Trump accuses Obama administration of wiretapping Trump Tower phones

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Reuben_J said:
To me it is more about being illegal. Wiretapping is illegal at this point in time without anything being brought to the open to determine why it was done. If it was justified, that’s mean there was proof, and it is likely they would exposed the treason, or whatever it was.

However, it was more of a fishing trip, spying on your political opponent to see if there was anything useful that could be used to discredit him or to bring him down. So it was dirty business there.

It is not so much that Trump was lying; we do not know if he was. But, he got valid point in wanting to know how the leak came about and somebody must be answerable to it. From all speculation, it was impossible for Obama not to know about it and if there was an order for wiretapping, he was the guy ultimately responsible.
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Where is the proof that any wiretapping occurred? Obama and the justice department have denied it. That first burden of proof is on Trump, who has produced nothing supporting his very serious accusations.

Also, accusing the former president of an ILLEGAL wiretap is ridiculous. If anything did happen (and thus far no proof that it has), it would be court-ordered by a federal judge. There would have to be an enormous burden of proof, likely treason.

Come on. Think, people.
 
Reuben_J said:
To me it is more about being illegal. Wiretapping is illegal at this point in time without anything being brought to the open to determine why it was done. If it was justified, that’s mean there was proof, and it is likely they would exposed the treason, or whatever it was.
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You may mean something other than what you actually wrote, but at face value, this doesn’t have much to do with our laws.
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
Where is the proof that any wiretapping occurred? Obama and the justice department have denied it. That first burden of proof is on Trump, who has produced nothing supporting his very serious accusations.

Also, accusing the former president of an ILLEGAL wiretap is ridiculous. If anything did happen (and thus far no proof that it has), it would be court-ordered by a federal judge. There would have to be an enormous burden of proof, likely treason.

Come on. Think, people.
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Yet you’ve made up your mind, without any evidence, that it was treason? You call that thinking?
 
I believe the Democrats are secretly hoping this wire tap thing is true. They have been floating the idea of treason out there in hopes something was listened to regarding Russia. Its their last ditch effort to come up with any evidence for their LIE that Russia influenced the election.
 
Michael68 said:
Yet you’ve made up your mind, without any evidence, that it was treason? You call that thinking?
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He/she said that IF Trump were wiretrapped pursuant to a court order, it would have to be for a very serious crime, like treason. Not that Trump definitely committed treason.
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
Where is the proof that any wiretapping occurred? Obama and the justice department have denied it. That first burden of proof is on Trump, who has produced nothing supporting his very serious accusations.

Also, accusing the former president of an ILLEGAL wiretap is ridiculous. If anything did happen (and thus far no proof that it has), it would be court-ordered by a federal judge. There would have to be an enormous burden of proof, likely treason.

Come on. Think, people.
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Neither Obama nor the Justice Department denied categorically that Trump Tower phones and computer were hacked. Obama simply said he didn’t “order” the FBI to do it (which is always true, and not the way it works) and the DOJ has not said one way or the other.
 
Michael68 said:
Yet you’ve made up your mind, without any evidence, that it was treason? You call that thinking?
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It would have to be a very, very serious charge with ample evidence. Treason is the most obvious that comes to mind.

The converse is Trump is just lying and trying to deflect from the damning Russian ties he knows will soon be released as a result of the Intelligence Committee.

This is all very embarrassing for our country.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Neither Obama nor the Justice Department denied categorically that Trump Tower phones and computer were hacked. Obama simply said he didn’t “order” the FBI to do it (which is always true, and not the way it works) and the DOJ has not said one way or the other.
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Not refuting this. We are in agreement. The tone of many of the other posts (and Trump’s tweet) made it seem like they believed Obama was directly responsible, which is simply impossible.
 
Michael68 said:
I believe the Democrats are secretly hoping this wire tap thing is true. They have been floating the idea of treason out there in hopes something was listened to regarding Russia. Its their last ditch effort to come up with any evidence for their LIE that Russia influenced the election.
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So the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence (agencies involved in the intelligence probe), are ALL running a smear campaign?
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
So the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence (agencies involved in the intelligence probe), are ALL running a smear campaign?
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That’s some strong cool aid.:bigyikes:
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
So the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence (agencies involved in the intelligence probe), are ALL running a smear campaign?
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What else? You really think this is fair? Remember who just ran all these departments? Remember who has gone so far as to use the IRS as a weapon?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Neither Obama nor the Justice Department denied categorically that Trump Tower phones and computer were hacked. Obama simply said he didn’t “order” the FBI to do it (which is always true, and not the way it works) and the DOJ has not said one way or the other.
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So if it turns out that the FBI had conducted surveillance pursuant to a FISA warrant, but did it without Obama’s knowledge or involvement, what do you think that would mean?
 
Michael68 said:
What else? You really think this is fair? Remember who just ran all these departments? Remember who has gone so far as to use the IRS as a weapon?
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I’d really like to see some proof from you regarding this assertion, because it is QUITE the assertion.

Otherwise, I am inclined to believe Trump is lying. As he has done in the past.

Strong Kool-Aid indeed.
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
I’d really like to see some proof from you regarding this assertion, because it is QUITE the assertion.

Otherwise, I am inclined to believe Trump is lying. As he has done in the past.

Strong Kool-Aid indeed.
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Yes an assertion, just like Russia influenced the election. That is also just an assertion and QUITE the assertion
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
It would have to be a very, very serious charge with ample evidence. Treason is the most obvious that comes to mind.

The converse is Trump is just lying and trying to deflect from the damning Russian ties he knows will soon be released as a result of the Intelligence Committee.

This is all very embarrassing for our country.
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One main issue is if there were FISA orders as reported by the MSM (denied by Clapper) and if there was intentional violations and misuse of FISA. The use of FISA to obtain surveillance is very limited and especially against US persons (need to have evidence of criminal espionage).

If you read this article it outlines the problems and FISA laws clearly and under what conditions they can be sought.
lawnewz.com/high-profile/yes-obama-could-be-prosecuted-if-involved-with-illegal-surveillance/

The other issue is that intelligence agencies have said there is no evidence of any connection between Trump or Trump’s associates and Russia. So, this means that they didn’t have enough information for probable cause to get a warrant for investigation in front of a FISA court, so why was one granted and then also what was the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network exactly investigating?

If a FISA warrant was obtained (by potential misuse) it’s very likely Obama through his daily intelligence briefing, or in a call from Loretta Lynch, or the director of the FBI, would be given a heads up. The NYT also reported that intelligence reports based of some of the wiretap communications had been given to the White House.
 
Michael68 said:
Yes an assertion, just like Russia influenced the election. That is also just an assertion and QUITE the assertion
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Also an assertion that the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence deemed worthy enough to investigate via a lengthy, time-consuming probe.

I find it very dangerous to side with a single thin-skinned man with questionable conflicts of interest as opposed to the agencies I previously listed.
 
flowerz4rabbits said:
Also an assertion that the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Justice Department, the Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and representatives of the director of national intelligence deemed worthy enough to investigate via a lengthy, time-consuming probe.

I find it very dangerous to side with a single thin-skinned man with questionable conflicts of interest as opposed to the agencies I previously listed.
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If they have stated there is no evidence of any connections which they have, then how did they obtain a warrant for surveillance (if you believe all the reports in the MSM)? Do you see the BIG potential problem here? Obama’s admin also tried to obtain a warrant through Article III, and use of a federal court (typical means) but they were denied (either by the court of FBI), so clearly again there was no evidence or lack of any evidence of wrongdoing.
 
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