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Seamus_L
Guest
One dead in violent clashes in Donetsk euronews.com/2014/03/13/ukrainian-demonstrators-clash-in-eastern-city-one-dead/
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pepipop
Guest
Unfortunately, it may be the first of many, as the different regions of Ukraine rebel against the non-democratic elected government, chosen by Kiev.
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TaurusRex
Guest
One last comment I’d like to make is that imho the neo-fascist and communist atheist rebels by whom the legitimate government of the Ukraine was democratically and violently overthrown are comparable to the rebels by whom the government of Spain was democratically and violently overthrown in 1936 except that the Ukrainian rebels are smart enough to hide behind their Catholic population instead of murdering them,
rex
rex
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josie_L
Guest
So you brought up the Spanish civil war in which Russia was also heavily involved, in fact, who do you think the Republicans were mimicking when they killed so many Catholic religious?
The Republicans didn’t make a mistake when they murdered thousands of religious, it was a deliberate attempt to exterminate and/or suppress the Church in Spain, i.e., they knew the Church would not tolerate an atheistic ideology, i.e., communism. And I’m not twisting anyone’s words I’m simply taking umbrage with the way you express yourself.
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And who says they “couldn’t restrain themselves”? They deliberately killed 6000 religious because they wanted to impose an atheistic ideology on ALL Spaniards.
So the Spanish population fearing that an atheistic ideology was going to be imposed upon them by very violent Republicans made a mistake?
The Conversos were already Christian, yet the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to question whether or not their Christianity was authentic, i.e., no Jew or Muslim was being converted during these trials. And the Spanish monarchy was in charge of directing the Spanish Inquisition, i.e., King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, although there were priests who inquired into the faith of the conversos or those accused of heresy, it was not always a priest, one had to be however a lawyer. The pope was only initially involved in the Spanish inquisition, however, he retracted his support of it once he heard news of the torture, there is I believe a bull which he wrote. Moreover, the Holy Roman Empire was created for the purpose of defending Christendom in the West and as such the Church, the emperor was a secular monarch not a pope, thus I believe you are confusing it with the Holy Roman Inquisition, which is now referred to as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Yet the U.S. is supporting the present Ukrainian government, which has the support of both the UGCC (Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church) and UOC (Ukrainian Orthodox Church).
P.S. I happen to be a first generation Italian Canadian (38 years of age) whose paternal and maternal grandparents both survived the war.
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TaurusRex
Guest
There you go again but instead of using the word “twisting” I’ll substitute
“warping” my words.
No the Catholic Spanish populace didn’t make a mistake by supporting Franco and the Catholic Church, the mistake was made by the Republicans, not that they didn’t want to destroy the Catholic Church. but that they used poor strategy in performing their evil deed before they had control of Spain and its people.
PS:
The Republicans with their Bolsheviks may have been mimicking the Soviet red terror, but I repeat that today’s Russia is back to Eastern Christian Orthodoxy (also victims of the Soviet red terror)
And I also repeat that the Ukrainian rebels have an element of the communist red terrorists among their ranks.
rex
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asnate
Guest
Is Russia really back to Orthodoxy - starting violence and war in Lent time? What Russia is really back to is totalitarian regime. On the other hand, Moscow Patriarch Kyril known for his luxury life style and unknown for any peace initiatives, of course, is very close to Putin.
And whom are you calling red rebels - students demanding associate status with EU promised by Yanukovitsch before election? Or people wanting Ukraine to be independent, not included into Russia&Belorus union?
And whom are you calling red rebels - students demanding associate status with EU promised by Yanukovitsch before election? Or people wanting Ukraine to be independent, not included into Russia&Belorus union?
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mikekle
Guest
You are absolutely right!!
This is why we wont see Obama sending troops over there, he knows he cant beat Russia, but would never say that to the american public, he would change the subject and say the Us prefers to use sanctions and other methods to cover up the REAL truth.
