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josie_L
Guest
They will have to oust the government first.
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RosyAnne
Guest
Possibly. On one hand that’s true. Another possibility to consider: what if the Russian “influence” that’s currently behind the seat of power is the only thing that’s keeping the West and its agenda from overtaking Ukraine?
I have no pony in this race. I love, LOVE, very much the Ukrainian people. All my life I have been surrounded by truly wonderful, charitable, Canadian Ukrainians and consider them all a saving gift from God to me (won’t explain).
You have to realize there are two different approaches from Russia vs. The West. Russia is crude, coarse, obnoxious and likes to show its muscles. It can also be very sneaky and quiet behind the scenes. Today’s non-Christian West is more slithery in some ways. Its MO is to make it seem like YOUR IDEA. It likes things to look more organic and driven from the bottom up (from the people rather than politics). It’s fond of manipulating emotions and thrives on finding new and better ways to do it. We are going to see more and more of this around the world.
Frankly, we can’t trust either of them. So the question is: Is Ukraine strong enough to barricade itself and protect itself from BOTH Russian and The West because both are like an invasive virus. No. I really don’t think it is.
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HansTrappist
Guest
Dimitri Babich, a Moscow-based radio host with the Voice of Russia, was interviewed by PressTV (I know, I know) and I find some of his remarks very telling:
"During the whole day the EU Commission Head, Mr. Barroso, the head of the EU diplomacy Catherine Ashton, they have been talking about sanctions against Ukraine and they are going to target government officials, they are going to target Mr. Yanukovych’s family and friends and they** are not** going to target the nationalists who are indeed responsible for what happened and the Polish prime minister, for example, blamed Russia for the violence in Ukraine; although not a single Russian official visited Ukraine during the last three months while for example Catherine Ashton spent several days there and the Polish officials also visited Ukraine many times. So indeed this is a direct interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state…
…Catherine Ashton met publically with the leader of the Svoboda Party, Mr. Oleh Tyahnybok, who openly accused Russians and Jews for everything that happened in Ukraine, for all of Ukraine’s misfortunes. On several occasion he did that.
The EU is not going to support him publically but the EU officials meet him and the EU officials absolutely required from the Ukrainian authorities not to bring these people to justice.
When Mr. Yanukovych, just two days ago, released 234 so-called protesters, who are indeed not protesters but criminals, because these were not just the people expressed their opinions, they were the people who were burning policemen alive, who were attacking government buildings; so all of them were released and then the US state department also required from the Ukrainian government to stop all investigations into their activities, to drop all the criminal cases.
So you have this indirect support from the European Union and from the United States. They shield these groups from any kind of government repression, from any kind of punishment from the government and indeed the position of the European Union is very, very hypocritical. On the one hand they say that we only support the liberals, we only support the peaceful demonstrators but you can see with your own eyes that the people who are burning cars, people who are burning trucks, people who attack police with Molotov cocktails, these are not peaceful demonstrators and the EU supports them, so you just need to look at the television screen to understand that the EU is very hypocritical and that it indeed supports neo-Nazis without saying so openly.
The problem with the EU officials is that they live in a mythological world created by their own press and the Ukrainian extremist nationalists; they also live in a mythological world that they created for themselves. For example today in Lviv which is in the west of Ukraine, the most nationalist part of Ukraine, the people blocked the military units; they prevented soldiers from entering and exiting their barracks but this is not the Soviet Army, the Soviet Army does not exist, it has not been there for 22 years now.
This is their Ukrainian army, their Ukrainian 18-year-old boys who are serving there; but they think that these are some sort of internal occupiers, these are enemies of the people, these are Kremlin’s stooges; so you have these conspiracy mentality, which unfortunately spread itself to the European press.
