, a jury of 12, the supreme court, a new evidence trial…
countless appeals.

Yeah… they are all blind. A few bloggers figured it all out.

You forgot numerous recantations of eye witness testimony, including someone else who claims he was the actual shooter of Mr. MacPhail.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

You forgot numerous recantations of eye witness testimony, including someone else who claims he was the actual shooter of Mr. MacPhail.

If you read the evidence you will find… that the US supreme court ordered a new evidence hearing… where these ‘recanters’ were so unbeliveable… the defense never called them, even after being directly told by the judge that the affidavits would not be considered if they did not take the stand.
and the defense never called the guy who claimed he was the shooter…
even the defense knew he was full of it.

SO although it sounds exciting to hear that people recanted and a guy claimed to be the shooter… the reality is… not even the defense believed it or they would have called them.

It was the first time in 50 years the supreme court ordered a new evidence trial.

Troy Davis confessed to 5 people as well as a bus full of airman who saw him kill the police officer. None of them recanted.

 

[Trader]

How many prison guards or fellow prisoners (that are not on death row) have been killed by death row inmates while in incarceration?

Let’s make it easy, say for the past 50 years.

So are you concerned about the safety of the guards or punishment? Maybe both? Well nobody is suggesting a “serious crime just be a freebie”, I don’t see anybody suggesting they should be let go (without evidence proving their innocence of course).

I have done searches for the murder of prison guards before and the answer returned was that no national statistics are kept for this category of murder, so I have had to find incidents of this piecemeal. For the sake of time, I only used items returned on the first page of results.

I remembered the 1971 Attica, NY prison riot resulted in the deaths of ten prison officers and civilians. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica_Prison_riot

Here is another I found in Florida from 2009:
cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/26/national/main4212047.shtml
It is directly on point as the murderer was already serving two life sentences.

Here is one from Washington in 2011:
skyvalleychronicle.com/FEATURE-NEWS/GUARD-AT-MONROE-PRISON-MURDERED-br-She-had-complained-of-feeling-unsafe-working-alone-in-the-Chapel-582220
This was a prisoner serving life without possibility of parole.

Here is a double murder from South Dakota in 2011:
blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2011/04/two-south-dakota-prison-inmates-charged-with-murder-after-guard-killed-during-escape-attempt.html
One of the accused was serving life, the other accused was serving 80 years.

This time, without mixing in other things, I repeat the question: What should be done about the murder of prison guards by people already serving life sentences? What additional punishment should they receive? Can you possibly argue that they have not been proven to be a threat even while serving life sentences?

I am concerned about the safety of prison guards. I am concerned about the murder of anyone who represents us in an official capacity. It is a direct attack on all of us. The fact that one of them is a close friend and the father of my god-daughter only makes me more aware of the problem–it does not change my opinion about whether they deserve the protection we can give them by the rare use of the death penalty in this kind of outrageous crime.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

But I have every right to point out that you dont send a message to society that killing is wrng by killing someone. I too pray for clemency for this evil murderer.

Not too many protests in Texas over the execution of a white supremacist on the same day.

Anyway, here are more useful bits of information. [Apparently he was convicted by a mostly black jury. I didn’t know that.]

anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

Not too many protests in Texas over the execution of a white supremacist on the same day.

Anyway, here are more useful bits of information. [Apparently he was convicted by a mostly black jury. I didn’t know that.]

anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html

7 black and 5 white jurors.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I have done searches for the murder of prison guards before and the answer returned was that no national statistics are kept for this category of murder, so I have had to find incidents of this piecemeal. For the sake of time, I only used items returned on the first page of results.

I remembered the 1971 Attica, NY prison riot resulted in the deaths of ten prison officers and civilians. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica_Prison_riot

Here is another I found in Florida from 2009:
cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/26/national/main4212047.shtml
It is directly on point as the murderer was already serving two life sentences.

Here is one from Washington in 2011:
skyvalleychronicle.com/FEATURE-NEWS/GUARD-AT-MONROE-PRISON-MURDERED-br-She-had-complained-of-feeling-unsafe-working-alone-in-the-Chapel-582220
This was a prisoner serving life without possibility of parole.

