two JWs at my door today.

[ElizabethPH]

Well…I got a phone call yesterday which I thought was from a political worker. She started asking me how I feel about the war in Iraq and how war is against the scriptures (I told her to call Bush) etc. and then I questioned her as far as who she is and how she got my number. She said she was a JW bible teacher (oh great) and she got my number from a list at a library (?!) I told her I had no time to speak and had to go, bye. I’m now afraid she will call some other time. I don’t know how to match wits with a JW Bible teacher. Watch out, now they are calling people on the phone and sounding like political canvasers!

They also are sending stuff in the mail. I sent them back a Catholic tract. Which they won’t read any more then I would read theirs; and a waste of a 41 cent stamp! But it made me fill good to do it.

 

[bobzills]

Wait, is it OK provided we cut down our Christmas trees with a chain saw rather than an ax?
.

No, because you are violating the spirit of the law in any case.

 

[geraldffff]

Dear Kay Cee,

Thus, the fact that Jesus is called a savior doesn’t prove he is YHWH anymore than David, Ehud, Othniel being called savior would make them YHWH.

YHWH has simply sent people as saviors to help his people.

Thanks for your question.

bible steve
I deleted your many lines of bible quotes that go off in a dozen different directions. If you read the Bible as it was 1600 years before the Watchtower started changing words in it you will not be able to escape one truth. You must decide if Jesus is the biggest bull shittier in history or you must decide he and the Father are one in the same. Because Jesus makes it clear he and the father are one. You cannot deny that Jesus created all that was created. It’s that simple. You choose the complicated twisted road because there is something in you that makes you uncomfortable about taking the strait and narrow path. I pray for you and my brother to look for and be able to accept the truth.

 

[BibleSteve]

Okay, BibleSteve has posted a response to Gara3987’s questions…Does Gara3987 care to respond?

Kay Cee,

I thought you told me you wanted the questions answered. Were you just fooling me and acting as a messenger for Gara3987? What is your response to the answers?

 

[BibleSteve]

You must decide if Jesus is the biggest bull shittier in history or you must decide he and the Father are one in the same. Because Jesus makes it clear he and the father are one.

One what? One in terms of what? Let’s let Jesus answer:

At John 17:21,22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added,* “that they may be one even as we are one.”** He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

You cannot deny that Jesus created all that was created. It’s that simple.

Yes, of course. YHWH created all there is **through **Jesus and **for **Jesus.

If you tell me you have accomplished something through and for , it is simple to understand what you mean. You were working through someone else.

In this case YHWH used his only-begotten Son as the master worker in creating all other things, that is, all things besides Jesus himself. (Proverbs 8:27-30)

You choose the complicated twisted road because there is something in you that makes you uncomfortable about taking the strait and narrow path. I pray for you and my brother to look for and be able to accept the truth.

And I also hope the same for you.

This “I and the Father are one” sort of proof text that Jesus must be YHWH is pretty silly. Just let Jesus explain what he meant.

 

[heisenburg]

Bible…

Just a quick question… I am confused by some of your statements and simply want to clarify. Do you believe that Jesus, the son of God, was created by God?

Not saying to instigate anythign. I am honestly asking…

In Christ

 

[Kay_Cee]

Kay Cee,

I thought you told me you wanted the questions answered. Were you just fooling me and acting as a messenger for Gara3987? What is your response to the answers?

I wanted the questions answered because I thought they would make a good discussion. They are not my questions; they are Gara3987’s. I was not acting as a messenger. I have not had any communication with Gara except for posting on this thread.

I’m not interested in getting involved in the debate–I don’t have the time to do more than read it and certainly not the time to do any research. I just thought they were good questions which deserve a response.

Now I would like to see what Gara has to say.

In other words, I was just reading the thread, saw some questions that went unanswered, and asked that they be responded to. That’s all.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Jesus and God are one:
John 10:30: "I and the Father are one.

