Tuam Mother and Baby Home in Ireland: the Trouble With the Septic Tank Story (Story is a Hoax)

[Memaw]

I think that’s their favorite pastime. God Bless, Memaw

 

[estesbob]

I didn’t intend my comment about the sinner/sinner distinction to be interpreted like it was. In one of his talks, Dr. Kreeft makes the point that modern society has exactly the opposite problems of ancient society. Ancient society was very good at pointing out evils and explicitly condemning them as evil. The problem is that in the course of condemning evil they would ostracize and castigate those individuals who performed these actions. A good comparison would be the way that homosexual were treated in the past.

In Ireland we see that those woman who conceived outside the bonds of marriage were shamed, ostracized and outcast. That’s something (I’m hoping) we can both agree. The use of the love/hate was reference to the famous dictum “love the sinner and hate the sin”.

I’ve never said that Gospel doesn’t have plenty to say about loving the sinner. That doesn’t necessarily mean that individuals priests chose to emphasize those passages or apply them to this social issue. I’ll tell you what. I will gladly concede you’re right if you can show me **any evidence at all **that Church in Ireland made a widespread campaign to lessen social stigma surrounding these women. Given the severity of the problem, it should have warranted at least as much response as the immigration issue. The USCCB has been very vocal and very public about their opposition to same-sex marriage and abortion. Was there a comparable movement by the Irish Catholic bishops is response to this problem?

It’s not that there were some bad attitudes or that a minority of individuals felt this way. By all accounts this was the prevailing attitude in Ireland. Claiming that the Church tried and failed to counter this attitude would be akin to claiming that the Church is completely incapable of influencing the Irish people (untrue, as we saw with attitudes surrounding abortion). In circumstances where people rebel against Church authority (e.g. contraception, homosexuality, abortion) we note that there is a motivating factor for that rebellion.

In this case we aren’t so lucky. Let me ask you this question. Why were the Irish so vehemently opposed to pregnancy outside of marriage it wasn’t for the Church in Ireland? Are you saying that it’s complete coincidence that the Irish strongly opposed behavior that was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church? These attitudes had to come from somewhere.

Ultimately, the Church is a victim of Her own power. When you have the kind of power that Church wielded in Ireland, the wielder of that power gets the credit for the good and the bad. Either you’re claiming that the most powerful, influential institution in Ireland was incapable influencing the attitudes of its members on an issue of sexual morality or you’re forced to concede that the Church failed to act in the interest of a marginalized segment of Irish society.

Funny how we have went from “The Church starved children to death and threw them is a septic tank” to "The Church didn’t speak out enough against disapproval of unwed mothers. " Of course the Church was the one who took them, gave them food and shelter and provided their children with an education. But its never enough in some peoples eyes.

 

[Tuskar_Rock]

…Let me ask you this question. Why were the Irish so vehemently opposed to pregnancy outside of marriage it wasn’t for the Church in Ireland? Are you saying that it’s complete coincidence that the Irish strongly opposed behavior that was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church? These attitudes had to come from somewhere.

I’ve posted on this issue in this thread already (#14). If one says the Irish attitude to unmarried motherhood (shame, concealment) originated with the Church, that leaves a great deal of explaing to be done on the parallel and related attitude of the Irish people to *other *forms of difference.

For instance: I’m particularly well aware that at the same time as these Homes were in existence, mental illness, indeed mental handicap of all kinds, was also the object of shame and concealment. Indeed, the proportion of the population incarcerated in Mental Hospitals (and people dumped in County Homes, which were former Workhouses, for a wide variety of reasons) was truly extraordinary.

Worse still, the amount of infanticide, concealment of birth and related matters going on was truly exceptional, as has lately been revealed, and will no doubt be added to the range of matters investigated in what we all hope will be a cathartic excercise.

Don’t forget, similar attitudes to “illegitemacy” were current in Britain and parts (at least) of the US, as posters here have testified already. I should not be surprised to hear that it was so in other nations too. The broader, but to my mind related, exceptional Irish *treatment *of both “transgressives” *and *those who were “different” for whatever reason, requires explanation. It’s truly inadequate, insufficient and inequitable to in my view to blame the Church *solely *for this state of affairs.

Not that I’m a betting type, but I’d confidently wager the roots of all this go back quite a long way, and are a sociological consequence of our history. Even more I believe, our present political culture and attitudes to the rule of law and justice are related to this as well.

We are what we are because we were where we were. I agree with Archbishop Diarmuid Martin on all of this; in a spirit of truth and honesty, comprehensively investigate, admit all wrongdoing, make peace with the past, and learn some lessons for the future thereby. The victims of past injustice require no less.

 

[Dawnia]

In this case we aren’t so lucky. Let me ask you this question. Why were the Irish so vehemently opposed to pregnancy outside of marriage it wasn’t for the Church in Ireland? Are you saying that it’s complete coincidence that the Irish strongly opposed behavior that was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church? These attitudes had to come from somewhere.