However it situations progress over there, the US may be forced to send troops, but when Russia overpowers them, Obama would still try to explain it away with something else, anything besides admitting Russia is more powerful! LOL
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asnate
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For those interested in what is really going on, it would be helpful to read insights of Jesuit Superior in Ukraine:
thinkingfaith.org/articles/20140313_1.htm
thinkingfaith.org/articles/20140313_1.htm
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GaryTaylor
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gilliam
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Russia Is Preparing to Invade East Ukraine, Estonia Says
Russian President Vladimir Putin is preparing to “invade eastern Ukraine” after occupying the country’s Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, Estonia said.
Russia warned that Ukraine’s government has lost control of the country today, fueling concern the Kremlin may extend a military intervention as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called for it to halt a takeover of the disputed province.
Events in Ukraine “clearly show that the Russian Federation only accepts force,” Estonian Defense Minister Urmas Reinsalu said in an e-mailed statement today. To deter Putin, “a clear message needs to be sent that an attack will cost the aggressor dearly.”
In the biggest dispute between Russia and the West since the fall of the Iron Curtain, the standoff is shaking markets and threatening to upset more than two decades of economic and diplomatic integration between former Cold War enemies. It’s also raising the risk that a lasting geographical conflict zone may emerge between Russia and the European Union.
bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-14/russia-is-preparing-to-invade-east-ukraine-estonia-says.html
Russian President Vladimir Putin is preparing to “invade eastern Ukraine” after occupying the country’s Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, Estonia said.
Russia warned that Ukraine’s government has lost control of the country today, fueling concern the Kremlin may extend a military intervention as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry called for it to halt a takeover of the disputed province.
Events in Ukraine “clearly show that the Russian Federation only accepts force,” Estonian Defense Minister Urmas Reinsalu said in an e-mailed statement today. To deter Putin, “a clear message needs to be sent that an attack will cost the aggressor dearly.”
In the biggest dispute between Russia and the West since the fall of the Iron Curtain, the standoff is shaking markets and threatening to upset more than two decades of economic and diplomatic integration between former Cold War enemies. It’s also raising the risk that a lasting geographical conflict zone may emerge between Russia and the European Union.
bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-14/russia-is-preparing-to-invade-east-ukraine-estonia-says.html
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Monkey1976
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I doubt that Putin would invade Ukraine proper. My reasoning is:
- The KGB didn’t raise idiots, party sycophants, or megalomaniacs to the rank of lieutenant colonel and put them in the field - even in friendly countries - under the First Directorate. The Soviet Union had already had one Stalin, and they did NOT want another. They also needed their foreign service officers to be loyal, intelligent, and objective - not propogandizing parrots of the Party.
- If Ukraine itself was the goal, he would have invaded at the same time he sent troops into the Crimea. At this point, there is exactly zero element of surprise. An invasion of Ukraine would invite direct conflict with NATO.
- If he were to invade, there is no doubt that Russia would quickly overcome the Ukranian military. However, victory in that scenario puts several NATO countries directly on his border, which is the last thing he wants for Russia.
- Taking over Ukraine makes the Chernobyl cleanup Russia’s problem again.
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pepipop
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GaryTaylor
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nytimes.com/2014/03/14/world/europe/ukraine.html?nlid=59947587
Oleksandr V. Turchynov, Ukraine’s acting president, said in a statement on his official website that he believed Russian forces massed near the border were “ready to intervene in Ukraine at any time,” and that he hoped diplomatic efforts by Ukraine and sympathetic nations would “stop the aggression.”
In Moscow, the military acknowledged significant operations involving armored and airborne troops in the Belgorod, Kursk and Rostov regions abutting eastern Ukraine, where many ethnic Russians have protested the new interim government in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, and appealed to Moscow for protection.
Could be a posturing and bargaining chip, hope for the best and expect the worst. Terrible time during lent for this.
Oleksandr V. Turchynov, Ukraine’s acting president, said in a statement on his official website that he believed Russian forces massed near the border were “ready to intervene in Ukraine at any time,” and that he hoped diplomatic efforts by Ukraine and sympathetic nations would “stop the aggression.”