John 14:9 “He who has seen me has seen the Father”

John 5:18 The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God

 

[BibleSteve]

Bible…
Just a quick question… I am confused by some of your statements and simply want to clarify. Do you believe that Jesus, the son of God, was created by God?
Not saying to instigate anythign. I am honestly asking…

In Christ

Thank you heisenburg, I appreciate your gentle question.

Yes, Jesus was created by YHWH… Everything and Everyone else was created “through Jesus and for Jesus”

The scriptures identify Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” and “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14)

Jesus also confirmed that:

(John 6:57) … I live because of the Father…

Lastly, we have the prophetic/symbolic description of Jesus as "wisdom personified at Proverbs 8:22-31

How do we know that the description of wisdom at Proverbs 8:22-31 applies to Jesus Christ in his prehuman existence?

The inspired description of wisdom found in the book of Proverbs reads: “YHWH himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. ... Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains ... When he prepared the heavens I was there; ... then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, ... and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”

This passage cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of YHWH’s way. YHWH has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1,*2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person.—Proverbs 8:1.

The book of Proverbs says that long ago wisdom was beside YHWH, the Creator, as “a master worker.” That certainly applies to Jesus.

Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was the One who revealed YHWH’s wise purposes and decrees. During his prehuman existence, Jesus was God’s Word, or Spokesman. (John 1:1) He is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1*Corinthians 1:24,*30) What a beautiful description of the Son of God, whose fondness for mankind moved him to give his life as a ransom in their behalf!—John 3:16.

 

[DustinsDad]

There is no argument that Jesus spoke of some going to heaven. He also spoke of those who will live on the earth:

Inheriting the earth is part of inhereting the Kingdom of God. Those who reign with God in Heaven also inhereit the earth for God’s kingdom is over all, all is God’s. When we become members of the Body of Christ, we become sons and daughters of God…fellow heirs with Christ.

(Matthew 5:5) "Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Yes - and all are poor in spirit are “mild tempered”, so those who inherit the Kingdom of God, ipso facto inherit the earth .

(BTW - I cringe with the banal translations of the NWT, are we discussing the Beatitudes or the Happitudes?)

(Continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

This wasn’t a new idea: (Psalm 37:10-11) And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11*But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament - and as always, with the fullness of Revelation came with Christ in the NT, He fufills the OT in ways above and beyond what mankind could fathom on a strctly natural level. Thus we see that inhereting the earth - created stuff - as good as that is - is merely one aspect of inhereting the Kingdom of God - the Creator (for in the Kingdom of God, we “get” God Himself - the Beautific Vision). The new earth is included in the Kingdom of God - as is “exquisite delight” and “abundance of peace.”

The thing is, the JWs reject and deny what Christ offers (because they have forsaken supernatural faith). choosing instead to focus on the creature rather than the creator. And that, my friend, is not new…it’s as old as the Garden.

John the Baptist told us - “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!” (Matthew 3:2)

And the King separates mankind into two groups - one group to be with Him forever - the other to be cut off from Him forever:

*Matthew 3:12
*His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15).

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

*Revelation 21:27
*There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

There is no third “earthly” class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose “reward is great in heaven” (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, “As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens” (Phil. 3:20).

(Continued…)

 

[DustinsDad]

Those who do go to heaven will have a specific purpose for doing so:
(Revelation 5:9-10) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

And as such, we see that the earth is part of the KINGDOM, because the earth has a King - the Lord God Almighty…and those who have been incorporated into the Divine Life participate in that Kingship with Him. There is no kingdom apart from the Kingdom of God, and there is no kingship apart from the King of Kings and Lord of Lords - Our Lord and King, True God and True Man - Jesus Christ.

As sharers in the Kingship of Christ, we inheret that which we rule over.

Further, the following verses all demonstrate that all faithful Christians inhereit the Kindgom of God - the New Heavens and the new earth to be more precise.

2 Corinthians 5:1;
For we know, if our earthly house of this habitation be dissolved, that we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:4-5
Hearing your faith in Christ Jesus, and the love which you have towards all the saints. For the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, which you have heard in the word of the truth of the gospel,

1 Peter 1:1-5
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, **Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, **Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.
.

