Ukraine (cont.)

[Ridgerunner]

You should have heard some of the stories that I got from recent emigres. The means of government in Moscow then was by oligarchy, and it still is.

It’s uncomfortably easy to be ignorant of Soviet ways. Yes, I knew about the “Vanguard Doctrine” and the “driving belts of the proletariat” and Lenin’s temporary embrace of the NEP, his deals with Armand Hammer, and so on. I knew about the dachas and the Zils and the incredible exploitation of the many by the few.

But it never quite occurred to me that there is really no such thing as state “communism”, and, among its rulers, never was, even in theory. It’s just a way of justifying the rule of ruthless elites for their own benefit. There are other ways with different names, and “communism” is just one of them. I first saw it expressed in precisely those terms in a recent book by Ion Pacepa.

There really is no difference between the Soviet dictatorship and the current one in Russia except for the persecution of religion, which has simply gotten more selective. But even then, from WWII on, the Soviet elites were tolerant of the REO church, but only so long as it was submissive and/or complicit.

And, of course, the poverty is still there, nearly half of Putin’s apparatchiks are former KGB, and the economy is still largely based on the sale of commodities to the west. As Solzhenitsyn put it, those who believed in communism the very least were the KGB people. They knew what it was really all about; self-aggrandizement with no restraints other than the plots and machinations of others in the same position.

A terrible world. And some Russians in Ukraine are willing to go under that for $300.? Well, I guess would-be criminals in the west have given their freedom or even their lives for less.

And, of course, actual Ukrainians (and not a few ethic Russian Ukrainians) were horrified by the prospect of going under that again. They knew what it was in a way we cannot. There is a lot of corruption in the west, and I would be the first to acknowledge it. But it isn’t totally so and, being free, the west can come back from corruption if it wills to do so. Barring an absolute miracle, Russians can’t.

It’s no wonder millions turned out for the Maidan protests when they saw that Yanukovych was trying to turn them over to domination by the Putin cabal.

 

[josie_L]

LOL!

If Yanukovcyh was a crook, what does that make Turchynov, Tymoshenko (a convicted crook), and Yatsenyuk?

Was he or wasn’t he a crook? Answer the question.

The February 21st agreement was never implemented.

Uh, because Yanukovych fled like the coward he was to his puppet master.

Implementation would have meant the Maidan put down their arms and stop murdering Berkut and would have meant the Maidan would have to come to the Table like civilized human beings and negotiate a solution.

He signed the agreement, hence there was no reason to threaten him, they got what they wanted out of him, moreover, the following day, after news was reported that Yanukovych fled, protestors went to his palatial home, not to destroy the home he had built for himself with their money, but just to view it, while others were able to fish out documents he attempted to DESTROY (a sign of his innocence, no).

Instead, they threatened the life of Yanukovych and his family, forced him to fleee, and unconstitutionally seized the reigns of power with many of the parliamentarians acting under the duress of a rifle barrel.

You’ve given me no proof that they threatened him.

 

[josie_L]

So, in other words, you are comparing Putin to Hitler.

That’s an insult to those of us who had relatives die under Hitler and it is an insult to history.

Who says I don’t have relatives that died under Hitler (I’m of Italian ancestry), moreover, it’s an insult to you not history, i.e., please distinguish the difference.

 

[DaveBj]

It’s uncomfortably easy to be ignorant of Soviet ways. . .

Very well said (the whole post)

 

[Ridgerunner]

You have not one shred of credible, independent evidence that Victor Yanukovych initiated the violence.

In fact, the video evidence available on Youtube makes it crystal clear that the Berkut TOLERATED all kinds of violence against THEMSELVES (molotov cocktails, clubs and finally bullets) before they were forced to respond in kind. If the violence that occurred against the Berkut had occurred against American Police officers, the Maidan would have been shot dead on the spot and you know it!

Victor Yanukovych’s family and his life was threatened by the same thugs that were out in the streets murdering the Berkut.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_(special_police_force
The Berkut? Yikes! Not a good bunch to idealize!

Involved, under Yanukovych in racketeering, Yanukovych tried to expand its numbers. It killed over 100 Maidan protesters. Not surprisingly, the Crimean Berkut went right over to the Russians and, in Crimea, were incorporated into the Russian security service, just like that.

It’s no wonder ordinary Ukrainians decided enough was enough with Yanukovych. Beside his stealing money to live in luxury, he was organizing an internal KGB to force Ukraine into the Soviet orbit.

Shameful.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It gets worse and worse the more one reads about Berkut.

From “Business Insider” January 27, 2014: keep in mind this was written before Yanukovych ran to hide in Putin’s arms.

"Over the last two and half months, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have protested the increasingly authoritarian direction of President Viktor Yanukovych’s government. At the forefront of Ukrainians’ objections to the government are a special police force known as the Berkut, or “Golden Eagle.”

