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Crimea also has deep symbolic meaning for Russia, due to the Crimean War.
What can we give to Russia to allow Crimea to have Assn option to become its own nation, since Rosita insists, that Crimea is in fear of Ukraine?

Pigs? New brand of potatoes? McDonalds?

Would it matter?

Help me to understand: was there ever an ethnic identity to Crimea proper? When did it stop? When were ethnic Russians moved in there?
 
I’d be more interested in finding out how intervention was applied, who ordered it and for what purpose. Did a government agency order it? Was it a foreign policy think tank, or a group of globalist free-market bankers? …this is what i would be womdering, assuming anything of the sort even happened in the first place.
Well, yes, I’d like to know to what capacity they may have intervened, but just remember that Yanukovych’s actions have nothing to do with the U.S or that which led the people to revolt?
 
Someone asked for a history of Crimea, here is a short one:

Crimea

History


Known in ancient times as Tauris, the peninsula was the home of the Cimmerian people, called the Tauri. Expelled from the steppe by the Scythians in the 7th cent. B.C., they founded (5th cent. B.C.) the kingdom of Cimmerian Bosporus, which later came under Greek influence. Ionian and Dorian Greeks began to colonize the coast in the 6th cent., and the peninsula became the major source of wheat for ancient Greece. In the 1st cent. B.C., the kingdom of Pontus began to rule the Greek part of the peninsula, which became a Roman protectorate in the 1st cent. A.D. During the next millennium the area was overrun by Ostrogoths, Huns, Khazars, Cumans, and in 1239, by the Mongols of the Golden Horde. Meanwhile, the southern shore was mostly under Byzantine control from the 6th to the 12th cent.

Trade relations were established (11th–13th cent.) with Kievan Rus, and in the 13th cent. Genoa founded prosperous coastal commercial settlements. After Timur’s destruction of the Golden Horde, the Tatars established (1475) an independent khanate in N and central Crimea. In the late 15th cent. both the khanate and the southern coastal towns were conquered by the Ottoman Empire; the Turks called the peninsula Crimea. Although they became Turkish vassals, the Crimean Tatars were powerful rulers who became the scourge of Ukraine and Poland, exacted tribute from the Russian czars, and raided Moscow as late as 1572.

Russian armies first invaded the Crimea in 1736. Empress Catherine II forced Turkey to recognize the khanate’s independence in 1774, and in 1783 she annexed it outright; the annexation was confirmed by the Treaty of Jassy (1792). Many Tatars, with their Muslim religion and Turkic language, emigrated to Turkey, while Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Germans, Armenians, and Greeks settled in the Crimea. During the Crimean War (1853–56), parts of the remaining Tatar population were resettled in the interior of Russia.

After the Bolshevik Revolution (1917) an independent Crimean republic was proclaimed; but the region was soon occupied by German forces and then became a refuge for the White Army. In 1921 a Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created; Tatars then constituted about 25% of the population. During World War II, German invaders took the Crimea after an eight-month siege. Accused by the Soviet government of collaborating with the Germans, the Crimean Tatars were forcibly removed from their homeland after the war and resettled in distant parts of the Asian USSR. The republic itself was dissolved (1945) and made into a region of the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic; in 1954 it was transferred to Ukraine. In 1989, Tatars began to return from their exile in Siberia and Central Asia.

In 1991, President Mikhail Gorbachev was vacationing in Crimea at the time of the August Coup. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia and Ukraine engaged in negotiations over the possession of Crimea and the disposition of the former Soviet fleet based in the Black Sea. In 1992 there was an abortive attempt by the Russian-dominated Crimean government to declare independence. Elected Crimea’s first president in 1994, Yuri Meshkov called for the rejoining of the Crimea with Russia. In 1995, Crimea’s government was placed under national control and Meshkov was ousted, but its assembly was retained. An accord the same year between Ukraine and Russia called for the division of the Black Sea fleet, and in 1997 it was agreed that Russia would be allowed to base its portion of the fleet there for 20 years. Tensions between Crimea’s ethnic Russians and the Ukrainian national government continue to mark Crimean and Ukrainian politics; another source of tension have been demands by repatriated Tatars for land.