In Moscow, the military acknowledged significant operations involving armored and airborne troops in the Belgorod, Kursk and Rostov regions abutting eastern Ukraine, where many ethnic Russians have protested the new interim government in Ukraine’s capital, Kiev, and appealed to Moscow for protection.
Could be a posturing and bargaining chip, hope for the best and expect the worst. Terrible time during lent for this.
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TaurusRex
Guest
Why does that site say:
?
Not for anything but way back in my language and communication course we were taught to consider the source.
PS:
Staged with a trained crow and seagull???
rex
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Seamus_L
Guest
According to Wikileaks, this could well be Russia’s response to fears of NATO moving into Ukraine in the near future original.antiwar.com/hallinan/2014/03/13/wikileaks-ukraine-and-nato/.
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gilliam
Guest
Invading another country because you are “afraid” some other country might do something doesn’t justify the invasion under international law (or moral law for that matter)
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gilliam
Guest
No Ukraine accord in US-Russia talks
Russia and the US have “no common vision” on the crisis in Ukraine, Russia’s foreign minister has said after talks with his US counterpart.
However Sergei Lavrov added that his meeting with John Kerry in London had been “constructive”.
Russia would “respect the will of the people of Crimea”, Mr Lavrov said, ahead of Sunday’s referendum there.
Crimeans are to vote on whether to leave Ukraine and become part of the Russian Federation.
President Barack Obama said on Friday that there would be “consequences” if Ukraine’s “sovereignty continues to be violated”.
Mr Lavrov told reporters in London that Russia had no plans to invade south-eastern Ukraine.
bbc.com/news/world-europe-26583697
“Mr Lavrov told reporters in London that Russia had no plans to invade south-eastern Ukraine.” What kind of a statement is that? What about north-eastern Ukraine? Not that I would trust anything this guy has to say at this point.
Russia and the US have “no common vision” on the crisis in Ukraine, Russia’s foreign minister has said after talks with his US counterpart.
However Sergei Lavrov added that his meeting with John Kerry in London had been “constructive”.
Russia would “respect the will of the people of Crimea”, Mr Lavrov said, ahead of Sunday’s referendum there.
Crimeans are to vote on whether to leave Ukraine and become part of the Russian Federation.
President Barack Obama said on Friday that there would be “consequences” if Ukraine’s “sovereignty continues to be violated”.
Mr Lavrov told reporters in London that Russia had no plans to invade south-eastern Ukraine.
bbc.com/news/world-europe-26583697
“Mr Lavrov told reporters in London that Russia had no plans to invade south-eastern Ukraine.” What kind of a statement is that? What about north-eastern Ukraine? Not that I would trust anything this guy has to say at this point.
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josie_L
Guest
I am not twisting or warping anything, it is your inability to properly express yourself that is causing you problems, for example, who uses “Mother Russia” if they themselves are not from Russia, and then when I tell you that “Russia is not my mother”, you act offended, and attempt to reprimand me. Then you claim that the Republicans “made the mistake of killing 6000 religious” or that they “couldn’t restrain themselves” . . . . . reread your posts and see why someone like myself might get offended by the words you’ve used.
Nobody implied that Russia today is the same as what it was under Communism, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have elements of the totalitarian while it’s been under the leadership of Putin.
I thought they were neo-Nazis, that is, Russia’s leadership/media is projecting the present Ukrainian government as neo-Nazis.
P.S. It’s obvious you side with the Russians, so good for you, but I on the other hand will not be force fed lies distributed by Putin and his lackeys, i.e., the Russian media.
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gilliam
Guest
Putin cracking down in Russia:
Yesterday, Russian journalist Leonid Ragozin wrote here about Putin’s renewed crackdown on the media: What began just days before the Olympics with a Kremlin attack on Dozhd, the last independent television station in Russia, has now extended to Lenta.ru, arguably the best news site in Russia. On Wednesday, the site’s editor-in-chief was fired and replaced with a Kremlin loyalist, and the whole staff quit in protest. Yesterday, the Kremlin went full-China on the Internet, the holy of holies of the Russian opposition. Using some flimsy legal pretexts, it banned access to various oppositional news sites, to the website of Moscow’s biggest radio station, and to the blog of Alexey Navalny, who is currently under house arrest. Last week, the owner of Dozhd announced that, due to the clampdown, the channel is going to close in a couple months.