During the Euromaidan Protests, Yanukovych has deployed up to 5,000 members of the Berkut to assist in protest management, including the use of water cannons, tear gas, and rubber bullets. Rather than quelling the disturbances, the Berkut has fanned the flames, using increasingly brutal measures to fight protesters.

The Berkut are a special police force that has had a long history of brutality, abuse, torture, and other measures in service of whatever political regime is in control of Ukraine. The force was first formed in 1988 as part of the Soviet OMON (Special Purpose Police Unit), an elite riot police and paramilitary force.

In 1992, after the fall of the Soviet Union, the force reformed as the Berkut under the Ministry of Internal Affairs and was stationed in every province. Originally established to fight organized crime, the force has been increasingly utilized to maintain law and order and break up “mass events,” such as riots and protests.

Since their inception, they have been involved in numerous scandals, including violently dispersing peacefully protesting coal miners in 1998, violently attacking protesters during the Ukraine Without Kuchma protests in 2001, as well as sadistically attacking protesters during the current Euromaidan protests.

Berkut members are carefully selected and trained extensively. Prior to joining, Berkut men must have army service, as well as two to three years of law enforcement experience. They are usually paid between one and half to two times more than a regular police officer.

The semi-autonomous Berkut police often act with impunity for their actions, leading some to call them a “mafia-style organization.” Some efforts have been made over the years to rein in Berkut power, most notably by Yuriy Lutsenko (now an opposition leader) under President Viktor Yushchenko. Lutsenko set up human rights experts and oversight groups to monitor the activities of the Berkut and other members of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

When current President Yanukovych came to power, these measures were rolled back. Yanukovych appointed a close ally to run the MIA and, since, the Berkut has upped its brutality. "

Read more: businessinsider.com/meet-the-ukraines-brutal-berkut-police-force-2014-1#ixzz30b8pgVyH

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not to treat this lightly, but if a crowd of people in a theater was really familiarized with life in Russia and that in, say, France, and then, at the end, the speaker asked for a show of preference:

“If you had to move from where you are, who would like to live in France, please stand. Those who would rather live in Russia, remain seated.” The theater would rumble with all but a few very strange people standing.

And that’s what Ukrainians, in effect, saw clearly. They are in Europe. They could drive to Germany in a day, and they live right next to Russia. Their grandparents and great-grandparents were starved, beaten, shot, exiled under the old Soviet regime, and there was KGB Putin to join on the one hand, or “France” on the other.

Yanukovych voted “Russia” for them and tried to force them into Russia. They protested. He had some of them shot. Then the protests sometimes became violent.

So Yanukovych ran to Putin. Putin saw that game One wasn’t going to work, so Putin went to game Two, took over Crimea and now threatens to take all of Ukraine into Russia.

Live in Russia or live in France. How would you vote? Let’s see a show of hands. All for France…

How would any reasonable person expect Ukrainians to vote?

 

[HansTrappist]

Was he or wasn’t he a crook? Answer the question.

Excuse me. Easy there!

Was he ever convicted of being a crook? That would involve presenting evidence in a court and then allowing the judicial process to take its course. Correct me if I am wrong, but that process never happened and you certainly have presented no real evidence demonstrating that he was a crook.

And you did not answer my question.

Uh, because Yanukovych fled like the coward he was to his puppet master.

That sounds like the talking points that were distributed in the Western media.

The reality of what happened was that the legitimate President of Ukraine, whether he was corrupt or not is irrelevant, was VIOLENTLY and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY forced from power against his will and against the will of the Ukrainian people.

He signed the agreement…

And instead of laying down their weapons as was required by the February 21st agreement, the Maidan responded by murdering Berkut.

Some agreement!

You’ve given me no proof that they threatened him.

It is straight from the lips of Victor Yanukovcyh. And, as the Forum rules require here, we are to take people at their word.

 

[Tomdstone]

The reality of what happened was that the legitimate President of Ukraine, whether he was corrupt or not is irrelevant, was VIOLENTLY and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY forced from power against his will and against the will of the Ukrainian people.

Yanukovich was elected by an open and democratic vote of the people of Ukraine, but he was forced out illegally and unconstitutionally with the help of the west and the fascist and undemocratic Right Sector Group.

 

[Seamus_L]

Ron Paul in the US, Nigel Farage in Great Britain, and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, all blame the EU and the West for the tragic situation in Ukraine.

 

[Path_Finder]

Ron Paul seems to take a non-interventionist stance from what I’ve read:

washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/24/ron-paul-us-should-leave-ukraine-solve-its-own-pro/

rt.com/usa/ron-paul-ukraine-aid-409/

slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/03/24/ron_paul_and_a_new_libertarian_rift_over_ukraine.html

And I’d lean that way but I do not understand the situation well.

theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/nigel-farage-eu-miltarist-ukraine-nick-clegg

Farage seems to argue against getting involved in foreign affairs as well.

