Ukraine

[Tomdstone]

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism
by ERIC DRAITSER:

The violence on the streets of Ukraine is far more than an expression of popular anger against a government. Instead, it is merely the latest example of the rise of the most insidious form of fascism that Europe has seen since the fall of the Third Reich.

Recent months have seen regular protests by the Ukrainian political opposition and its supporters – protests ostensibly in response to Ukrainian President Yanukovich’s refusal to sign a trade agreement with the European Union that was seen by many political observers as the first step towards European integration. The protests remained largely peaceful until January 17th when protesters armed with clubs, helmets, and improvised bombs unleashed brutal violence on the police, storming government buildings, beating anyone suspected of pro-government sympathies, and generally wreaking havoc on the streets of Kiev. But who are these violent extremists and what is their ideology?

The political formation is known as “Pravy Sektor” (Right Sector), which is essentially an umbrella organization for a number of ultra-nationalist (read fascist) right wing groups including supporters of the “Svoboda” (Freedom) Party, “Patriots of Ukraine”, “Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian National Self Defense” (UNA-UNSO), and “Trizub”. All of these organizations share a common ideology that is vehemently anti-Russian, anti-immigrant, and anti-Jewish among other things. In addition they share a common reverence for the so called “Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists” led by Stepan Bandera, the infamous Nazi collaborators who actively fought against the Soviet Union and engaged in some of the worst atrocities committed by any side in World War II.

While Ukrainian political forces, opposition and government, continue to negotiate, a very different battle is being waged in the streets. Using intimidation and brute force more typical of Hitler’s “Brownshirts” or Mussolini’s “Blackshirts” than a contemporary political movement, these groups have managed to turn a conflict over economic policy and the political allegiances of the country into an existential struggle for the very survival of the nation that these so called “nationalists” claim to love so dearly. The images of Kiev burning, Lviv streets filled with thugs, and other chilling examples of the chaos in the country, illustrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the political negotiation with the Maidan (Kiev’s central square and center of the protests) opposition is now no longer the central issue. Rather, it is the question of Ukrainian fascism and whether it is to be supported or rejected.

For its part, the United States has strongly come down on the side of the opposition, regardless of its political character. In early December, members of the US ruling establishment such as John McCain and Victoria Nuland were seen at Maidan lending their support to the protesters. However, as the character of the opposition has become apparent in recent days, the US and Western ruling class and its media machine have done little to condemn the fascist upsurge. Instead, their representatives have met with representatives of Right Sector and deemed them to be “no threat.” In other words, the US and its allies have given their tacit approval for the continuation and proliferation of the violence in the name of their ultimate goal: regime change.

In an attempt to pry Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence, the US-EU-NATO alliance has, not for the first time, allied itself with fascists.

I have read about fascism on the rise in Greece, but according to this, it seems like it has been active in Ukraine also?

 

[HansTrappist]

I forgot to mention that the Jewish community is supporting the protesters in Ukraine, and they have set up blood donation for the injured.

Actually, Yaakov Bleich, Ukraine’s chief rabbi, said that "Svoboda [one of leading opposition parties in Ukraine - one which Catherine Ashton has supported] is a right-wing, nationalist party with anti-Semitic elements in it.”

 

[KyivAndrew]

Eric Draitser writes for RT, Kremlin-controlled news. As I understand it from having asked a Moderator on CAF, RT is discouraged as such on CAF as a news source, and I personally would be wary of its coverage of Ukraine. I know I dealt with Pravyi Sektor, Svoboda, and others on another thread in Ukraine, and the concomitant problems, but it’s too late for me to respond now.

I’m out for the night so good night to all. I think I may be one of the few Ukrainians on CAF, but if anybody has some questions, even about the stickiest subjects, I’ll do my best to answer them tomorrow, even if I have to translate Ukrainian sources.

God Bless, and I hope we don’t wake up to bloodshed or any provocations in Ukraine. I think all posters on here can agree to this.

 

[josie_L]

You are communicating with another poster, Hobbes, privately about my sincerity and to accuse me, I stress again without foundation, of “asking a loaded question” and “shameful behaviour” on my part? I asked a sincere question. You respond with an ad hominem. I asked you for an apology for wrongfully accusing me. You didn’t give one. Please leave me alone. Thank you.

You’re question wasn’t loaded, i.e., he’s made blanket statements about the protestors with no exceptions, even though members of our hierarchy have a rather different view:

A bishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church said that anti-government protestors who killed by security forces are “martyrs,” according to a report from the Religious Information …

A bishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church said that anti-government protestors who were killed by security forces are “martyrs,” according to a report from the Religious Information Service of Ukraine.

