Trump administration to execute three inmates

[godisgood77]

The Magisterium makes it clear, this is a false equivalence between the death penalty and abortion, who are all innocent.

Agree fully. This discussion is not about abortion, it’s about the death penalty. I hope no one is arguing that abortion and the death penalty are on equal footing a pro-life issues.

However, the death penalty is a life issue and opposing its use is part of being pro-life. The same can be said for euthanasia and other issues.

 

[KMC]

I have a limited number of levers:

1. I can vote
2. I can teach / speak

I do try to use them both, and I try to use them in line with our faith.

Blessings!

 

[billsherman]

I try to use them in line with our faith.

I have no doubt that you, like me, try your best.

Keep trying! That’s the only thing we can do in the end.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

I struggle with the death penalty and the new direction of the Church. The Catholic in me cringes at this news. The secular me cheers it.

 

[godisgood77]

I struggle with the death penalty and the new direction of the Church. The Catholic in me cringes at this news. The secular me cheers it.

Hopefully, the Catholic you wins out.

 

[Victoria33]

In the US, it seems the death penalty is weighted towards the Bible belt. Tennessee, Texas, Florida, Louisiana and so on have it. Ohio has it and they are a bit of an anomaly but I believe they delayed carrying out more executions. Some Christians might argue an eye for an eye and yes, you could tell them that has changed and that is an Old Testament view or something.

Still, for 2020, 8 executions carried out this year. 3 in TX, 1 in GA, AL, TN, MO and AR.

22 for 2019, 1 in South Dakota, the rest were pretty much, Bible Belt states again.

Execution Database | Death Penalty Information Center

The Death Penalty Information Center (DPI) is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to serve the media, policymakers, and the general public…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

One may check out stats at the death penalty information center.

So, there is a real geography on this topic. I think I remember the South Dakota penalty. Much rarer then.

Most states do not use it. Of course, these were Federal executions.

 

[Pattylt]

I am not a fan of Trump. Even though I think his anti abortion stance is a sham, I appreciate his sticking with it and appearing at the pro life rally. I am also anti death penalty and it’s one of the platforms I feared when he was elected. Now…of all times!..he is bringing it back. Why? Is this another appeal to his base? Have the US people been screaming for more death penalties to be performed? Is this part of the law and order he’s pushing? Is it to distract us from Covid gaining ground again? I just can’t see the reason for this at this point in time!

 

[Mrchatsworth]

It doesn’t really matter. I’m not pulling the switch and I don’t know the people and I wasn’t the major victim of the crimes.

In one way they have the advantage many of us will not have. They know the time of thier death and have the opportunity to go to God with a forgiven soul. Many of us could die today and not have the advantage of a heads up to get right with God.

 

[cjsm93]

As someone who is pursuing a career in the criminal justice field, I just want to say to those who oppose the death penalty…if you were exposed to the true brutality and depravity that some of these violent offenders are capable of, you might change your mind. It is evil that you cannot possibly understand until you’ve dealt with it first hand.

Abortion is the taking of an innocent life. Conversely, a criminal has made a series of choices that led him to his cell and to the moment of lethal injection. Hardly the same issue.

 

[Ender]

I find it very sad that a Catholic would hold that view given the magisterium of Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis on the topic.

I console myself with the knowledge that mine is the doctrine expressed by virtually all of the Fathers and Doctors of the church, plus popes for 2000 years. That is, this is the doctrine of the church. The current opposition is a judgment about the advisability of the use of capital punishment in today’s circumstances. I have still not heard an argument explaining why I should repudiate the doctrine in favor of an opinion based on temporary circumstances.

However, the death penalty is a life issue and opposing its use is part of being pro-life.

The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. (Catechism of Trent)

Preventing murder is surely a pro-life concept, so if the use of capital punishment is considered to be “an act of paramount obedience to this commandment which prohibits murder”, how is it not rightly considered a pro-life activity?

I understand: how can taking a life be considered pro-life? Well, in the obvious sense it can’t, but in a fuller sense it is. Surely you would consider protecting the lives of others a pro-life action, and that would be true even if you had to use lethal force, so the “mere” fact of taking a life does not disqualify an act from being pro-life. It is the context of the act that is important, not simply the act taken in isolation.

 

[billsherman]

if you were exposed to the true brutality and depravity that some of these violent offenders are capable of . . . It is evil that you cannot possibly understand until you’ve dealt with it first hand.

And those are exactly the people we need to work the hardest to love. It’s easy to love innocent babies - I’ve never know a politician who didn’t want to get their picture taken with babies - but it’s hard to love the worst of what humanity has to offer. God commands us to love them, and God means what he says.

 

[billsherman]

Surely you would consider protecting the lives of others a pro-life action, and that would be true even if you had to use lethal force, so the “mere” fact of taking a life does not disqualify an act from being pro-life.

According to this logic, it would be pro-life to murder everyone on the planet. That would prevent all future murders (and abortions!). It would also be pro-life to go back in time and abort Hitler.