Read more: Crimea: History | Infoplease.com infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/crimea-history.html#ixzz2vPFDfq2K
 
We’re toying with WWIII …
used to be a fan of Bill O’Reilly until (among a few other reasons) in my humble opinion he started sounding like a nuclear tipped “pin-head”;
that is, thank God he did finally deny having any appetite for war in one of his more recent appearances.

Do Ukrainians expect the USA to go to war over this?
Do any of you other folks expect it?
Anyway, yes, that’s why I’m giving Putin and Mother Russia the benefit of the doubt …
it used to be Russian territory and the Crimea protects the soft under-belly of Russia so I personally understand why Putin wants it.

PS:
Take a look at the demographics of Russia:

Could you do Putin’s job?
Big deal … he was once in the KBG (the state security (like the FBI or the CIA));
But I still respect him and he did announce back in 2008 that he would take Crimea if anything like the Ukraine trying to join NATO were to happen.

rex
Another piece to the puzzle, I didn’t know that. So the West are rattling his chain then. Did they assume he would renege on his promise and roll over and play dead.
 
Someone asked for a history of Crimea, here is a short one:

Crimea

History


Known in ancient times as Tauris, the peninsula was the home of the Cimmerian people, called the Tauri. Expelled from the steppe by the Scythians in the 7th cent. B.C., they founded (5th cent. B.C.) the kingdom of Cimmerian Bosporus, which later came under Greek influence. Ionian and Dorian Greeks began to colonize the coast in the 6th cent., and the peninsula became the major source of wheat for ancient Greece. In the 1st cent. B.C., the kingdom of Pontus began to rule the Greek part of the peninsula, which became a Roman protectorate in the 1st cent. A.D. During the next millennium the area was overrun by Ostrogoths, Huns, Khazars, Cumans, and in 1239, by the Mongols of the Golden Horde. Meanwhile, the southern shore was mostly under Byzantine control from the 6th to the 12th cent.

Trade relations were established (11th–13th cent.) with Kievan Rus, and in the 13th cent. Genoa founded prosperous coastal commercial settlements. After Timur’s destruction of the Golden Horde, the Tatars established (1475) an independent khanate in N and central Crimea. In the late 15th cent. both the khanate and the southern coastal towns were conquered by the Ottoman Empire; the Turks called the peninsula Crimea. Although they became Turkish vassals, the Crimean Tatars were powerful rulers who became the scourge of Ukraine and Poland, exacted tribute from the Russian czars, and raided Moscow as late as 1572.

Russian armies first invaded the Crimea in 1736. Empress Catherine II forced Turkey to recognize the khanate’s independence in 1774, and in 1783 she annexed it outright; the annexation was confirmed by the Treaty of Jassy (1792). Many Tatars, with their Muslim religion and Turkic language, emigrated to Turkey, while Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Germans, Armenians, and Greeks settled in the Crimea. During the Crimean War (1853–56), parts of the remaining Tatar population were resettled in the interior of Russia.

After the Bolshevik Revolution (1917) an independent Crimean republic was proclaimed; but the region was soon occupied by German forces and then became a refuge for the White Army. In 1921 a Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created; Tatars then constituted about 25% of the population. During World War II, German invaders took the Crimea after an eight-month siege. Accused by the Soviet government of collaborating with the Germans, the Crimean Tatars were forcibly removed from their homeland after the war and resettled in distant parts of the Asian USSR. The republic itself was dissolved (1945) and made into a region of the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic; in 1954 it was transferred to Ukraine. In 1989, Tatars began to return from their exile in Siberia and Central Asia.

In 1991, President Mikhail Gorbachev was vacationing in Crimea at the time of the August Coup. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia and Ukraine engaged in negotiations over the possession of Crimea and the disposition of the former Soviet fleet based in the Black Sea. In 1992 there was an abortive attempt by the Russian-dominated Crimean government to declare independence. Elected Crimea’s first president in 1994, Yuri Meshkov called for the rejoining of the Crimea with Russia. In 1995, Crimea’s government was placed under national control and Meshkov was ousted, but its assembly was retained. An accord the same year between Ukraine and Russia called for the division of the Black Sea fleet, and in 1997 it was agreed that Russia would be allowed to base its portion of the fleet there for 20 years. Tensions between Crimea’s ethnic Russians and the Ukrainian national government continue to mark Crimean and Ukrainian politics; another source of tension have been demands by repatriated Tatars for land.

