UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

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Ridgerunner said:
The “Catholic approach” is to forgive those who trespass against us…
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And it’s a noble thing. But:
  1. IMHO, it can’t possibly work in the real world on a mass scale. The result would be total lawlessness- and tyranny.
  2. It never has worked- or even been implemented on a mass scale; not by the Catholic Church, not by Catholic rulers, and not by non-Catholic churches or non-Catholic rulers.
  3. Especially in light of that, to demand it of Israel (and I haven’t seen JustaServant on other threads demanding the same of other countries) is odd; to say the least.
 
YKohen said:
  1. Especially in light of that, to demand it of Israel (and I haven’t seen JustaServant on other threads demanding the same of other countries) is odd; to say the least.
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Not sure how you got that out of my post.
You said:
Again,** the Church itself has never ever practiced what you claim**.
Ever.
Not in war and not in policy.
Not the Pope and not Catholic rulers.
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Back up that claim. With documentation please.
 
JustaServant said:
I was wondering how long it would take for this to come out.
:cool:
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There’s nothing to wonder. You’re demanding something of us that you yourselves don’t, and never did, hold to as a matter of policy.

Because it doesn’t work like that.

The Vatican has a police force for a reason, and also a a supreme court, an appeals court, a tribunal (Tribunal of Vatican City State), and a trial judge.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_of_Gendarmerie_of_Vatican_City

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_Vatican_City#Judicial_branch_of_the_government_of_Vatican_City
 
YKohen said:
There’s nothing to wonder. You’re demanding something of us that you yourselves don’t, and never did, hold to as a matter of policy.

Because it doesn’t work like that.

The Vatican has a police force for a reason, and also a a supreme court, an appeals court, a tribunal (Tribunal of Vatican City State), and a trial judge.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corps_of_Gendarmerie_of_Vatican_City

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_Vatican_City#Judicial_branch_of_the_government_of_Vatican_City
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So the Catholic Church has never practiced forgivness?
 
JustaServant said:
Not sure how you got that out of my post.
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I don’t see you on threads about other countries arguing constantly like here. Must be a coincidence.
Back up that claim. With documentation please.
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I did give examples earlier- which you ignored.

But if you can give examples where the Church, as a matter of policy, did forgive what it saw as existential threats against it or the like, I would be most greatful. I’m always open to learning new things.
 
JustaServant said:
Someone else post this? No, you did.
All I am asking for is for you to back up the claim.
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I posted it, and clearly you didn’t understand it. The Church HAS gone to war before- and not just defensive wars. When it saw what it considered an existential threat- even in cases that were not violent, it didn’t forgive. In fact, there were times when it even used torture to elicit “repentance” from those who were accused of doing wrong.

This was official Church policy- from the top down.

Can you cite examples of forgiveness w/o repentance on a Church vs. other (meaning country, etc.) level where the other is considered an enemy- and one that still poses a threat?

I’m going to bed now. I hope that by tomorrow you will be able to find me some examples.
 
YKohen said:
This was official Church policy- from the top down.
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Okay, last time.
The above quote is what I am asking you to document.
Note the bolded underlined words.

Also, Jesus made the forgiveness of our sins contingent on our willingness to forgive others. (Matthew 6:14-15)
 
YKohen said:
And it’s a noble thing. But:
  1. IMHO, it can’t possibly work in the real world on a mass scale. The result would be total lawlessness- and tyranny.
  2. It never has worked- or even been implemented on a mass scale; not by the Catholic Church, not by Catholic rulers, and not by non-Catholic churches or non-Catholic rulers.
  3. Especially in light of that, to demand it of Israel (and I haven’t seen JustaServant on other threads demanding the same of other countries) is odd; to say the least.
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Let me respectfully disagree.

One might forgive one’s enemies, but one is not obliged therefore to fail/refuse to acknowledge the wrongfulness of the enemy’s action or to defend against it.