You know, a lot of journalists in the UK, in Germany, in France, especially in Poland they repeat these lies and the European officials seem to be , sort of, taken hostage by these lies. They come to Kiev, they see the violence from the extremist groups but they believe their press, they do not believe their own eyes…"
presstv.ir/detail/2014/02/20/351478/west-shields-neonazis-in-ukraine/
"During the whole day the EU Commission Head, Mr. Barroso, the head of the EU diplomacy Catherine Ashton, they have been talking about sanctions against Ukraine and they are going to target government officials, they are going to target Mr. Yanukovych’s family and friends and they** are not** going to target the nationalists who are indeed responsible for what happened and the Polish prime minister, for example, blamed Russia for the violence in Ukraine; although not a single Russian official visited Ukraine during the last three months while for example Catherine Ashton spent several days there and the Polish officials also visited Ukraine many times. So indeed this is a direct interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state…
…Catherine Ashton met publically with the leader of the Svoboda Party, Mr. Oleh Tyahnybok, who openly accused Russians and Jews for everything that happened in Ukraine, for all of Ukraine’s misfortunes. On several occasion he did that.
The EU is not going to support him publically but the EU officials meet him and the EU officials absolutely required from the Ukrainian authorities not to bring these people to justice.
When Mr. Yanukovych, just two days ago, released 234 so-called protesters, who are indeed not protesters but criminals, because these were not just the people expressed their opinions, they were the people who were burning policemen alive, who were attacking government buildings; so all of them were released and then the US state department also required from the Ukrainian government to stop all investigations into their activities, to drop all the criminal cases.
So you have this indirect support from the European Union and from the United States. They shield these groups from any kind of government repression, from any kind of punishment from the government and indeed the position of the European Union is very, very hypocritical. On the one hand they say that we only support the liberals, we only support the peaceful demonstrators but you can see with your own eyes that the people who are burning cars, people who are burning trucks, people who attack police with Molotov cocktails, these are not peaceful demonstrators and the EU supports them, so you just need to look at the television screen to understand that the EU is very hypocritical and that it indeed supports neo-Nazis without saying so openly.
The problem with the EU officials is that they live in a mythological world created by their own press and the Ukrainian extremist nationalists; they also live in a mythological world that they created for themselves. For example today in Lviv which is in the west of Ukraine, the most nationalist part of Ukraine, the people blocked the military units; they prevented soldiers from entering and exiting their barracks but this is not the Soviet Army, the Soviet Army does not exist, it has not been there for 22 years now.
This is their Ukrainian army, their Ukrainian 18-year-old boys who are serving there; but they think that these are some sort of internal occupiers, these are enemies of the people, these are Kremlin’s stooges; so you have these conspiracy mentality, which unfortunately spread itself to the European press.
You know, a lot of journalists in the UK, in Germany, in France, especially in Poland they repeat these lies and the European officials seem to be , sort of, taken hostage by these lies. They come to Kiev, they see the violence from the extremist groups but they believe their press, they do not believe their own eyes…"
presstv.ir/detail/2014/02/20/351478/west-shields-neonazis-in-ukraine/
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Seamus_L
Guest
Some interesting reports
1.Part of the truce calls for the surrender of all illegal firearms within 24 hrs.
2.A bill of impeachment against the president has been introduced in the parliament.
3.A section of the protesters demanding Yanukovych step down by 10am Saturday or they will resume hostilities.
1.Part of the truce calls for the surrender of all illegal firearms within 24 hrs.
2.A bill of impeachment against the president has been introduced in the parliament.
3.A section of the protesters demanding Yanukovych step down by 10am Saturday or they will resume hostilities.
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HansTrappist
Guest
And guess who authored that bill of impeachment?
Nikolay Rudkovskiy, that’s who, the head of the Socialist Party in Ukraine.
View attachment 19357
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josie_L
Guest
With regards to the “Voice of Russia” that Hans Trappist is using as a source:
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HansTrappist
Guest
So, you use an article that I didn’t cite in your attempt to discredit the interview that I did cite, which you totally ignored.
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josie_L
Guest
Apparently, the only people not lying is the Russian news networks!! And we know how democratic Russia has become under Putin, i.e., freedom of expression, speech, conscience, religion . . . etc., have grown exponentially!!!
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HansTrappist
Guest
Yes, its all Putin’s fault.Apparently, the only people not lying is the Russian news networks!! And we know how democratic Russia has become under Putin, i.e., freedom of expression, speech, conscience, religion . . . etc., have grown exponentially!!!