I don’t think it’s that simple. Society is influenced by many things. Ireland was not that much different from the rest of western civilization in it’s attitudes toward societies “undesireables”, There were a lot of bad ideas during the time period the home was open, like Eugenics. There is no way, Ireland escaped being influenced by that swill. People in the Church aren’t immune from a society’s bad ideas.

I recall hearing tales of the 1st black priest in the US. He experienced a lot of racist attitudes from other priests and members of the laity. The Church can only be an influence if people let it be.

 

[Modern_Revert]

This issue has inspired me to begin training as an Advocate for a pregnancy crisis center our parish is sponsoring.

 

[estesbob]

This issue has inspired me to begin training as an Advocate for a pregnancy crisis center our parish is sponsoring.

I did it for five years.Very rewarding but very emotionally draining

 

[Dawnia]

This issue has inspired me to begin training as an Advocate for a pregnancy crisis center our parish is sponsoring.

Great idea.

 

[abucs]

I’ve never said that Gospel doesn’t have plenty to say about loving the sinner. That doesn’t necessarily mean that individuals priests chose to emphasize those passages or apply them to this social issue.

Don’t you see the change of your words. You are going from saying the Church as a whole should be condemned for the prevalent attitude in Ireland to now saying that INDIVIDUAL priests MAY not have applied gospel readings to this issue. When challenged you retreat to this much weaker position, ask for evidence against the possibility of your weaker position and if none s produced you want to assume you are correct and then jump back to the stronger assertion that the Church s a whole should be condemned for the prevalent attitude. The logic you are using is incorrect.

I’ll tell you what. I will gladly concede you’re right if you can show me **any evidence at all ** that Church in Ireland made a widespread campaign to lessen social stigma surrounding these women. Given the severity of the problem, it should have warranted at least as much response as the immigration issue. The USCCB has been very vocal and very public about their opposition to same-sex marriage and abortion. Was there a comparable movement by the Irish Catholic bishops is response to this problem?

Again you are creating a false position in your logic. You are comparing a situation of today which is 1) current 2) immersed in a plethora of recordable electronic media and 3) a time of mass communication with decades ago where priests verbally addressed parishioners.

I ask you again to think about your logic. If I fail to produce as much evidence that the Church spoke out against rape 30 years go compared to the CC speaking out against gay marriage today, does that mean the Church was complicit in the attitudes causing rapes which occurred 30 years ago?

It’s not that there were some bad attitudes or that a minority of individuals felt this way. By all accounts this was the prevailing attitude in Ireland. Claiming that the Church tried and failed to counter this attitude would be akin to claiming that the Church is completely incapable of influencing the Irish people (untrue, as we saw with attitudes surrounding abortion). In circumstances where people rebel against Church authority (e.g. contraception, homosexuality, abortion) we note that there is a motivating factor for that rebellion.

.

We have to distinguish between the valid attitude that sex outside of marriage leading to children without supporting fathers is a bad thing for society against the charge that people who went down this wrong path should be hated and ostracised from society.

You contradict yourself here and again your logic is quite wrong.

Controlling outcomes and influencing outcomes are completely different. Again I point out that if the CC controlled society the way you are imagining they did there would have been no murder, no rape, no theft and nobody going hungry.

You don’t seem to want to distinguish between the valid attitude of pointing out that such behaviour is wrong and bad for society with the leading of a mass movement which wants to hate and exclude such people who behaved that way.

The very fact that the Church spent so much money and time helping these people is an open and shut case that they did not hate them.

In this case we aren’t so lucky. Let me ask you this question. Why were the Irish so vehemently opposed to pregnancy outside of marriage it wasn’t for the Church in Ireland? Are you saying that it’s complete coincidence that the Irish strongly opposed behavior that was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church? These attitudes had to come from somewhere.

This is another example of you not distinguishing. There is a difference between recognising something is bad for society and organising a hate campaign against the people who behave such a way. Regarding the first situation, yes the CC was completely correct in pointing out what every long term successful society in the world has found out. Sex outside of marriage leading to children without supporting fathers is detrimental to society. Of course it is. Of course the CC were correct in pointing this out. Just as they pointed out many other actions and behaviours are bad for society.

In many ways a redistribution of wealth in developed countries today hides the fact of how socially destructive such behaviour is.

The true cost is transparently evident in societies that are not rich enough to subsidize bad behaviour. Go to any developing country and see the financial and personal problems such behaviour causes.

Either you’re claiming that the most powerful, influential institution in Ireland was incapable influencing the attitudes of its members on an issue of sexual morality or you’re forced to concede that the Church failed to act in the interest of a marginalized segment of Irish society.

Again there is a world of difference between influencing and controlling.

Logic !!!

Providing the charity, leadership and example of giving warnings, advice, comfort, homes, food, warmth, jobs and education for such people cannot in any way be classified as failing to act in the interests of such people.

Logic !!!

You seen to be working under the false assumption that pointing out the wrongness of a certain behaviour is controlling peoples minds to hate.