So, paradoxical as it might seem to one who was not brought up in the Catholic moral tradition, Catholic troops in all wars are encouraged by their chaplains to forgive their enemies yet to resist their aggressions and wrongs all the same. “Forgiveness” does not mean pacifism in that context. And you are quite correct in believing that Popes had troops at various times and engaged in war. The last time, of course, what in the 19th Century when volunteer “Papal Zouaves” from all over the world briefly resisted the army of Garibaldi. If something threatened Vatican City today, I don’t know if the Pope would call for defenders beyond the household guards, but I can assure you that many Catholics would go there to defend the mini-state and him. I’m getting on in age, but I would nevertheless do it in a heartbeat and without being morally conflicted about doing it.

I do not demand forgiveness of anyone by anyone other than myself. As a Catholic, I cannot do that, although I can reasonably hope that others will exercise that or any other virtue. I can only “demand” forgiveness of others from myself. It is an internal command, not an external one.

As a Catholic, I can morally lay down my life before my enemy. I think Jews are morally allowed to do the same. What I cannot do, morally, is lay down the life of another, and I’m reasonably sure Jews would agree with that.

Therefore, as I understand the world, particularly that of the Middle East, it would be immoral on my part to act in any manner that would endanger Israelis in the face of those enemies that intend them harm. Similarly, it would be immoral on my part to act in such a way as to endanger Palestinian Arabs as against whatever aggressors might face them.

But as I have followed the conflict for years, researched it and communicated both with Jews and with Palestinian Arabs, I do not believe Israel to be the aggressor in this situation. And I have likewise come to believe that the real enemies of the Palestinian Arabs are some (but not all) other Arab and Iranian leaders and clerics, and the various organizations that encourage hostility toward Israel in particular and toward Jews in general. It’s a sickness they have spread among their own.
 
Forgiveness without calls to repentance on a national level is essentially immoral and renders justice meaningless.
Love for one’s enemy desires that they repent for the sake of their own soul as much as for the sake or your own life at their hands.

God forgave Nineveh because they listened to his prophet and they repented. Otherwise, without repentance, the time had come when it was necessary to destroy them. A world or unrepentant Assyrians would have meant a world destroyed by the Assyrians.
Being kind to the cruel by sparing them justice means that you are enabling them to continue in their cruelty and continue destroying a lot of good people and innocent lives.
That is immoral, and such false forgiveness in fact put us in collusion with the sinners and the evil that we enable.

God forgives us as we forgive others to be sure. That is to say that even his forgiveness is contingent on our own behavior.
On a personal level, turning the other cheek is possible. On a national level, turning the other cheek is in effect offering the cheeks of those that we have authority over. The role of the shephard is never to offer his sheep to the wolves, but to protect them from the wolves, even at the price of his own life.
If we have been put in a position of authority, as the church has, it would be immoral for us to sacrifice our flocks rather than provide them the protection that we have been commissioned to give them.
 
YKohen said:
And it’s a noble thing. But:
  1. IMHO, it can’t possibly work in the real world on a mass scale. The result would be total lawlessness- and tyranny.
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Well, that would be considered a “slippery slope argument”. Please remember, I am not demanding you to forgive.

What I would like to do, at this point, if you don’t mind, is to see if the slippery slope is a real possibility. To do so, please, respond to my scenario, and let us see if such lawlessness and tyranny occur. Ridgerunner made some very good points about what forgiveness is and what it isn’t.

We know that constantly hitting heads doesn’t work. Why don’t we play this one out?
Let me be a Palestinian for a moment. YKohen, your people have taken my land and have killed my children. I know you think I have deserved this. I forgive you. I understand your position, and I will no longer hold it against you. You see this land as yours, and you fear us and despise us, especially when we react violently. I am just as capable of wanting your land and despising you, and in fact I am guilty of these things too. I have in the past continued to want to continue punishing you for what you have done to me, but I no longer want to do so. I am forgiving you even though you have not repented from taking our land, restricting our freedom, and killing us. I am doing so because this is the reconciliation and peace that my soul wants.
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What is your response to this rare and “unrealistic” Palestinian?
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I have read that scenario again, and I noticed that I as the Palestinian have assumed that Israelis have despised us. I think this is a reasonable assumption, but please forgive me if that assumption was over-stepping. I, as the Palestinian, had despised Israelis, and I projected the same upon my enemy.
 