Within the span of a couple months, the Kremlin, by hook and by crook, has cleared all the media underbrush. There’s suddenly not much left of the independent media, even of what little of it there was left after Putin’s first two terms at the wheel.
But that’s not all. In fact, terrifyingly, it’s not nearly all. Yesterday, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the pseudo-nationalist pseudo-parliamentarian, proposed banning the letter Ы (usually transliterated as “y” into English, as in NavalnY or, say, blinY) from the Russian alphabet because it was too “Asiatic.” The day before that, Vladimir Yakunin, head of Russian Railways, the biggest company in the country, proposed spending “trillions of rubles” on a “Trans-Eurasian Development Belt” that would take certain non-Western, non-Anglo-Saxon values into account. Yakunin added that the West had foisted onto Russia a form of economics—in which, judging by the number of Russian billionaires, it’s been quite successful—that was all growth for the sake of growth, and which annihilated Russia’s intrinsic spirituality. (It’s also a strange statement for a man whose children live in the very heart of the Anglo-Saxon West: London.) And that’s all happening with the backdrop of thousands of mysterious men, armed with state-of-the-art weaponry and dressed in uniforms that look very Russian but that Putin insisted they had “bought in a store.”
newrepublic.com/article/117007/while-west-watches-crimea-putin-cleans-house-moscow
Yesterday, Russian journalist Leonid Ragozin wrote here about Putin’s renewed crackdown on the media: What began just days before the Olympics with a Kremlin attack on Dozhd, the last independent television station in Russia, has now extended to Lenta.ru, arguably the best news site in Russia. On Wednesday, the site’s editor-in-chief was fired and replaced with a Kremlin loyalist, and the whole staff quit in protest. Yesterday, the Kremlin went full-China on the Internet, the holy of holies of the Russian opposition. Using some flimsy legal pretexts, it banned access to various oppositional news sites, to the website of Moscow’s biggest radio station, and to the blog of Alexey Navalny, who is currently under house arrest. Last week, the owner of Dozhd announced that, due to the clampdown, the channel is going to close in a couple months.
Within the span of a couple months, the Kremlin, by hook and by crook, has cleared all the media underbrush. There’s suddenly not much left of the independent media, even of what little of it there was left after Putin’s first two terms at the wheel.
But that’s not all. In fact, terrifyingly, it’s not nearly all. Yesterday, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the pseudo-nationalist pseudo-parliamentarian, proposed banning the letter Ы (usually transliterated as “y” into English, as in NavalnY or, say, blinY) from the Russian alphabet because it was too “Asiatic.” The day before that, Vladimir Yakunin, head of Russian Railways, the biggest company in the country, proposed spending “trillions of rubles” on a “Trans-Eurasian Development Belt” that would take certain non-Western, non-Anglo-Saxon values into account. Yakunin added that the West had foisted onto Russia a form of economics—in which, judging by the number of Russian billionaires, it’s been quite successful—that was all growth for the sake of growth, and which annihilated Russia’s intrinsic spirituality. (It’s also a strange statement for a man whose children live in the very heart of the Anglo-Saxon West: London.) And that’s all happening with the backdrop of thousands of mysterious men, armed with state-of-the-art weaponry and dressed in uniforms that look very Russian but that Putin insisted they had “bought in a store.”
newrepublic.com/article/117007/while-west-watches-crimea-putin-cleans-house-moscow
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Robert_Bay
Guest
MODERATOR REMINDER
Stay on the topic of the original post (which is about Ukraine, not Spain, Iraq, Ireland, etc.)
Also, charitably post about the issues, not each other nor how each other post.
Stay on the topic of the original post (which is about Ukraine, not Spain, Iraq, Ireland, etc.)
Also, charitably post about the issues, not each other nor how each other post.
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