Was it Vladimir Putin or Victoria Nuland who traveled to Independence Square to take sides in this conflict?
Was it Vladimir Putin or John McCain who traveled to Independence Square to take sides in this conflict?
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josie_L
Guest
He works for the Voice of Russia (a pro-Putin network), do you think he was going to say anything negative about Russia and even suggest that they have anything to do with what’s happening in the Ukraine?So, you use an article that I didn’t cite in your attempt to discredit the interview that I did cite, which you totally ignored.
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HansTrappist
Guest
So, in other words, the fact that he lives in Russia and works for a Russia newspaper makes his opinion suspect? Thank you for not responding to the points he raised and instead resorting to predictable fallaciesHe works for the Voice of Russia (a pro-Putin network), do you think he was going to say anything negative about Russia and even suggest that they have anything to do with what’s happening in the Ukraine?
By the way, every news network is “pro” somebody. Or, are only Western media outlets trustworthy and unbiased?
What I find truly “suspect” is that the head of the Socialist Party in Ukraine, Nikolay Rudkovskiy, authored the bill to impeach Yanukovich. By the way, the Socialist Party of Ukraine was created by the former members of the Soviet-era Communist Party of Ukraine in late 1991 when the Communist Party was banned.
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Seamus_L
Guest
Russian news media have done a pretty good job of exposing government tyranny and police brutality in the United States, something are own so called free press aren’t very good at.
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josie_L
Guest
Maybe you missed the part where Kyiv said that the “Voice of Russia” is pro-Putin because of PUTIN, thereby anyone who works for “Voice of Russia” is simply toeing the Putin line (not exactly a credible source).
P.S. And I’ve already responded to the points made by your sources in all of my previous posts!
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josie_L
Guest
But the question is does the Russian news media expose their own government’s tyranny and police brutality (not to mention their involvement in Ukrainian politics)?
P.S. And I would think that at least Fox News is willing to stand up to government tyranny and police brutality. Not to mention, our own news network, Sun News (which is Canadian, but anyone can access it online).
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I know one thing. If I were Ukrainian, a real one, not a Russian living in Ukraine who identifies with Russia and not Ukraine, I would never want to be ruled by Russia again. Never. I would never want my country to be dependent on Russia. I would never want my leaders to be in bed with Russia. I would want my country’s political connections to be as far away from Russia as possible. I would want their fleet out of Sevastopol. I would want their sailors and soldiers out of Ukraine.
But that’s not Russia’s intent:
“Russia will never give up its naval base in Ukraine’s port of Sevastopol on the Crimean peninsula, ex-commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet Adm. Igor Kasatonov said.”
Do we not remember how the very grandparents of adult Ukrainians today welcomed the Germans (!) with bread and salt because the Germans drove the Russians out? Do we not remember the reprisals when the Russians returned? Do we really think Ukrainians have forgotten all of that? Jews have long enough memories to remember the Holocaust. Do we not credit Ukrainians with equally long memories of the Holocaust visited on them by the Russians? Even Solzhenitsyn, who was as devoted to Russia as Russians ever get, declared that Russia can never redeem her soul until she allows Ukraine total and complete independence.
But the Russian navy is still at Sevastopol, and Russia still tries to influence what happens in Ukraine. And if I was a Ukrainian, I would react very, very negatively to anything that remotely looked like growing Russian influence.
But that’s not Russia’s intent:
“Russia will never give up its naval base in Ukraine’s port of Sevastopol on the Crimean peninsula, ex-commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet Adm. Igor Kasatonov said.”
Do we not remember how the very grandparents of adult Ukrainians today welcomed the Germans (!) with bread and salt because the Germans drove the Russians out? Do we not remember the reprisals when the Russians returned? Do we really think Ukrainians have forgotten all of that? Jews have long enough memories to remember the Holocaust. Do we not credit Ukrainians with equally long memories of the Holocaust visited on them by the Russians? Even Solzhenitsyn, who was as devoted to Russia as Russians ever get, declared that Russia can never redeem her soul until she allows Ukraine total and complete independence.