From what I see, I don’t think Ron Paul is “blaming the West”, Ron Paul does seem to say interventionism often leads to making enemies with other people. That much is true.

---

This fire over there today is tragic. Hope things can calm down.

 

[josie_L]

Excuse me. Easy there!

Was he ever convicted of being a crook? That would involve presenting evidence in a court and then allowing the judicial process to take its course. Correct me if I am wrong, but that process never happened and you certainly have presented no real evidence demonstrating that he was a crook.

Actually there was a lot of evidence given, i.e., Kyiv Andrew and others have stated many times and on many occasions just how crooked he was (in the last two threads), again, if you wish to ignore it than so be it, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to though.

And you did not answer my question.

I’ll answer your questions like you have answered mine, moreover, Yanukovych deserves to take the fall for the evils of the previous government as he was head of that government (he even appointed many of its officials), i.e., he more than anyone else knew what was going on.

That sounds like the talking points that were distributed in the Western media.

You haven’t proved what I said was false, you’re simply stating your anti-Western bias.

The reality of what happened was that the legitimate President of Ukraine, whether he was corrupt or not is irrelevant, was VIOLENTLY and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY forced from power against his will and against the will of the Ukrainian people.

There was no violence that was not initiated by his own hand and his removal was not unconstitutional, i.e., by abusing his powers as president he lost all legitimacy, it was his actions that were UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Moreover, a MAJORITY of Ukrainians (something like 64 or 65%) wanted him ousted, i.e., they commiserated with the protestors.

And Yanukovych fled because he could not face the music, i.e., he knew he was going to be indicted.

It is straight from the lips of Victor Yanukovcyh. And, as the Forum rules require here, we are to take people at their word.

Alright, then I’m the long lost great granddaughter of the grand duchess of Russia. And don’t say you don’t believe me, forum rules say that we are required to take people at their word.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Adrian Karatnycky of the Atlantic Council has just been interviewed by BBC World News. He states that some 20 of the 35 or so fatalities in Odesa today had Russian and/or Transnistiran passports. (Transnistria is a pro-Russian breakaway part of Moldova).

If this is true, sadly, what is the point of sending in Russian citizens/passport holders from Russia proper or Transnistria into Ukraine to attack Ukrainian civilians? Today’s Guardian newspaper reports that: “The clashes reportedly began after protesters gathering for a rally in support of a unified Ukraine were attacked by pro-Russia activists armed with clubs and air pistols.”

Why come from Russia into Ukraine to attack Ukrainian civilians and storm buildings? This may serve Putin’s purpose but people are dying now, though in my opinion, Putin, as a faithful follower of the teachings of KGB atheist tyrant Yuri Andropov, puts little value on human life. Yuri Andropov did not, and Putin venerates the man. Those who wish to defend Putin must defend his hero: the KGB’s butcher of Budapest Yuri Andropov.

As I posted on the Ukraine thread some time back, the Russian social site VKontakte was advertising for Russian citizens to sign up in large numbers for buses organized to travel into Ukrainian cities, specifically Donetsk, Kharkiv, and Odesa to engage in pro-Russian/pro-Putin agitation. Ukraine’s neighbour Poland would not tolerate such activity from citizens from a foreign country.

Prayers for all the deceased in Ukraine today.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Just some further clarification on Slovyansk, Donetsk, the base for the pro-Russian miliatant/separatists, which was surrounded today by Ukraine’s armed forces and from which Russian-controlled city anti-aircraft missiles were launched to bring down Ukrainian military helicopters, killing the pilots.

The leader of this highly-armed terror group is a Russian citizen and Colonel in Russia’s Military Intelligence (GRU). His codename is Igor Strielkov, but his real name is Igor Girkin. He can be seen in the following video:
youtube.com/watch?v=kkDH6cuxvg4

He may try to break out of the encirclement tonight.
pravda.com.ua/news/2014/05/2/7024144/

He was involved in the torture (multiple stabbings), drowning, and murder of the Ukrainian politician Volodymyr Rybak, at least, though many have gone missing in the area controlled by Gurkin’s goons, including a 19 year old student whose body was found near Rybak’s:

Ukraine’s SBU security service officials blame Russian military intelligence agents for ordering Rybak’s abduction and killing and they think the Russians didn’t want the bodies to be found. Sandbags were attached to the corpses to make them sink but the disposal was botched. Elena [Rybak’s wife] suspects that’s true and that if she hadn’t gone to the morgue on April 23, the bodies would have been spirited away.

