Ukraine

[josie_L]

I didn’t twist; I asked since you made a blanket condemnation of all the protestors (and there are priests among the Maidan protestors), so don’t twist my words, Thank you very much. There are priests from these churches who belong to the protest movement. Plus if you kindly look at Ukraine’s Religious Information Service you will find that the Heads of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) hold Yanukovych directly responsible for the violence.

God Bless you abundantly

There is clear evidence showing that the UGCC and the CC as a whole have condemned the actions of the Yanukovych and his government and have participated in the Maidan protests, i.e., I guess they too are neo-Nazis (as per Babich’s article)!!!

 

[KyivAndrew]

You knew exactly what you were doing.

It was a shameful attempt.

O.K. You’re reading something into this that wasn’t there, so please quit accusing me of some shameful attempts at something. That’s a personal attack on me! I asked you a question and it wasn’t loaded. Period. You are now questioning my sincerity and baselessly accusing me of something. I sincerely would like an apology.

I have been on CAF for five years, no problems; I have no idea how much you know about Ukraine or the protestors. You’ve already alleged that western terrorists could have been behind the attack on Chornovol, which Chornovol would find bewildering, so I don’t have the slightest idea where you stand.

In the interests of civility, I will stop posting to you.

God Bless,

 

[HansTrappist]

There is clear evidence showing that the UGCC and the CC as a whole have condemned the actions of the Yanukovych and his government and have participated in the Maidan protests, i.e., I guess they too are neo-Nazis (as per Babich’s article)!!!

If there is clear evidence, then please include a link to it.

 

[josie_L]

You knew exactly what you were doing.

It was a shameful attempt.

Apology accepted in advance.

Source and citation please.

You have made no attempts to see the protestors has anything but radical and violent, therefore, Kyiv is reminding you there are many in the protest movement who are not, including many Catholic and Orthodox religious. Perhaps you can afford to be a little nuanced in your stance towards the protestors.

 

[HansTrappist]

O.K. You’re reading something into this that wasn’t there, so please quit accusing me of some shameful attempts at something. That’s a personal attack on me! I asked you a question and it wasn’t loaded. Period. You are now questioning my sincerity and baselessly accusing me of something. I sincerely would like an apology.

Your question was loaded.

Hobbes42 saw that.

That’s okay though, I already accepted your apology.

Let’s move on.

You’ve already alleged that western terrorists could have been behind the attack on Chornovol…

No.

I simply pointed out that there is zero evidence that Yanukovych was behind the attack (which is what josie L alleged in post # 108 of this thread) and that since there is zero evidence of who was resoonsible, anyone could be responsible.

 

[josie_L]

If there is clear evidence, then please include a link to it.

People have already cited them on this thread through various posts that you have disregarded, i.e., Father De Sousa’s article, George Weigel’s article, the automated news posts from Catholic Culture, the support of Cardinal Dolan. . . etc.

 

[Holly3278]

The situation in Ukraine is truly sad. I hope and pray that they can come to a peaceful and just resolution to the conflict.

 

[HansTrappist]

You have made no attempts to see the protestors has anything but radical and violent, therefore, Kyiv is reminding you there are many in the protest movement who are not, including many Catholic and Orthodox religious. Perhaps you can afford to be a little nuanced in your stance towards the protestors.

The Priests are there to minister to both sides and are not engaged in violent protest, as are the bulk of the “protesters.”

 

[Karolinah]

I have seen the video, it just makes me cry.
I really do not understand why more suffering on these people. When Poland stood up to the soviets (and lets face it, any eastern block county outside of USSR faired much, much better then and especially today)…the world stood with them.

If JPII were alive today…he would say…be not afraid

I wish I could say that to all the people in Ukraine and Russia…be not afraid.

youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA

I have so much…
Most people in the west have so much

yet I worry, and feel sad at times…what a sin

If I am missing anything, it is MY choice, because I can pray and worship for free when ever I want.

People misunderstand JPII’s support and affection for the east. They think…well he was a Pole, so of course he would relate to the plight.
This is actually completely wrong. Poles traditionally identify with the western church. It is a great sense of meaning and pride for them. And yet they are slavic, so naturally there is a tendency to show how you are SEPARATE from the east.