It has always been known that these settlements violate the Geneva Conventions. The “Palestinians” are equally culpable for their actions. Nothing new here.
 
Dear all,

Upon reading some of the reply’s from this forum, I felt it my obligation to sign up an provide a voice. Last year I volunteered with catholic organisations, Palestine Pilgrimage, Cambridge Nazareth trust (CNT), and was supported by my local parish and the local catholic schools to go to the west bank to teach English to Palestinian children of different faiths. My friend and I were assigned a summer camp in a placed called Beit Jala, just outside of Bethlehem. We were sleeping in a seminary, and our weekdays comprised of simply waking up, going to the summer camp, and either playing games or actually teaching English. At the weekends we travelled to different parts of the country to some of the Holy shires, to Jerusalem, to Ramallah (Interim capital if you didn’t know) and other places. Aside from the many friends I made while over there, I also saw the issues that plague the Palestinian People. We saw the Wall, Large and imposing, the security with their big guns (I’m English, so I hadn’t seen a security officer carrying guns as liberally as they were). I listened to the stories from the people, a priest named Fr Firas told of the many injustices of the Israeli government, and friend who showed me many pictures of Bullets being shot into her former home before being demolished. Traveling was a nightmare to be honest, took us nearly 2 hours to get from Ramallah to Beit Jala. But ever with all of this things standing in the way of the Palestinians we were treated very well by both Christians and Muslims in the West Bank, and the only time a level of frustration surfaced it was directed at the situation and the leaders of Israel not the people. I thoroughly love my Christian Brothers and Sisters in the West Bank, I have personal relationships with them and although I did not have such a relationship with an Israeli people, I Love them too. However there is an injustice going on, the nation of Israel is fundamentally not innocent of the crimes they have committed, and historically speaking they were the aggressors allowed by the Uk in 1947/8. The settlements are a mixture of military outposts and colonial structures which serve to cut the land up, inhibiting free travel for Palestinians, which is a very important issue, but also the are islands. There was not a single Israeli in the West bank other than those behind the fortifications/in settlements on hills. I beg all Catholics, in accordance with catholic teaching and catholic obligation to try an understand that Palestinians are not terrorists, they are an occupied people, Palestinians are not all Muslim, they are of many faiths, Palestinians do not hate the Jewish, they fundamentally want peace and it is the Israeli government who are blocking dialogue.

The two greatest victims of the Israeli government are Palestinians who are being killed and forced from their land, and the normal Israeli who is being consistently psychologically tortured by the fear mongering of the Regime.

So with those things in mind I find I highly offensive that one feels justified in supporting the Israeli government and its Illegal settlements when both are harming all the people who currently live in the holy land.

God Love You,

Daniel Rooke
 
Hello,

My last post was terribly written, I’m very sorry.

I used the word regime to equate the Government in Israel to like places. Full of misinformation and propaganda that leave the foreigner like me confused, leading us to simply conform to the national directive. E.g. in England, Syria, Iran, Belarus, North Korea, and Venezuela, are regimes. But why? I have a good friend in Iran and listening to them I don’t hear them talk of war. What do I really know about Belarus, nothing at all? How can anyone judge a place like North Korea when it’s so difficult to access it? Et cetera.

so I say, what do I KNOW about the israeli government for certain? Well it took land, they authorised the deaths of countless defenceless people, they built a wall, they disallow their OWN citizens to move freely in the west bank, and so on. AND Benjamin Netanyahu consistently bangs the drums of war.

What do I KNOW about Palestine, well I know that there are some very angry groups who want to resist with rockets, there are MANY more groups who resist peacefully. I know some of the people and they are very pleasant. I’ve even meet the PM of Palestine, I shook his hand. I haven’t heard of any unreasonable demands from President Abbas.

Yes, when at war both sides have their evils. But who is stamping on whom in this situation?