In believing this, you also ignore all the evidence to the contrary regarding this group of people providing enormous charity to the very people who were disadvantaged by their own behaviour.

The very behaviour that they were warned about.

 

[Memaw]

This issue has inspired me to begin training as an Advocate for a pregnancy crisis center our parish is sponsoring.

Good for you!! Something like this true or not true, can bring the good out of some and gossip out of others. God Bless, Memaw

 

[jeb53]

I know this subject has been brought up before, but I thought this an interesting read. Perhaps we shouldn’t jump to conclusions when these stories come out.

ncregister.com/daily-news/commentator-dismisses-crazed-claims-about-ireland-child-burials/

 

[HollyDolly]

I think we need to find out what the authorities uncover in their investigation.
Do I think that all the stories are lies,no.I do think there is truth to them .
So we should err on the side of caution. However nothing would surprise me,since one can see how far reaching the child sex abuse scandal is in the Church.

 

[pianistclare]

Thank you for sharing this. We in America like to think these things don’t happen. They do, and they did. We find our own babies in dumpsters behind abortion clinics. If people from every culture and nation respected one another, were not ashamed of their pregnant daughters, and were not made to feel damaged, shunned and unwanted, none of these things would happen in any country, much less a Catholic one. I don’t believe there is any nation can withstand the relentless finger pointing.
One day, we’ll learn to actually practice Gospel values.
Forgiveness. It’s always about forgiveness.
God bless.

 

[Memaw]

Thank you for sharing this. We in America like to think these things don’t happen. They do, and they did. We find our own babies in dumpsters behind abortion clinics. If people from every culture and nation respected one another, were not ashamed of their pregnant daughters, and were not made to feel damaged, shunned and unwanted, none of these things would happen in any country, much less a Catholic one. I don’t believe there is any nation can withstand the relentless finger pointing.
One day, we’ll learn to actually practice Gospel values.
Forgiveness. It’s always about forgiveness.
God bless.

Would be nice if we all wait till the truth comes out before we prejudge anyone. Times were different then. Babies and small children died here in America too at about the same rate because of many sad conditions, epidemics, etc. We in America have no room to criticize, because we kill millions of babies in the most grotesque way by abortion and most seem to care less. God have Mercy on us all. Memaw

 

[pianistclare]

Would be nice if we all wait till the truth comes out before we prejudge anyone. Times were different then. Babies and small children died here in America too at about the same rate because of many sad conditions, epidemics, etc. We in America have no room to criticize, because we kill millions of babies in the most grotesque way by abortion and most seem to care less. God have Mercy on us all. Memaw

Isn’t that basically what I said?

 

[tawny]

Would be nice if we all wait till the truth comes out before we prejudge anyone. Times were different then. Babies and small children died here in America too at about the same rate because of many sad conditions, epidemics, etc. We in America have no room to criticize, because we kill millions of babies in the most grotesque way by abortion and most seem to care less. God have Mercy on us all. Memaw

Amen.

 

[boomerang]

I’m glad we’re finally getting some news that these horrible stories aren’t as horrible as first thought. I knew there had to be more to the story than what was reported in the main stream media. Now if they would only start reporting on the retractions to this story, that would be wonderful, but you and I know they won’t. Anything that exonerates the Catholic Church never gets reported.

 

[Miserissima]

The US also had its share of “homes.” My aunt was sent to one after she fell pregnant in the 50s, Long Lane School For Girls in Middletown, CT.

The decline of Long Lane from an institution with high hopes of providing a home away from home for troubled girls to a catch-all facility for kids with as diverse problems as pregnancy to larceny charges was well noted in the local and state press. wesleyanargus.com/2013/09/23/long-lane-pt-2/

She said in her day, there were nuns, but I’m having difficulty finding more info on that. And yes, the baby was given up for adoption and her family was in court for four years to get the child back.

 

[Memaw]

I think we need to find out what the authorities uncover in their investigation.
Do I think that all the stories are lies,no.I do think there is truth to them .
So we should err on the side of caution. However nothing would surprise me,since one can see how far reaching the child sex abuse scandal is in the Church.

Seems some one always has to throw this up in the face of the Church no matter what the subject. How do you think this makes the good and holy priests feel? The Church is made up of many sinners including us. So we shouldn’t constantly throw stones don’t you think??? Even tho there are many sinners included in the Church, we can trust the Teaching Authority of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church to bring us through every crisis as She has done so in the past. Like Jesus said, ’ Let those without sin, cast the first stone!’ God Bless, Memaw

 

[Kittylover777]

The story may be false, but the damage is done.

carolinefarrow.com/2014/06/07/tuam-breaking-800-babies-were-not-dumped/

Sad but true. So many comments under the article mentioned by the OP are saying that the Catholic church is now “covering up” the original story. There seems to be an awful lot of anti Catholicism in Ireland these days, not only in the media but amongst many Irish people in general.

 

[tomarin]

If the story is a hoax, I expect the BBC et al will apologize? (Just kidding.)