Read more: Crimea: History | Infoplease.com infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/crimea-history.html#ixzz2vPFDfq2K
I notice the 1954 part was referred to in half a line, the crux of the problem.
 
Do Ukrainians expect the USA to go to war over this?
Do any of you other folks expect it?
Anyway, yes, that’s why I’m giving Putin and Mother Russia the benefit of the doubt …
it used to be Russian territory and the Crimea protects the soft under-belly of Russia so I personally understand why Putin wants it.
The operative words, being “used to be” (although I’m not so sure the Tatars would feel the same). And Russia is not my mother!
Could you do Putin’s job?
Big deal … he was once in the KBG (the state security (like the FBI or the CIA));
But I still respect him and he did announce back in 2008 that he would take Crimea if anything like the Ukraine trying to join NATO were to happen.
Many in Russia could do his job if only he would let them. :cool:
 
No, I haven’t as I don’t believe there was going to be a civil war, i.e., things have only escalated since Putin established his occupation in the Crimea. It is a pretext. Just like the referendum is a sham.
Well that’s not what the Russian Ukrainians think. The first thing the government did was to remove Russian as the second official language The EU had to intervene and tell them not to marginalise minority groups. Oh yes, there is every chance of a civil war - numerous Ukrainains have mentioned the antics of the new ‘nazi’ government, as they call them, I posted a while back with a link to video showing same.
 
Well that’s not what the Russian Ukrainians think. The first thing the government did was to remove Russian as the second official language The EU had to intervene and tell them not to marginalise minority groups. Oh yes, there is every chance of a civil war - numerous Ukrainains have mentioned the antics of the new ‘nazi’ government, as they call them, I posted a while back with a link to video showing same.
Hmm, so the majority of people in the Crimea were scared for their lives, even though as you yourself pointed out they were persuaded by the EU not to remove Russian as a second official language? You mean that’s all it took, i.e., no EU occupation of the Ukraine was necessary, see how diplomacy works!! 👍
 
And Russia is not my mother!
Russia is not your mother (just the old tag attached to Russia), but if the Russians didn’t sacrifice ~21 million of their people in WWII you might have found yourself paying homage to the German Fatherland today. :tsktsk:

rex
 
Russia is not your mother (just the old tag attached to Russia), but if the Russians didn’t sacrifice ~21 million of their people in WWII you might have found yourself paying homage to the German Fatherland today. :tsktsk:
Hitler made a tactical error by invading Russia, just like Napolean did, he was bound to lose, however, the loss of Russians is a travesty, but so too, the Ukrainians who sacrificed their lives “fighting” against both Nazism and Communism:
  1. During World War II, Ukrainian population lost another 10 million people. Hitler occupied Ukraine totally, and the well-manicured fields and villages of Ukraine were repeatedly a battleground. Both Stalin and Hitler wanted to erase Ukrainians, both burned out Ukraine upon retreat, leaving uncounted numbers to die from starvation and exposure in the winter. **Subsequently, Stalin publicly listed those casualties as Russian casualties, not Ukrainian. In later years, Khrushchev included 16 million civilians. The majority of these victims were non-Russian, mostly Ukrainians **(infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-01.html, 2004).
Ukraine lost more people in WW II than any other European country, estimated at 11 million people by Stephan G. Prociuk (Annals of the Ukrainian Academy of Arts and Sciences in the US):
“At the end of the war, Ukraine lay in ruins; the populations had declined by 25 per cent – that is by approximately 10.5 million people; 6.8 million killed or died of hunger or disease, and the remainder had been evacuated or deported to Soviet Asia as political prisoners or had ended up as slave labor or émigrés in Hitler’s Germany…” wrote Ann Lencyk Pawliczko in Ukraine and Ukrainians Throughout the World (University of Toronto Press, 1994, p.62).
Still others estimate Ukrainian losses at 13.9 million. “The Museum of World War II in the capital Kiev has a simple sign on marble which states: ‘In 1940 in Ukraine lived 41.3 million people. In 1945 - 27.4 million people.’ About 8 million Ukrainian citizens [not soldiers] (other estimates say 10 million) were killed in World War II” wrote Andrew Gregorovich, 1998-2000.
According to the University of Hawaii democide table, Slavs were killed at twice the rate of the Jews. Also, it shows the heaviest democide at over 12 million USSR population (Univ. of Hawaii). **Remember, that Ukrainians were listed as citizens of USSR and Poland; and Hitler occupied Ukraine for 3 years before he entered Russia proper **(hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.TAB1.1.GIF, 2004).
Norman Davies, professor and author of God’s Playgound: A History of Poland, calculated that approximately five million Jews died in the war, compared with five million ethnic Poles and as many as 11 million Ukrainians.
:tsktsk:
 