You see JPII loved and supported the east…not because he was a Pole, IN SPITE OF IT.

Do you see how much charity and love he had???

Lord, through the intercession of your holy servant Blessed John Paul the Great, please free the people of Ukraine and Russia. Oh most holy Theotokos, protect your children.
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Amen

 

[HansTrappist]

People have already cited them on this thread through various posts that you have disregarded, i.e., Father De Sousa’s article, George Weigel’s article, the automated news posts from Catholic Culture, the support of Cardinal Dolan. . . etc.

No one has yet cited an official document by either the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church specifically condemning Yanukovych.

 

[Karolinah]

I forgot to mention that the Jewish community is supporting the protesters in Ukraine, and they have set up blood donation for the injured.

 

[Seamus_L]

I think the big question now is where is Ukraine headed, and who is doing the leading. It’s a little too suspicious looking for me to believe a spontaneous revolution would just break out during the Sochi Olympics, after Western politicians turn up and egg on the protesters in Kiev. My guess is what will now be of primary concern is the setting up of a new government that will be amicable to American-EU-NATO interests.

 

[KyivAndrew]

For those interested:

Ukrainian Catholic University affirms that responsibility for the current escalation rests solely on the government:

"The line on our nation’s electrocardiogram has again peaked. The Maidan survived the internal forces’ assault yesterday, but suffered unspeakable losses. On TV the smoke rising from the numerous fires on the Maidan looks like smoke from censers at a massive national memorial service.

May the souls of the innocent victims rest in peace, where the righteous repose! Let the Lord accept them into the kingdom of heaven, let Him heal the numerous wounds with His merciful hand, let Him relieve the pain of the people who have once again been deceived by the authorities!

We unequivocally affirm that responsibility for the current escalation rests solely on the government – personally Viktor Yanukovych and his “hawkish” command. Every case of escalation, each more striking in its complete absurdity, slashes our hopes for a peaceful and wise solution to the crisis and brings us closer to a humanitarian catastrophe. Every case seems to check off the next item in the “crisis managers’” secret plan.

Conversely, every step toward overcoming social tensions, every manifestation of the people’s self-defense, every effort to be faithful to God’s commandments – all of this makes us co-authors in the positive program of the Lord’s Providence. The Ukrainian Catholic University is and will always be a supporter of this latter path and calls upon all people of good will to choose it. In the current difficult conditions, where those in power undermine the very institution of government, we aim to be an island of peace and reliable support to all those who defend the national interests of Ukraine."

risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/national_religious_question/55393/

The Ukrainian Catholic Cardinal Huzar is on the board of UCU.

Kyiv Patriarchate suspended commemoration of the President and civil authorities of Ukraine during services
20 February 2014, 15:30 | Church-state relations | 1 | | Code for Blog | |

The Holy Synod of the Kyiv Patriarchate [Ukrainian Orthodox Church] today voted to suspend commemoration of the President and civil authorities of Ukraine during services in consequence of their use of firearms against the people who they had sworn to serve and protect.

risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/state/church_state_relations/55413/

I am with my Catholic Church on this one, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (KP), and have no reason to be apologetic about my Church’s position on the Catholic Answers Forum. Yanukovych threatened the Ukrainian Catholic Church earlier, and the Roman Catholic Church came to its defense.

A lot of these answers can be found on Risu’s site.

 

[Karolinah]

Hans, I just would like to explain something in response to your question about the churches not making statements…

No one has yet cited an official document by either the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church specifically condemning Yanukovych

here is an explanation of the role of a priest…

Statement of Patriarch:

Direction from the Father and Head of the UGCC
regarding the attitudes and behavior of the clergy
in the present socio-political situation in Ukraine

1. The Church – is a community of the children of God, united in faith in the Triune God, and the priest is a servant of this community, the image of Christ - the Good Shepherd, actively present among his people.
2. Each representative of the clergy is the face of the Church and must accomplish his calling according to its public teachings. Our hope - is in God!
3. The primary task of the priest is to preach the Word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to administer the sacraments, and to lead the people in prayer, fasting, and serving the needy.
4. The Church is an active participant of societal and not the political processes. Hence, the priest has no right to be a leader in political actions or deliver political homilies.
5. The church pulpit should be used only to preach the word of God and Christian morality.
6. The priest, under all circumstances of life, is to be a peacemaker, and especially in a civil conflict. Therefore, it is strictly forbidden to proclaim calls to violence.
7. The calling of each priest, in all frightening circumstances - is not to abandon his flock and to be with them. " The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. " (Jn 10:11).
8. Setting aside all fear, a priest is called to be a witness to Christ and His truth. " ”Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Mt 24:35).
9. All members of the clergy must remember, especially in the present circumstances, the importance of obedience to the church leadership.