“These are pure people, who have no evil intentions, who were ready to give everything they had today, so that we might live different lives,” said Bishop Borys Gudziak, the Ukrainian Catholic bishop of Paris. “Sacrifice and martyrdom bring fruit. This does not justify the actions of the government today, nor the behavior of the titushkos [hired thugs], our police or the Berkut [special forces unit].”

catholicculture.org/news/…?storyid=20563

This was post # 70 on this thread.

 

[HansTrappist]

Eric Draitser writes for RT, Kremlin-controlled news. As I understand it from having asked a Moderator on CAF, RT is discouraged as such on CAF as a news source, and I personally would be wary of its coverage of Ukraine.

I’m out for the night so good night to all. I think I may be one of the few Ukrainians on CAF, but if anybody has some questions, even about the stickiest subjects, I’ll do my best to answer them tomorrow.

God Bless, and I hope we don’t wake up to bloodshed or any provocations in Ukraine. I think all posters on here can agree to this.

You are something else!

Eric Draitser is an independent journalist who contributes to many news outlets.

But I was not citing RT nor was I starting a news thread with RT as the source (nice try to derail the thread).

I was citing an op-ed by Draitser from Counterpunch.com.

 

[KyivAndrew]

You are something else!

Eric Draitser is an independent journalist who contributes to many news outlets.

But I was not citing RT nor was I starting a news thread with RT as the source (nice try to derail the thread).

I was citing an op-ed by Draitser from Counterpunch.com.

No, I just find that anyone like Draitser who is willing to write and report for RT from the States is probably coming from a strict anti-Western, anti-US, anti-US military, extreme-leftist position, as he does in his columns I believe. Many of these people seem to believe in some great neo-con conspiracy. And again, I’m not derailing the thread, I’m going to bed. Thank you.

 

[HansTrappist]

You’re question wasn’t loaded, i.e., he’s made blanket statements about the protestors with no exceptions.

Nope!

I was referring to the violent protesters without exception - you know, the ones that have been murdering and maiming the Ukrainian Police.

I’m still waiting for you to cite an official document from either the Catholic or Orthodox Church that lays the blame for the violence on Yanukovych.

 

[HansTrappist]

No, I just find that anyone who is willing to write for RT from the States is probably coming from a strict anti-Western, extreme-leftist position in many cases. And again, I’m not derailing the thread, I’m going to bed. Thank you.

I see.

RT has the word “Russia” in their name.

They must be biased and untrustworthy.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I see.

RT has the word “Russia” in their name.

They must be biased and untrustworthy.

It’s not the “Russia” part that’s bad, you’re putting words in my mouth; it’s that it’s bought and sold for as a Kremlin mouthpiece in the eyes of many in the West. And its reports on Ukraine reflect what the Kremlin wants reported about Ukraine.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Again, in post #171 on this thread I posted an official document that the Ukrainian Catholic University affirms that responsibility for the current escalation rests solely on the government: The Cardinal of the Ukrainian Catholic Church is on that Catholic University’s Board.

I also posted the similar view held by Ukraine’s Orthodox Church(Kyvian Patriarchate).

The texts and links are in post 171 on this thread and are quite easy to find.

 

[Karolinah]

Hans,

what is your point really? Do you have some hatred for the east? Can you simply pray for the people in this region who have suffered unspeakable torture for decades?

Agree to disagree and as said above…pray their be no blood shed…and there be peace and freedom.

If we want to be recognized as Christians, let’s show that we care about people who are suffering.

Agree to disagree with who started what…just pray, pray, pray

Good night, and I thank God for all I have been given, as I deserve nothing, and I make very little of all my gifts. Please bring you loving peace to all.
Amen

 

[KyivAndrew]

I was referring to the violent protesters without exception - you know, the ones that have been murdering and maiming the Ukrainian Police.

No, Josie is right: you condemned the protestors “they” in your words en masse, no exceptions. Reread your post again; you provide no exceptions. Apart from the priests, there, among the protestors, are old women, old men, even kids, in the thousands, handicapped I even saw.

 

[josie_L]

Nope!

I was referring to the violent protesters without exception - you know, the ones that have been murdering and maiming the Ukrainian Police.

I’m still waiting for you to cite an official document from either the Catholic or Orthodox Church that lays the blame for the violence on Yanukovych.