Hmm, so the majority of people in the Crimea were scared for their lives, even though as you yourself pointed out they were persuaded by the EU not to remove Russian as a second official language? You mean that’s all it took, i.e., no EU occupation of the Ukraine was necessary, see how diplomacy works!! 👍
Here’s a humanitarian Candaian organisation’s view on the Ukraine government:

globalresearch.ca/whos-who-in-ukraines-new-semi-fascist-government-meet-the-people-the-u-s-and-eu-are-supporting/5372422

*The U.S. and European Union countries played a key role in the overthrow of the elected government in the Ukraine headed by Victor Yanukovych and the Party of Regions. Listening to the politicians in Washington or watching the corporate media, it would be easy to believe that the coup in the Ukraine has ushered in new era of democracy for the people of that country.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The new, self-appointed government in Kiev is a coalition between right-wing and outright fascist forces, and the line between the two is often difficult to discern. Moreover, it is the fascist forces, particularly the Svoboda party and the Right Sector, who are in the ascendancy, as evidenced by the fact that they have been given key government positions in charge of the military and other core elements of the state apparatus.

A few weeks before the Feb. 24 coup, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland, then in Kiev to support the anti-government protests, was recorded calling for Yatsenyuk to become the new leader. Yatsenyuk is a banker, very Western-oriented, and seen as sure to accede to the demands of the International Monetary Fund and the international banks for austerity measures in exchange for a “bailout” of the Ukraine’s debt.

n 2005, Tyahnybok signed an open letter to Ukraine leaders denouncing the “criminal activities” of “organized Jewry” who, he claimed, wanted to commit “genocide” against Ukrainian people.

Support for the fascists is surging in the Ukraine. In 2006, Svoboda received .36 of 1 percent in the elections; in 2012 it became the fourth largest party in the Rada (parliament) with 10.45 percent of the vote and 37 seats out of 450. In a public opinion poll taken at the beginning of February, 54 percent said they would vote for Tyahnybok for president if he ran against Yanukovych. (The poll was held three weeks before the overthrow of Yanukovych.)

The smiling faces of Victoria Nuland and Sen. John McCain, among other U.S. officials, have appeared in countless photos with Tyahnybok in recent months.*
 
I notice the 1954 part was referred to in half a line, the crux of the problem.
I was unclear, my fault.

I want to know if anyone in Crimea today has a, sense of Crimean nationalism independent from Ukraine and Russia. Of course the history of the ethnic population is mixed, varied, if you will.

Is there not a substantial piece of culture that Crimeans can claim and call upon? Is there even such thing as a “true” Crimean who, although, born on Ukrainian soil, isn’t an ethnic Russian or Muslim?
.
If a country doesn’t have a collective national identity and doesn’t want to create one (like the North American countries did), then no wonder no one is fussing for independence in the referendum.

If, however, there IS a sense of national identity and independence hasn’t been offered, then that is an injustice.
 
Crimean Tatars ties to the region pre-dates Russia’s 18th century conquest of the region. They are the people who descended from the Mongols’s Golden Horde; the original people these would be the people that could claim to be natives in Crimea.

The name “Crimea” takes its origin in the name of the city of Qırım (today called Stary Krym) which served as a capital of the Crimean province of the Golden Horde. The ancient Greeks called Crimea Tauris (later Taurica), after its inhabitants, the Tauri.

Taurica was eventually renamed by the Crimean Tatars, Golden Orde, from whose language the Crimea’s modern name derives. The word “Crimea” comes from the Crimean Tatar name Qırım via Golden Orde Mongolia Kherem, Kerm (Wall or Fortress) or via Greek Krimeía (Κριμαία).

More information on them is here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde

Stalin sent them to Siberia after WWII and they are just now coming back (or were anyway.)
 