We can talk all we like about history but it really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if Israel maybe be entitled to the land, nor do the past transgressions against Palestine, because if Israel stops what it is currently doing, then peace will most certainly be the result. They have the power here and are simply ignoring the morality they claim to be the foundation of their country, which is why I can say Regime.

Dan
 
danrooke said:
Hello,

My last post was terribly written, I’m very sorry.

I used the word regime to equate the Government in Israel to like places. Full of misinformation and propaganda that leave the foreigner like me confused, leading us to simply conform to the national directive. E.g. in England, Syria, Iran, Belarus, North Korea, and Venezuela, are regimes. But why? I have a good friend in Iran and listening to them I don’t hear them talk of war. What do I really know about Belarus, nothing at all? How can anyone judge a place like North Korea when it’s so difficult to access it? Et cetera.

so I say, what do I KNOW about the israeli government for certain? Well it took land, they authorised the deaths of countless defenceless people, they built a wall, they disallow their OWN citizens to move freely in the west bank, and so on. AND Benjamin Netanyahu consistently bangs the drums of war.

What do I KNOW about Palestine, well I know that there are some very angry groups who want to resist with rockets, there are MANY more groups who resist peacefully. I know some of the people and they are very pleasant. I’ve even meet the PM of Palestine, I shook his hand. I haven’t heard of any unreasonable demands from President Abbas.

Yes, when at war both sides have their evils. But who is stamping on whom in this situation?

We can talk all we like about history but it really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if Israel maybe be entitled to the land, nor do the past transgressions against Palestine, because if Israel stops what it is currently doing, then peace will most certainly be the result. They have the power here and are simply ignoring the morality they claim to be the foundation of their country, which is why I can say Regime.

Dan
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Dan, thank you so much for your first-hand, valuable (name removed by moderator)ut. I would love to have the opportunity to experience what you have.

What I have tried to point out in this thread is that there is injustice being experienced by both sides. I politely disagree when someone suggests that “If those guys would stop doing that, then all the problems would stop”. With this suggestion, the discussion goes back into a finger-pointing game and goes nowhere.

It is so incredibly ironic that this occupation, so central to world politics now, takes place in the same land where our own Lord became incarnate and addressed a Jewish people occupied by a foreign power.

Did you find yourself at times feeling very negatively toward the Israeli government, and then taking the time to forgive? How did it go with you, in this sense, while living this experience?
 
Hello OneSheep,

If I’m honest I did find myself feeling very hostile to the Israeli side; upon arrival we were treated with suspicion and had to wait at the airport for about 2 hours while they held our volunteer “leader” for questioning. I know that is protocol for them, but it tarnished our view, it made us feel unwelcome. When we arrived in Jifna, in the west bank we were meet with such hospitality, had a meal, met some of the locals; best way to put it in to words, it was like coming home, very strange. Not a great comparison.

Over the weeks we were there, as we were learning more, it was far from our minds to forgive as we were witnessing for the first time. But towards the end we realised on an intellectual level, and I suppose by the grace of God, that it was not the people where our demand for justice lay, it was the ones who were in charge at fault.

I understand you point and your right, the argument does seem to come down to finger pointing, I know I have blatantly done that. I suppose that is a response to those who say “if only the Palestinians would forgive”. It really doesn’t matter to anyone what Palestine does in this situation, even if now they have an internationally recognised state and settlements are illegal, saying that Palestine has any power over what happens in the conflict is a fallacy. I don’t think that’s finger pointing, you may disagree i think.

I think, especially as it’s the Holy Land, every catholic should visit. While I was there, that is the areas of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Ramallah and Jericho, there was no trouble. It’s actually quite safe. Volunteering is a good way to go, but there are many catholic pilgrimage organisations if you’re so inclined. I think by seeing the settlements, the wall, checkpoints, you’ll understand why this is such a global issue and why we as Catholics we should need it at peace.

Sorry I wrote too much.