Here is a double murder from South Dakota in 2011:
blogs.star-telegram.com/crime_time/2011/04/two-south-dakota-prison-inmates-charged-with-murder-after-guard-killed-during-escape-attempt.html
One of the accused was serving life, the other accused was serving 80 years.

This time, without mixing in other things, I repeat the question: What should be done about the murder of prison guards by people already serving life sentences? What additional punishment should they receive? Can you possibly argue that they have not been proven to be a threat even while serving life sentences?

I am concerned about the safety of prison guards. I am concerned about the murder of anyone who represents us in an official capacity. It is a direct attack on all of us. The fact that one of them is a close friend and the father of my god-daughter only makes me more aware of the problem–it does not change my opinion about whether they deserve the protection we can give them by the rare use of the death penalty in this kind of outrageous crime.

There was an execution of a prisoner recently … a year ago? … thoroughly debated here on CAF … of a prisoner who had arranged for the death of someone outside of prison, while he was on death row.

The “final” focus of the discussion was also that … what can you do to protect innocent people when the prisoner is determined to kill others? … even from his prison cell.

Father Benedict Groeschel had stated that you could lock them up 24/7 … but by court order, no one can be locked up 24/7.

Someone once told me that in some other country or other, they do lock people up 24/7 … they are given a spacious cell, but are not allowed out for any reason until the term of their sentence is completed. And no communication with the outside world either.

 

[Trader]

There was an execution of a prisoner recently … a year ago? … thoroughly debated here on CAF … of a prisoner who had arranged for the death of someone outside of prison, while he was on death row.

The “final” focus of the discussion was also that … what can you do to protect innocent people when the prisoner is determined to kill others? … even from his prison cell.

Father Benedict Groeschel had stated that you could lock them up 24/7 … but by court order, no one can be locked up 24/7.

Someone once told me that in some other country or other, they do lock people up 24/7 … they are given a spacious cell, but are not allowed out for any reason until the term of their sentence is completed. And no communication with the outside world either.

In the USSR some prisoners were kept in a drugged state to the point they were no danger to anyone. The problem is that this is also an affront to human dignity and precludes the possibility of repentence, which are also reasonable objections to the use of the death penalty. I am not a big fan of the death penalty. I just believe that even in a modern society there are cases where the use of capital punishment is the most just solution and the best protection for the innocent that we have.

 

[oldcelt]

There was an execution of a prisoner recently … a year ago? … thoroughly debated here on CAF … of a prisoner who had arranged for the death of someone outside of prison, while he was on death row.

The “final” focus of the discussion was also that … what can you do to protect innocent people when the prisoner is determined to kill others? … even from his prison cell.

Father Benedict Groeschel had stated that you could lock them up 24/7 … but by court order, no one can be locked up 24/7.

Someone once told me that in some other country or other, they do lock people up 24/7 … they are given a spacious cell, but are not allowed out for any reason until the term of their sentence is completed. And no communication with the outside world either.

Maybe an inappropriate place to mention this…but did God know this individual would be that evil?

Discuss

John

 

[Trader]

If you read the evidence you will find… that the US supreme court ordered a new evidence hearing… where these ‘recanters’ were so unbeliveable… the defense never called them, even after being directly told by the judge that the affidavits would not be considered if they did not take the stand.
and the defense never called the guy who claimed he was the shooter…
even the defense knew he was full of it.

SO although it sounds exciting to hear that people recanted and a guy claimed to be the shooter… the reality is… not even the defense believed it or they would have called them.

It was the first time in 50 years the supreme court ordered a new evidence trial.

Troy Davis confessed to 5 people as well as a bus full of airman who saw him kill the police officer. None of them recanted.

Even his final denial was weak:

“I’d like to address the MacPhail family,” Davis said, according to The Associated Press. "Let you know, despite the situation you are in, I’m not the one who personally killed your son, your father, your brother. I am innocent.

“The incident that happened that night is not my fault,” he added. "I did not have a gun. All I can ask … is that you look deeper into this case so that you really can finally see the truth.

It sounds to me like he does not understand the felony murder rule. If you are participating in a felony crime that rusults in the death of someone, you are guilty of felony murder, even if another associate actually pulls the trigger. I do not have enough information to decide the execution of Troy Davis was necessary, but I do not doubt that he was guilty of this crime.

 

[vz71]

Are you saying that society should not reflect on its use of the death penalty?

Of course, it makes people uncomfortable.