I was unclear, my fault.

I want to know if anyone in Crimea today has a, sense of Crimean nationalism independent from Ukraine and Russia. Of course the history of the ethnic population is mixed, varied, if you will.

Is there not a substantial piece of culture that Crimeans can claim and call upon? Is there even such thing as a “true” Crimean who, although, born on Ukrainian soil, isn’t an ethnic Russian or Muslim?
.
If a country doesn’t have a collective national identity and doesn’t want to create one (like the North American countries did), then no wonder no one is fussing for independence in the referendum.

If, however, there IS a sense of national identity and independence hasn’t been offered, then that is an injustice.
I don’t know, it’s all so complicated with conflicting information about the region. I doubt they were too pleased at being thrown out, in 1954, and have asked for autonomous agreements with Ukraine, which as far as I am aware have been in place. As i said in another post, this whole scenario, of Russia in Crimea could be a joint decision so if the referendum votes yes - it gives R and C a stronger negotiating hand to get what they want. Crimea independence (with Russian access to fleet), and Ukraine - I don’t know but they’ll get some crumbs. We won’t know til it’s all over. The speed of getting the referendum in place, is a bit strange and hence could be being used as a deal-breaker with the new Ukrainian government. (But I am guessing now).
 
Here’s a humanitarian Candaian organisation’s view on the Ukraine government:

globalresearch.ca/whos-who-in-ukraines-new-semi-fascist-government-meet-the-people-the-u-s-and-eu-are-supporting/5372422

*The U.S. and European Union countries played a key role in the overthrow of the elected government in the Ukraine headed by Victor Yanukovych and the Party of Regions. Listening to the politicians in Washington or watching the corporate media, it would be easy to believe that the coup in the Ukraine has ushered in new era of democracy for the people of that country.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The new, self-appointed government in Kiev is a coalition between right-wing and outright fascist forces, and the line between the two is often difficult to discern. Moreover, it is the fascist forces, particularly the Svoboda party and the Right Sector, who are in the ascendancy, as evidenced by the fact that they have been given key government positions in charge of the military and other core elements of the state apparatus.

A few weeks before the Feb. 24 coup, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland, then in Kiev to support the anti-government protests, was recorded calling for Yatsenyuk to become the new leader. Yatsenyuk is a banker, very Western-oriented, and seen as sure to accede to the demands of the International Monetary Fund and the international banks for austerity measures in exchange for a “bailout” of the Ukraine’s debt.

n 2005, Tyahnybok signed an open letter to Ukraine leaders denouncing the “criminal activities” of “organized Jewry” who, he claimed, wanted to commit “genocide” against Ukrainian people.

Support for the fascists is surging in the Ukraine. In 2006, Svoboda received .36 of 1 percent in the elections; in 2012 it became the fourth largest party in the Rada (parliament) with 10.45 percent of the vote and 37 seats out of 450. In a public opinion poll taken at the beginning of February, 54 percent said they would vote for Tyahnybok for president if he ran against Yanukovych. (The poll was held three weeks before the overthrow of Yanukovych.)

The smiling faces of Victoria Nuland and Sen. John McCain, among other U.S. officials, have appeared in countless photos with Tyahnybok in recent months.*
Hmmm… John McCain did seem to have some involvement in Ukrainian EU talks, before Ukraine withdrew itself from aligning with the EU. There does seem to be some possibility of a Western banking conspiracy.
businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

…so the globalists, such as McCain, are involved then. :o
 
Victoria Nuland is also involved… :o

She is known for her involvement in the Benghazi coverup, and her husband is a member of the Think Tank: Project for the New American Century -a think tank engaged in American global dominance.
 
Ukraine sends out lone Paralympian during opening ceremony

Ukrainian Paralympian Mykhaylo Tkachenko rolled into Sochi’s Fisht Olympic Stadium Friday night.

He was alone, his fellow countrymen – Ukraine sent 23 athletes to the Sochi Paralympics – weren’t behind him.

If they were at the venue, they never emerged from the tunnel.

slam.canoe.ca/Slam/OtherSports/2014/03/07/21519516.html
Russian Paralympic team marches in Sochi to anti-American song

What I find difficult to understand is why it is so difficult to find other online news stories about this.
 
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