Ukraine

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May God bless all those who have died, RIP and for their families. Dreadful violence. 13 now reported dead and the place is up in flames. 6 police were allegedly shot dead by protestors.
 
I’ve been listening to the live video feed from Espresso.tv of the protests, and I was surprised – I can’t speak Ukranian, but the first thing I heard was recognizably the Hail Mary. There’s been lots of prayer going on in Independence Square.

Lord, watch over the Ukraine. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for them, and for all us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death!
 
Pat_Payne said:
I’ve been listening to the live video feed from Espresso.tv of the protests, and I was surprised – I can’t speak Ukranian, but the first thing I heard was recognizably the Hail Mary. There’s been lots of prayer going on in Independence Square.

Lord, watch over the Ukraine. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for them, and for all us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death!
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Yes, I read on one site that a priest is on the stage praying, as seemingly the head of the protesters was shot by a sniper, whilst he was talking on the stage. Initially, it was thought he was killed, but others say he was taken away by ambulance.
 
pepipop said:
Yes, I read on one site that a priest is on the stage praying, as seemingly the head of the protesters was shot by a sniper, whilst he was talking on the stage. Initially, it was thought he was killed, but others say he was taken away by ambulance.
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According to other news reports, they think he was hit by a rubber bullet fired by the police, if I’m not mistaken.

RT said:
23:13 GMT:

After being hit by what was reported as a possible rubber bullet shot from a sniper, opposition leader Aleksandr Turchinov tweeted that he suffered a mild face injury, but he is okay. He added that he doubts it was a sniper that was responsible.
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Tomdstone said:
It is time for the US to stop meddling in Ukraine.
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This… this person is smart.

The US needs to keep its nosy meddling away, apparently the blood in Syria wasn’t enough, Iraq wasn’t enough, now we must need sacrifice Ukrainians and Venezuelans on our Great Bloody Altar to our goddess Democracy.
 
Hobbes42 said:
This… this person is smart.

The US needs to keep its nosy meddling away …now we must need sacrifice Ukrainians …on our Great Bloody Altar to our goddess Democracy.
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I have just been checking in and out of live coverage on espreso TV (youtube) of Independence Square where through the night it seems every twenty minutes priests and nuns lead the crowd from loudspeakers through a series of “Our Fathers”, “Hail Marys”, and prayers to Michael the Archangel for protection as the corrupt President Yanukovych sends in riot troops. Right now a priest and nun are going through the Rosary over the microphone on Kyiv’s central independence square where the protesters are located as Yanukovych’s Berkut attacks.

Don’t flatter yourself Hobbes. The US isn’t sacrificing Ukrainians; it is Ukrainians themselves who are choosing to put their very lives on the line to rid themselves of a criminal regime run by Yanukovych and who are protesting for their God-given rights to dignity and a better life for their children in a society where Yanukovych’s corruption and brutality would not be the norm. Not much is expected of Obama really. You think the State Department is telling tens of thousands of Ukrainians right now to pray to the Mother of God for protection from the violent autocrat Yanukovych?

If you think the US is behind these protests, then you are sorely misinformed about Ukraine and Ukrainians. The Ukrainian pro-democracy opposition has been trying to have the US and Europeans put sanctions against the criminal oligarchs who control 85% of Ukraine’s economy through graft and corruption (one of the biggest oligarchs being Yanukovych himself, he being a convicted rapist and assaulter). Nothing has been done but talk. Merkel has not lifted a finger.

Right now Yanukovych is fighting to keep his wealth and power and is willing to use violence. He doesn’t trust the Ukrainian Army so he sends in riot police under duress and paid-for-hire thugs. I find it hard to fathom that some Americans on CAF think every pro-democracy movement on earth must be being run by the CIA, or what have you.

In any event, there are women and teens on Independence Square in the line of fire and the dead have not even been buried, so I personally am not in any mood for another thread on how bad the US is.
 
Hobbes42 said:
This… this person is smart.

The US needs to keep its nosy meddling away, apparently the blood in Syria wasn’t enough, Iraq wasn’t enough, now we must need sacrifice Ukrainians and Venezuelans on our Great Bloody Altar to our goddess Democracy.
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The US is not involved in either of these countries .
 
oldcatholicguy said:
The US isn’t the country that has been meddling with Ukraine.
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Perhaps not. But it is certainly the lead country right now trying to architect her fate.

I think this might be yet another typically crass, crude and rude display of power and arrogance by the new Western political paradigm clique. That’s their trademark: brazen shamelessness and effrontery. They are also almost ridiculously sloppy and incompetent. A perverse application of a kind of “shock and awe,” banking a great deal on fear. The willingness to do it almost seems to be the sole, or at least foremost endearing, criteria for getting in consideration and favour with these people.

Right now the US-UK-Canada and France -and it looks like Belgium too- seem to be completely run by these folks and they are using -or rather despoiling- the international credibility of these countries on a massive, almost barn-fire scale, and a lot of countries are noticing this alarming, radical change and shift; not to mention increasingly their own populations are sensing something totally irrational about their policies and decisions, which gives them away as effectively foreign, at least in mind or agenda.