If you’re going to have a group of people ruling as kings and priests over the earth, you might think there are some people on the earth.

Same people in both because - those who are in the Kingdom with God participate in that Kingdom and are with God in that Kingdom - and that Kingdom is the new heavens and the new earth - God is in both, as are those with Him. .

(2 Peter 3:13) But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

Indeed - as the Scripture states, the righteous will dwell in the new heavens and the new earth. The new heavens and new earth are awaiting us accoriding to His promse - and the beatitudes are included in the promise.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Anyone who preframes a question by insulting me and my religion isn’t showing signs of sincerity.

Seems pretty obvious.

Especially after talking to thousands of people over many years.

You tend to be able to notice those interested in civil discussion and those who just want to insult.

Steve , are you a catholics forum ’ plant ’ ? I must ask because if you were a real JW then you wouldn’t be debating on this forum !!! It’s strictly VERBOTEN by your governing body , The Watchtower Society ! Incidentally , I work with two JW’S and they are the most respectful people in our building…in fact in terms of tolerance towards Catholics they leave the ’ born-agains ’ way , way behind.
I hope you find whatever answers you are looking for…but please at least answer SOME of the questions posted for you…we are all here to learn !
Blessings , Dave.

 

[BibleSteve]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BibleSteve
If you’re going to have a group of people ruling as kings and priests over the earth, you might think there are some people on the earth.

Dustin’sDad: Same people in both because - those who are in the Kingdom with God participate in that Kingdom and are with God in that Kingdom - and that Kingdom is the new heavens and the new earth - God is in both, as are those with Him. .

Huh?

So you are going to heaven and you’re going to be a King. You are also going to be a priest. And you’re going to be a King and Priest **over **the earth. (Rev 5:9, 10)

Who do you think is going to be living on the earth?

(Psalm 37:9-11) For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

 

[StBenMom]

Jesus also confirmed that:

(John 6:57) … I live because of the Father…

So do I. However, it does not mean that I can twist biblical passages to fit my own agenda… which is what BibleSteve has going on here. His own agenda. Can’t people be curious as to what you believe without you belittling them or trying to “convert” them? How in the world can someone think that the “poor in spirit” could EVER mean “mild tempered”??? Two different things with two different meanings. Please stop insulting our collective intelligence with a bunch of “scriptural” parabolic hyperbole. Can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
:hypno:

:byzsoc: Forever Catholic

 

[DustinsDad]

Huh? So you are going to heaven and you’re going to be a King. You are also going to be a priest.

Jesus is, and we are members of His body, so, yep. In Him and through Him.

And you’re going to be a King and Priest **over **the earth. (Rev 5:9, 10)

As members of the the Body of the One King and One High Priest - yep. All creation will be fully subject to Christ and perfected - in their proper order. Therefore, those who are the members of the Body of Christ will certainly rule “over” the earth and possess it.

Who do you think is going to be living on the earth?

Honestly, I’m not sure how the logistics work out in the New Heavens and the New Earth, all I know and all that is clearly stated is that both are promised to all who are saved by Christ Jesus Our Lord. All we can do is get a glimpse of what it will all be like, in reality, it will be more than we ever fathomed - “eye has not seen and ear has not heard”…remember.

You my friend, unfortunately, are looking with “fleshy” eyes and not with faith - not supernatural faith. You are still thinking on human terms - and in the OT promises that were fulfilled and then some in Christ Jesus Our Lord. This same confusion and seeking the world rather than Heaven, the created rather than the Creator, choosing the lesser rather than the greater, is what led the Jews to conspire to kill Christ - a dangerous path you are walking my friend. Eternally perilous…

(Psalm 37:9-11) For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

Yep. And what additional information and promises does Scripture tell us about the eternal destiny of all those made rightous in Christ?