Pro-life doesn’t compromise. You’re making a utilitarian argument that can be used to justify the most monstrous of evil (“we needed to kill those Muslim children before they grew up and killed us!”).

 

[Ender]

According to this logic, it would be pro-life to murder everyone on the planet.

At least try to understand the argument. Answer this: is defending the lives of others a pro-life act even if the aggressor is killed? Yes or no.

 

[billsherman]

At least try to understand the argument.

I apologize for responding to your post. There is nothing either of us can gain by engaging with one another.

As clergy have advised you on this forum, I suggest you seek out your priest or bishop for further guidance. Consider that my answer to all of your questions.

 

[Cathoholic]

Your title is false.

 

[Ender]

There is nothing either of us can gain by engaging with one another.

I don’t engage you so much as I engage your arguments, such as this one referring to people who commit truly heinous crimes:

“And those are exactly the people we need to work the hardest to love.”

Fine, but what does that mean in practice? Whether we love them and forgive them doesn’t mean their punishment should be eliminated, or even diminished. The severity of the punishment is not determined by our feelings toward them, but by the severity of the crime they committed. The issue here which has not been addressed is the matter of justice. This is why the church teaches that the severity of the punishment must be commensurate with the severity of the crime - and this is not altered by our attitude toward the criminal.

 

[cjsm93]

Murderers, kidnappers, rapists, arsonists, human traffickers, pedophiles…if we truly care about life, then we need to put an end to those individuals who threaten it. It wasn’t until 2018 that the Church, under one of the most liberal popes in the history of Catholicism, really started to pursue the abolishment of the death penalty.

You can love and forgive someone, and still seek justice for his or her victims. Have you ever visited a prison? I have. And the inmates have nothing but time on their hands to come up with different schemes to wreak havoc and provoke the guards. I have a good friend who was a corrections officer, with an emphasis on “was.” He was violently attacked a number of times, several of which required surgery. He eventually retired a physically and mentally exhausted man.

Some are truly remorseful, but many are repeat offenders. And many like to inflict pain. They enjoy it and there’s no rehabilitating someone who is stimulated by watching another human being suffer. These are the people who deserve to be put down. Otherwise, they will keep causing more pain and loss in society. To further put it into perspective, it’s like saying “Ted Bundy shouldn’t have been executed. He needs our love.”

 

[godisgood77]

Seems this thread has gone of the rails…

I’'ll just add this… The Trump administration’s aggressive pursuit to reintroduce the death penalty in 2020 America is an atrocity and is contrary to the Catholic Church’s teaching. I don’t see how anyone could argue that there were not alternatives in the case of the man who was cruelly executed this week and the other that are scheduled to be put to death.

I encourage you to read through this link… http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...paign-to-end-the-use-of-the-death-penalty.cfm

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. . . . I renew the appeal I made . . . for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary.
—Pope John Paul II Papal Mass, St. Louis, Missouri , January 27, 1999

Then to go the Catechism and learn about how the Church’s teaching has developed on the topic.

Maybe say a prayer

Then come back and try to justify the killing of the man this week

 

[godisgood77]

And the inmates have nothing but time on their hands to come up with different schemes to wreak havoc and provoke the guards.

Our rehabilitation system should not have inmates sitting around scheming. There has to be a better way. Rehabilitate or punish?

It wasn’t until 2018 that the Church, under one of the most liberal popes in the history of Catholicism, really started to pursue the abolishment of the death penalty.

Not remotely true. Please reference the other post with links to Church / Death Penalty… It did not start with the liberal (so called Pope)… I think you meant Catholic Pope

 

[Ender]

The Trump administration’s aggressive pursuit to reintroduce the death penalty in 2020 America is an atrocity and is contrary to the Catholic Church’s teaching.

Was capital punishment an atrocity when it was applied by the Papal States? Was it an atrocity when God commanded its use by the Israelites? How is it an atrocity now but not in the 2000 years when the church unambiguously acknowledged it as legitimate? Was church doctrine mistaken? Was she teaching error?

As to whether it is contrary to church teaching now that’s actually hard to say given the ambiguity as to what is actually being taught.

Then to go the Catechism and learn about how the Church’s teaching has developed on the topic.

The catechism is actually unhelpful in understanding this topic. The 1997 version was unclear, and the 2018 change is worse.

Catholic teaching on capital punishment is in a state of dangerous ambiguity. The discussion of the death penalty in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is so difficult to interpret that conscientious members of the faithful scarcely know what their Church obliges them to believe. Although the constant teaching of the Church has been that the state has a right to impose the death penalty, the Catechism declares that the actual circumstances in which capital punishment is legitimate are “practically nonexistent.” Moreover, the Catechism weaves doctrine so tightly together with prudential and factual judgments that it is not at all clear how much of its discourse on capital punishment actually is being put forward as binding Catholic teaching. (R. Michael Dunnigan, J.D., J.C.L., 2003)