The SBU has released portions of intercepted calls in which on April 17 alleged Russian agent Igor Bezler orders underlings to capture Rybak. Bezler’s boss Igor Strelkov, a Muscovite whose real name is Igor Girkin, is heard in another subsequent intercepted conversation instructing the thuggish separatist leader in Slovyansk, Vyacheslav Ponomarev, to dispose of the body, which is “lying here and stinking.”

In the audio recording, Strelkov is heard to say: “Slava, please, settle the matter with the stiff, so that he is quickly dragged away from us today.”

Ponomarev responds: “I will go quickly and settle the issue of burying this *****.” According to the SBU, Strelkov and Bezler are colonels in Russia’s GRU military service and were in Crimea previously, helping with the annexation.

The town to which Rybak was taken, Slovyansk, has become the poster town for the pro-Russian insurgency. One hundred kilometers north of Donetsk, it is controlled totally by separatists and it serves as the main base for the militancy across the region. People abducted in neighboring towns are transported to Slovyansk. According to the self-declared “people’s mayor,” Ponomarev, more than 40 are now being held there, including seven international military observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/03/in-cold-blood-in-ukraine.html

 

[KyivAndrew]

Igor Girkin (not “Gurkin” as I made a spelling error the second time).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_%28GRU%29

 

[KyivAndrew]

correction: in one place I mis-typed Girkin above as Gurkin; it is Igor Girkin
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_%28GRU%29

 

[Vouthon]

Ron Paul in the US, Nigel Farage in Great Britain, and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, all blame the EU and the West for the tragic situation in Ukraine.

And each one of those men is well known for being a rabble-rousing extremist, albeit of a very different ilk.

Ron Paul is a fundamentalist isolationist who believes the US should withdraw from the UN, the International Criminal Court and every other international Treaty since the Geneva Convention in the 19th century so as to make the country some kind of self-sufficient uber-neutral in world affairs. Had he been a politician in the 1930s he’d have been high up in the America First movement.

Nigel Farage, oh where do I even begin. As a Brit I’ve watched this dude for years. He has an intense vitriolic hatred for the EU and wants the UK to withdraw from it. His party is very right-wing and not in a good conservative way either. He boasted back in 2012 about using taxpayers money, EU allowances, of up to £2 million to fund his campaign for the dissolution of the EU. UKIP, Farage’s party, is member of the EU group Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD) which includes far-right parties such as the Danish People’s Party, the True Finns Party, the Dutch SGP and the Italian Lega Nord – whose leader Francesco Speroni once described the child murderer Anders Breivik as someone whose “ideas are in defence of western civilisation."

That same year in 2012, a UKIP MP declared that there should be compulsory abortion for all disabled babies:

metro.co.uk/2012/12/19/all-disabled-babies-should-be-aborted-claims-ukip-candidate-3322519/

All disabled babies ‘should be aborted’, claims Ukip candidate

A Ukip council candidate has been suspended after claiming all babies with disabilities should be aborted.

Geoffrey Clark said disabled children were a ‘burden’ as he suggested reforms of the NHS in his manifesto.

The 66-year-old wrote: ‘Compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Down’s, spina bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, could render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family’.

And just recently this year, another of Farage’s men said that the famous UK black comedian Lenny Henry should go back “to a black country”. He was born in Britain:

expressandstar.com/news/politics/2014/04/28/lenny-henry-thanks-supporters-after-ukip-black-country-race-row/

Lenny Henry has thanked supporters after a Ukip candidate said the comedian should emigrate to a ‘black country’.

Finally Geert Wilders.

Speaks for itself. He is a well known far-right extremist with cooky views He is again completely anti-EU, with very extreme views on Muslims, immigration, Danish multi-party democracy and a host of other issues. Hardly a moderate?

What lovely admirers Putin has…

 

[Tomdstone]

And each one of those men is well known for being a rabble-rousing extremist, albeit of a very different ilk.

I don’t believe that Mr. Ron Paul is a “rabble rouser.” I find his views on Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran to be reasonable and sound.

 

[Athanasiy]

I am just trying to imagine the nature of Slavic Civilization.

Poland, Chech Republic , Croatia, Slovenia , Slovakia , are also Slavs but they do not belong to Orthodox Slavic Civilization Theory.
Also , there are many Slavic roots in Estonia , Latvia , Lithuania. - And their Slavic nature has nothing to do with Orthodox Slavic Civilization Theory.
The same we can say about Macedonia, Chornogoria, Serbia , Bosnia, Ukraine, who are integrating to European family, that has its roots in Christianity. ( dignity, justice, rights- its all Gospels values of European civilization)

 

[latin_rite]

I see Mr Bidens warriors the socialist right of the Urkraine has burned alive 40 antimaidan activists.