Every reference you’ve made about the protestors was negative, i.e., there was no attempt at nuance, i.e., you had multiple opportunities to correct this view while we debated, but you have not, i.e., in your eyes the protestors are bad (there were no qualifications, no exceptions made). You can go back and review your posts if you wish or I’ll catalogue your posts for you on the morrow (every source you cited blamed the protestors, every attempt I’ve made to show you that Yanukovych was the real problem you’ve either ignored or debased).

p.s. The sources you posted called the protestors “neo-Nazis”, “unemployed”, “witless”, well here, let me cite Paul Craig Roberts again:

"We are witnessing this today in western Ukraine where a mixture of witless university students, pawns in Washington’s drive for world hegemony, together with paid protesters and fascistic elements among ultra-nationalists are bringing great troubles upon Ukraine and perhaps a deadly war upon the world.

Many of the protesters are just the unemployed collecting easy money. It is the witless idealistic types that are destroying the independence of their country."

Page 5, post # 65, for those of you who want to see the whole article he posted/sourced.

 

[Tomdstone]

Live TV broadcasts from Kiev, Ukraine:
5.lanet.tv/
If you move your mouse toward the top, you can get other TV broadcasts also.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Live TV broadcasts from Kiev, Ukraine:
5.lanet.tv/
If you move your mouse toward the top, you can get other TV broadcasts also.

Tom, I’d just like to say, that channel 5 in Ukraine was the last independent TV station in Ukraine. Yanukovych controlled all the rest. For the past 2 months on their site, they simply posted a statement that they have been under massive hacking attacks from Yanukovych and couldn’t broadcast, so they have now found an alternate internet address.

If it’s brought down by Yanukovych again, you can always use 5 kanal on youtube:
youtube.com/watch?v=lPPxZl43u04 for a live feed.

 

[KyivAndrew]

The Maidan protestors who were killed are having FUNERAL SERVICES on the Maidan for their DECEASED SOULS, to Ukrainian church hymns, much crying and sadness.

youtube.com/watch?v=XZOmqRzLqp8&list=UUkyrSWEcjZKpIwMxiPfOcgg

youtube.com/watch?v=Za7xWI01XEE

youtube.com/watch?v=roBltHahjPQ
Here the political opposition prays the Our Father and Hail Mary in Ukrainian.

 

[GraceSofia]

What Can Ukraine Expect From the West?

By Myroslav Marynovych, Vice-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University. (Worth reading).

I’m writing to you as a former prisoner of conscience of the Brezhnev era. All other titles are rapidly becoming irrelevant against the backdrop of bloody Maidan. My entire life, I admired Western civilization as the realm of what is most valuable. Today I am close to paraphrasing Shakespeare: “Treachery, thy name is Europe!” The depth of our bitterness is commensurate with the strength of our love for Europe.

If there is still anyone interested among the community of decision makers, I can answer the question posed in the headline. . . .

I am a Ukrainian
youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA

Powerful. Thanks for posting.

The Russian people support Putin overwhelmingly. You obviously have never been to Russia.

Depends on what they are supporting him in. The dozen Russians I know (Russian Russians, not American Russians or Canadian Russians) loathe Putin and the corruption in their government and society. They of course love their country, but that’s not the same thing. I also suspect that when they are inside Russia they are very careful what they say about Putin and to whom they say it.

No one has yet cited an official document by either the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church specifically condemning Yanukovych.

You don’t seriously expect such a thing? I don’t think even Hitler was was specifically named in documents against the Third Reich.

sorry I doubled the paste, when trying to put the patriarch’s photo…but image insert asks for a url link?

Maybe this will help: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=121763

 

[GraceSofia]

youtube.com/watch?v=roBltHahjPQ
Here the political opposition prays the Our Father and Hail Mary in Ukrainian.

Does that mean it’s a Catholic funeral? (Do Ukrainian Orthodox pray the Hail Mary?)

 

[KyivAndrew]

Does that mean it’s a Catholic funeral? (Do Ukrainian Orthodox pray the Hail Mary?)

Funnily, we pray the “Hail Mary” the same way, Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox. I think there will be Catholic funerals for the deceased Catholics and Orthodox for the Orthodox. The priests I believe were from both churches.

Talk to you tomorrow Grace !
Finally off, spent too much of my night here.

 

[Catholic_Press]

The opposition now wants to depose the president. Parliament votes for re-instatement of the 2004 constitution, amnesty for protesters, reforms a law that could lead to the release of Yulia Tymoshenko. The testimony of the artist Olesya Drashkaba on “life” in Maidan Square, even in the midst of death.

More…