But the Russian navy is still at Sevastopol, and Russia still tries to influence what happens in Ukraine. And if I was a Ukrainian, I would react very, very negatively to anything that remotely looked like growing Russian influence.
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KyivAndrew
Guest
dear josie, I kind of feel like that line they always show of Al Pacino, “just when I thought I was out…they bring me back in”, or something like that
Obviously, my posts have continued on this thread, without my knowledge, thanks to you
I started reading this thread with your solid points and then I noticed my name was popping up.
That’s O.K. I’ve kind of gotten some p.m.s also asking about Ukraine by some good posters on this thread and others not on this thread, which I feel obligated to answer now, so I might as well do it publicly, though this thread is moving quickly.
The reason I said I was done here was pretty simple: I know people on the Maidan who can’t be described as radicals at all, one of whom was killed by a sniper’s bullet from Berkut this week. This young fellow worked for a charity from Canada which each summer volunteered its time to help Ukrainian orphans. It’s God’s work.
In Yanukovych’s Ukraine, any budgetary raises have gone to Berkut and the Internal Ministry, not to helping Ukraine’s poor, its orphans who live in miserable conditions, or Ukraine’s weak. As I have said many times before, Yanukovych was the head of the most vicious brutal underworld gang in Ukraine from Donetsk. He spent time in prison for rape and assault. He is now simply defending himself and the assets he has accumulated. Moscow lent Yanukovych some money, which was used to raise the wages of Berkut and to purchase weapons from Moscow, many planeloads according to the reputable Ukrainska Pravda paper.
So this young man who helped Ukraine’s orphans is now dead. The chief doctor at one of the makeshift hospitals on the Maidan pointed out how in her professional opinion Berkut snipers were aiming for eyes, throat as witnessed by the similar wounds. And again it bears mentioning, that on Yanukovych’s orders, the violence started with Berkut. But not all Berkut are prepared to fulfill Yanukovych’s orders.
I kind of thought I’d stop posting as it was fruitless trying to make any points anymore and thoroughly demoralizing.
I’ll see. I rather agree with one of Canada’s nationally syndicated Catholic columnists Father Raymond J. De Souza who wrote: A day’s drive from Sochi, people are killed with Putin’s connivance in the National Post:
fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/02/20/father-raymond-j-de-souza-a-days-drive-from-sochi-people-are-killed-with-putins-connivance/
It was written yesterday. It should be noted that if Yanukovych wishes to avoid bloodshed in Ukraine, he should resign. Immediately. Even his own party is deserting him. He is staying on because his sons have become billionaires and he doesn’t want to lose that money.
I agree with Father de Souza and with the hierarchs of the Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox church in Ukraine on who is to blame for the violence, not with Vladimir Putin’s opinion.
Vladimir Putin? A man proud of his work for the KGB who glorifies the cold-blooded KGB killer Yuri Andropov, the Andropov who sent tens of thousands of “enemies of the state” to psychiatric asylums or the Gulag in Soviet times. Putin: a man who compares to Lenin’s corpse to the relics of saints.
rbth.ru/articles/2012/12/11/putin_says_lenin_should_stay_on_red_square_21027.html
Putin has created Andropov scholarships for graduates of Russia’s secret police academy. No joke. Yes, Yuri Andropov is a great role model in Putin’s eyes for Russia’s elite in the Lubyanka. I agree squarely with Father de Souza on Putin and Yanukovych.
Obviously, my posts have continued on this thread, without my knowledge, thanks to you
I started reading this thread with your solid points and then I noticed my name was popping up.That’s O.K.
I’ve kind of gotten some p.m.s also asking about Ukraine by some good posters on this thread and others not on this thread, which I feel obligated to answer now, so I might as well do it publicly, though this thread is moving quickly.The reason I said I was done here was pretty simple: I know people on the Maidan who can’t be described as radicals at all, one of whom was killed by a sniper’s bullet from Berkut this week. This young fellow worked for a charity from Canada which each summer volunteered its time to help Ukrainian orphans. It’s God’s work.