There are red flags going up almost everywhere and I have never seen political messages being sent so openly, almost to the point of direct appeal to foreign populations to do something about their governments. Not too many countries would become so sick of the traditional leaders of the Western world as to openly refuse aid or assistance even while it is desperately needed and virtually necessary for social (and political) stability, but countries are doing it even to the United States. Not too often would major international players deliberately establish transparently obvious propaganda-news outlets to directly access and appeal to the populations of other countries in order to contradict a reigning narrative, as such interference is usually considered illicit meddling in others countries’ affairs or internal political business, but more countries (by no means rich) are doing just that. Traditionally this would have met with open condemnations, but it is interesting that they are not being openly condemned, as if it is feared that this would only draw attention and raise alarms.

I think that new Netflix show, which I have never seen, is at least quite aptly named for the times we live in: House of Cards.

Now finally, and returning more to point, I think what’s going on in the Ukraine is at least partly a consequence of Obama’s and the State Departments absolute -almost obsessive and psychotic- hatred of Putin and desire to destroy him. Putin recently personally called John Kerry a bold faced liar in front of a gathering of world representatives. That never happened even during the Cold War. That frankly never happens. Anyone with ears to hear knows there is something seriously wrong and a very deep or core issue is at stake at whatever the heck the real issue is. But a common theme emerging is a lot of countries are reacting to what they loosely identify as brazen effrontery on the part of certain NATO nations’ leadership. Russia is just the most obvious and one of the few countries that can access and interfere -minimally- with internal affairs in those countries. Kenya or Uganda couldn’t do squat. Russia sometimes can pull muscle and make her thoughts and opinions known. She can sometimes contradict political narratives; and indeed has done so.
 
Like all dictators before him, President Yanukovych has disconnected the last independent TV station in Ukraine from broadcasting, 5 kanal, after putting another one, TVi, out of commission. 5 kanal can only post short clips on youtube now. Dictators hate truth, so the people are suppose to ingest state propaganda now from TV.
 
KyivAndrew said:
Like all dictators before him, President Yanukovych has disconnected the last independent TV station in Ukraine from broadcasting, 5 kanal, after putting another one, TVi, out of commission. 5 kanal can only post short clips on youtube now. Dictators hate truth, so the people are suppose to ingest state propaganda now from TV.
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Desperate measures?

I guess it depends on the circumstances before I could form a judgment.

I know that from my own experience that “independent news sources” are all too often in practice just “foreign owned and agenda driven,” often deeply subversive and corruptive, only giving themselves away when they all too blatantly offend the natural sentiments and traditions of a population in all too obvious ignorance or with a repugnant arrogance.

So in my situation I could see a fed up politician taking action to try to shut down “independent news sources” simply because he or she knows they are in reality deeply hostile and a viciously corrupting influence on the population. Of course, typical tyranny may be the root issue and our political system in the West is opposed to politicians privately taking it upon themselves to cast judgment on what is or isn’t best for the people. However, while we like to demonize tyranny - it being the worst form of evil government - a plutocracy isn’t much better and could be worse, insomuch as greed or the love of money is the root of all evil.

From what I know though about the Ukraine’s present situation, the current President is about as screwed as a politician could be and therefore in a very dangerous and desperate situation. It would seem that just about everybody agrees at least in not particularly liking him or, at best, not caring whether he stays or is replaced - the EU, the US and Russia. This puts him and the Ukraine in an awkward position because it becomes all too tempting to treat the Ukraine like a toy or a common problem that everyone feels entitled to solve - except, possibly, the Ukrainian people. It also means the Ukraine’s Head of State is quite possibly a very dangerous man. He could still do a lot of damage whether by action or a failure to act.

One thing is sure, though, the loudest supporters in the West of the opposition in the Ukraine are not themselves particularly credible in their own countries and this will affect the judgment of outside observers about the opposition. Sure a broken clock is still right twice a day but it doesn’t do you any favours the rest of the time and it’s safer to bet a broken clock is wrong rather than accidentally or coincidentally right for the brief two minutes it just so happens to be.

I don’t envy the Ukrainian people right now; but God works in mysterious ways, and seems to like determining outcomes unpredictably when men most think it is they who are the ones in control.
 
So many countries are starting revolutions, so many countries are destroying themselves.

The people rise up against the governments, and the government responds. How many more places will be caught up in this wave of violence?

When will it hit our own shores?

The last couple of popes were almost prophetic, were they not?

Pope Francis says that
“How I would like a church that is poor, and that is for the poor.”
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Maybe this is just not a statement of the Pope’s own personal feelings, but a reality of the poverty that is slowly coming into the world?

And before that Pope Benedict.
“The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning.
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She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members….
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It will be hard-going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek . . . The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain . . . But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.
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And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”
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Maybe this is because the world will become so broken that we will once again be a very poor Church, and truly once again be one with the masses.
 
You know the funny and sad thing on these threads is that at least 20 Ukrainians, mostly protesters, are dead, 400 injured, and not a word of sympathy or a prayer on a Catholic Forum (apart from a few merciful souls), just mostly posts that automatically turn coldly and irrationally anti-American and anti-Western and might as well have been written by Noam Chomsky by some of posters on threads like these. And they are being posted by people who hate the West yet ironically are posting from the comfort of the US/Canada where they enjoy simple liberties that people in Ukraine are now risking their lives for.

Absolutely unbelievable! which makes me absolutely reluctant to engage on threads like these and as far as I can tell I’m the only Ukrainian poster on this thread with family over there.
 
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