Hint: It’s in all the verses you are not responding to.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[BibleSteve]

Honestly, I’m not sure how the logistics work out in the New Heavens and the New Earth, all I know and all that is clearly stated is that both are promised to all who are saved by Christ Jesus Our Lord. All we can do is get a glimpse of what it will all be like, in reality, it will be more than we ever fathomed - “eye has not seen and ear has not heard”…remember.

Dear DustinsDad,

Use your Bible knowledge to think through the answer you don’t understand

Throughout the Bible, there are kings. They rule over others that are not kings.

There are also priests. They serve others who are not priests.

The original offer to become king/priests was extended to Israel:

(Exodus 19:5-6) And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6*And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.”

But, they didn’t fulfill their end of the covenant. So, the offer was extended to others:

(1 Peter 2:9-10) But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10*For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

Ultimately, the book of Revelation identifies two groups… those who are the King/Priests and those who are not (i.e. the great crowd).

Thus, Kings serving over others who are not kings. Priests serving others who are not priests.

It’s obvious that those who are king/priests are going to reside in heaven.

And the Bible is clear that there are going to be others living on the earth.

These king/priests are going to be ruling over the earth because the new earth will be have the wicked removed and the righteous living on it… which was the original purpose extended to Adam and Eve.

(Psalm 37:9-10) For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10*And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.

 

[DustinsDad]

…The original offer to become king/priests was extended to Israel:

(Exodus 19:5-6) And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. 6*And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.”

And yes, the promise here was to all of Israel - all of God’s chosen people. They would all go to the promised land. And in the New Covenant -* all the faithful* go as well. It fulfills the old and perfects it and raises it to levels we couldn’t imagine…God had to finally reveal it all to us in Christ Jesus.

…But, they didn’t fulfill their end of the covenant. So, the offer was extended to others:

(1 Peter 2:9-10) But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10*For YOU were once not a people, but are now God’s people; YOU were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.

Add this to just one more verse the demonstrates the Catholic understanding - this is a description of faithful Christians - layfolk and clergy alike, the offer given to each and every human being that follows Christ Jesus Our Lord.

…Ultimately, the book of Revelation identifies two groups…

Yep, ultimately it describes two groups of people, the saved* with* God and the damned cut off from Him forever. Do you not want to be with God forever? Those in the book and those not in the book of life.

I don’t think it gets much plainer than that my friend. Now rather than rephrase what you’ve already said…please respond to all of the post. I think you know what I mean.

Peace in Christ

DustinsDad

 

[BibleSteve]

Yep, ultimately it describes two groups of people, the saved* with* God and the damned cut off from Him forever. Do you not want to be with God forever? Those in the book and those not in the book of life.

The Bible book of Revelation certain does discuss those thrown into a lake of fire…

However, we are talking about 2 groups mentioned in Revelation that have God’s favor: The 144,000 and the great crowd.

Those living in the new heavens and those living in the new earth.

If you read then entire book carefully, you may note the one group is wearing crowns and the other isn’t (hint: crown->kings).

 

[geraldffff]

Dear Revelation,

The quotes were in response to a specific question.

Your are quite presumptuous and judgmental.

I haven’t rejected Jesus. To the contrary, I know him, trust him, and accept him as providing my salvation (John 3:16).

You say it so now explain it. At whose name will your knee bend and whose name will you confess Jesus or Jehovah. One or both. and if one which one? Will you bend your knee and worship the Jesus you believe was the archangel Micheal before he was born and you believe went back to being that same Micheal after he died. Will you confess the name of Jesus when you believe his body turned to dust in the tomb so the body he showed to Thomas as proof of his resurrection was not the body that was put in the grave but was a “semblance”. This belief that Jesus deceived Thomas in to believing that his body had come out of the grave is very difficult for thoese who love Jesus. Is it being loving to Jesus to make him out to be a deceiver. My experience is that Jw"s are judgmental and presumptuous. At the time I was considering the Jw religion my brother a Jw and I went Ice fishing. It was quite disturbing to me to watch him grind his foot in the snow and declare that God would grind all those who do not believe as Jw"s in to nothing. Now that is judgmental and presumptuous!