Dan.
 
danrooke said:
Over the weeks we were there, as we were learning more, it was far from our minds to forgive as we were witnessing for the first time. But towards the end we realised on an intellectual level, and I suppose by the grace of God, that it was not the people where our demand for justice lay, it was the ones who were in charge at fault.
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So, how does one go about forgiving the ones in charge? These are some of the insights we people from afar can gain from.
I understand you point and your right, the argument does seem to come down to finger pointing, I know I have blatantly done that. I suppose that is a response to those who say “if only the Palestinians would forgive”. It really doesn’t matter to anyone what Palestine does in this situation, even if now they have an internationally recognised state and settlements are illegal, saying that Palestine has any power over what happens in the conflict is a fallacy. I don’t think that’s finger pointing, you may disagree i think.
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Yes, it would be a rather one-sided thing if the call was for only the Palestinians to forgive. It would be great if both sides were to forgive. The question is, does the side with the more “peaceful” faith do it first, or do both work toward the goal at the same time? The call is “If you want peace, work for justice”. This needs a backup call: “If you want justice, first forgive.”

The Israeli and largely American view is that Israel has a very powerful enemy backing the Palestinians. Many, if not most, Americans see Israel as the underdog. So, yes, awareness is a big issue. But knowing who is in power does not in itself lead to forgiveness.

All of us have done our share of finger-pointing. You are not alone in this.
I think, especially as it’s the Holy Land, every catholic should visit. While I was there, that is the areas of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Ramallah and Jericho, there was no trouble. It’s actually quite safe. Volunteering is a good way to go, but there are many catholic pilgrimage organisations if you’re so inclined. I think by seeing the settlements, the wall, checkpoints, you’ll understand why this is such a global issue and why we as Catholics we should need it at peace.
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Sorry I wrote too much.
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Dan.
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Someday, I hope I can visit the land when reconciliation is achieved… Feel free to “write too much”, I do plenty myself.
 
OneSheep,

Put it this way, how would I forgive a man attacking my brother? It is difficult, why? Because a grave injustice has been done. But I know I should forgive, so I do forgive. This is very much the attitude I found in Palestine, a country fed up of war, just wanting to be free. It is not I who first forgave the Israeli Gov., it was Palestine. The anger you hear from them is not of racism, or xenophobia, or religion, it is a deep sadness at the loss of home and stability. They are willing to fight to tell Israel that they want peace, even if their voice is never properly heard. They forgive so that they have hope in a future, and I forgive.

Your right Justice, Peace and Forgiveness can all be interchangeable in war time. But I don’t understand what you mean by the more peaceful faith. To my mind there are many fundamentalist Christian/Muslim/Jewish groups in world who hold views of chaos, yet all three are mostly filled with people of peaceful faith. Hence this conclusion, who in this conflict is benefitting? Not the Christian, Not the Muslim, Not the Jew, not either nation. But why does it happen? Why start a war that hurts every one of every faith? There I think evil exists in the minds of the instigator, and the one who is in control of continuing the war. What more can be said? Peace means mutual forgiveness, Fair compromise and the justice of God. I’m not entirely sure, but I think someone said on this forum, they are both to blame; this is not right, the blame rests with the father of the aggression, each one who is left is a victim.

I would be careful in accusing Iran like some evil superpower, firstly is power is vastly over estimated, and secondly the view from the Arabs is that Palestine has a very powerful nuclear enemy with even more powerful nuclear Allies, USA, EU, etc. They are just as worried about the situation. Palestine is seen as being eaten up by the west, along with the rest of the Middle East and North-Africa. There have been talks even of re-building the temple which will mean the destruction of one of the most holy shires in Islam.

Caution should be given whenever we give a negative attachment to a name, It means we either don’t know about them enough to trust or we are not forgiving and loving them. “Love Thy Neighbour”.

So why condemn the Israeli government? Well, why condemn Stalin? He caused so much destruction that he needed to be stopped from doing more, that is how many see the actions of the Israeli state, a country that has crossed the line too many times. And the settlements are this idea manifest, building on land that does not belong to them.

I think I may have changed my argument? If I have it’s because I agree that no one should be made to blame yet we can still say that Stalin was a terrible man, do you see?

I’m hoping to go against this year! Please correct me,

Dan
 
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