Dear Bishops and Fathers! In brotherly love, I embrace all of you and with you I suffer all the wounds of our people, support your priestly zeal and closeness to your flock. In these difficult times, it is so important for us to be united with God and with our neighbor through prayer and service.

May God’s blessing rest on our Church and our people!

Statement of Patriarch:

Direction from the Father and Head of the UGCC
regarding the attitudes and behavior of the clergy
in the present socio-political situation in Ukraine

1. The Church – is a community of the children of God, united in faith in the Triune God, and the priest is a servant of this community, the image of Christ - the Good Shepherd, actively present among his people.
2. Each representative of the clergy is the face of the Church and must accomplish his calling according to its public teachings. Our hope - is in God!
3. The primary task of the priest is to preach the Word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to administer the sacraments, and to lead the people in prayer, fasting, and serving the needy.
4. The Church is an active participant of societal and not the political processes. Hence, the priest has no right to be a leader in political actions or deliver political homilies.
5. The church pulpit should be used only to preach the word of God and Christian morality.
6. The priest, under all circumstances of life, is to be a peacemaker, and especially in a civil conflict. Therefore, it is strictly forbidden to proclaim calls to violence.
7. The calling of each priest, in all frightening circumstances - is not to abandon his flock and to be with them. " The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. " (Jn 10:11).
8. Setting aside all fear, a priest is called to be a witness to Christ and His truth. " ”Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.” (Mt 24:35).
9. All members of the clergy must remember, especially in the present circumstances, the importance of obedience to the church leadership.

Dear Bishops and Fathers! In brotherly love, I embrace all of you and with you I suffer all the wounds of our people, support your priestly zeal and closeness to your flock. In these difficult times, it is so important for us to be united with God and with our neighbor through prayer and service.

May God’s blessing rest on our Church and our people!

 

[Karolinah]

sorry I doubled the paste, when trying to put the patriarch’s photo…but image insert asks for a url link?

 

[josie_L]

I simply pointed out that there is zero evidence that Yanukovych was behind the attack (which is what josie L alleged in post # 108 of this thread) and that since there is zero evidence of who was resoonsible, anyone could be responsible.

Yes, I’m sure that Yanukovych is going to leave a paper trail with regards to his nefarious affairs, nevertheless, Chornobol was beaten right as she was going to expose certain government officials, including Yanukovych for corruption and improper use of pubic funds. So if you want to view this as being simply coincidental, then, you are more than welcome to this view, but again, it seems rather coincidental.

P.S. Yanukovych’s history also leads me to believe that he would have no problems using violence in order to get his way.

 

[josie_L]

A lot of these answers can be found on Risu’s site.

Which are on this thread!!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Your question was loaded.

Hobbes42 saw that.

That’s okay though, I already accepted your apology.

You are communicating with another poster, Hobbes, privately about my sincerity and to accuse me, I stress again without foundation, of “asking a loaded question” and “shameful behaviour” on my part? I asked a sincere question. You respond with an ad hominem. I asked you for an apology for wrongfully accusing me. You didn’t give one. Please leave me alone. Thank you.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Lord, through the intercession of your holy servant Blessed John Paul the Great, please free the people of Ukraine and Russia. Oh most holy Theotokos, protect your children.
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Amen

Amen.

 

[HansTrappist]

You are communicating with another poster, Hobbes, privately about my sincerity and to accuse me, I stress again without foundation, of “asking a loaded question” and “shameful behaviour” on my part?

No, actually, I never communicated privately with Hobbes42. There you go again with another baseless insinuation.

You need to step back, relax, and quit taking yourself so seriously.