In Yanukovych’s Ukraine, any budgetary raises have gone to Berkut and the Internal Ministry, not to helping Ukraine’s poor, its orphans who live in miserable conditions, or Ukraine’s weak. As I have said many times before, Yanukovych was the head of the most vicious brutal underworld gang in Ukraine from Donetsk. He spent time in prison for rape and assault. He is now simply defending himself and the assets he has accumulated. Moscow lent Yanukovych some money, which was used to raise the wages of Berkut and to purchase weapons from Moscow, many planeloads according to the reputable Ukrainska Pravda paper.
So this young man who helped Ukraine’s orphans is now dead. The chief doctor at one of the makeshift hospitals on the Maidan pointed out how in her professional opinion Berkut snipers were aiming for eyes, throat as witnessed by the similar wounds. And again it bears mentioning, that on Yanukovych’s orders, the violence started with Berkut. But not all Berkut are prepared to fulfill Yanukovych’s orders.
I kind of thought I’d stop posting as it was fruitless trying to make any points anymore and thoroughly demoralizing.
I’ll see. I rather agree with one of Canada’s nationally syndicated Catholic columnists Father Raymond J. De Souza who wrote: A day’s drive from Sochi, people are killed with Putin’s connivance in the National Post:
fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/02/20/father-raymond-j-de-souza-a-days-drive-from-sochi-people-are-killed-with-putins-connivance/
It was written yesterday. It should be noted that if Yanukovych wishes to avoid bloodshed in Ukraine, he should resign. Immediately. Even his own party is deserting him. He is staying on because his sons have become billionaires and he doesn’t want to lose that money.
I agree with Father de Souza and with the hierarchs of the Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox church in Ukraine on who is to blame for the violence, not with Vladimir Putin’s opinion.
Vladimir Putin? A man proud of his work for the KGB who glorifies the cold-blooded KGB killer Yuri Andropov, the Andropov who sent tens of thousands of “enemies of the state” to psychiatric asylums or the Gulag in Soviet times. Putin: a man who compares to Lenin’s corpse to the relics of saints.
rbth.ru/articles/2012/12/11/putin_says_lenin_should_stay_on_red_square_21027.html
Putin has created Andropov scholarships for graduates of Russia’s secret police academy. No joke. Yes, Yuri Andropov is a great role model in Putin’s eyes for Russia’s elite in the Lubyanka. I agree squarely with Father de Souza on Putin and Yanukovych.
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josie_L
Guest
Most Ukrainians are anti-Yanukovych (this is less about anti-Russian sentiments, even though I believe they are supporting Yanukovych), i.e., they want his government ousted. The problem is, will it be ousted if foreign interference is determined to keep him there?
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KyivAndrew
Guest
The Communist Party still exists in Ukraine - in fact it is the major ally of Yanukovych’s Regions Party in Ukraine’s Parliament. Both are immoral forces in Ukraine. (The Communist Party’s deputy head Kalietnik is a millionaire). There is no Socialist Party in Ukraine’s Parliament. Ukraine’s Communist Party provides Yanukovych with a plurality of votes. If the Socialist Party draws your suspicion, then I assume you would be even more suspicious of Yanukovych’s ally in Ukraine’s Parliament - the Communist Party of Ukraine. They still have the hammer and sickle, love Lenin, and support Yanukovych.What I find truly “suspect” is that the head of the Socialist Party in Ukraine, Nikolay Rudkovskiy, authored the bill to impeach Yanukovich. By the way, the Socialist Party of Ukraine was created by the former members of the Soviet-era Communist Party of Ukraine in late 1991 when the Communist Party was banned.
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KyivAndrew
Guest
Seamus, can you find me one story on the major Russian TV news stations or on RT where Putin is criticized? Thanks.
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HansTrappist
Guest
Whether Voice of Russia or any other “source” is credible depends on the methods and information that they are reporting. One then examines this information and compares it to other sources to determine credibility.
And please, quit acting like Vladimir Putin is some sort of monster or dictator. It gets boring after a while.
No, actually, you did not.
You responded to the interview of Dimitri Babich that I cited by insinuating that because Mr. Babich is a reporter for Voice of Russia, his reporting must be disqualified. Such logic is utterly fallacious and rather childish.
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