UN staff killed in Afghan protest over Quran burning in US

[mdrummer5]

I am not in the habit of restraining the exercise of my God given liberty because SOMEONE I don’t know MIGHT do something bad.

What he did was not an exercise of God. They didn’t kill someone because someone dipped their finger in holy water and did the sign of the cross or because they genuflected before being seated at mass. They did it because someone burned their bible. We’d get angry too. Would we kill over it… of course not… but that’s hardly the point. There are two points to consider.

1. He knew it would make extremist groups angry.
2. Extremist groups are called that because of how they respond to such things… with violence.

He did it anyway with reason enough to know that something like this could and probably would happen.

I do not of course agree with how they responded at all. I do not think it is reasonable or logical and I feel sorry for them and for the peaceful muslims who now are likely worried about how they will be viewed in the US.

BUT I am not at all surprised by the action as I’m sure nobody else is including Terry Jones. On the contrary my thoughts when I first saw this thread are more “who didn’t see THAT coming?”

 

[LemonAndLime]

Maybe you can find the peaceful Islamic people in this?

Warning, finding Waldo is easier!

youtube.com/watch?v=XJpgYRbFp6w

Can you find the peaceful Christians in this?

youtube.com/watch?v=xKo1PuZWmd8

Or this?

youtube.com/watch?v=llZDzVtrOdw&feature=related

What a terrible, unfair and biased question you asked. So you really do think that there are no peaceful Islamic people in the world. You are presenting a very ugly face of prejudice here and you are not showing a good example.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Accountable, yes. Legally accused, no. I do not think Jones should ever be charged with the murders, but I believe he does have responsibility for what happened as he was the primary cause, you could say.

In the UK he would not be punished for causing the riots in Afghanistan. He would be punished for inciting/committing racial/religious hatred by burning a holy book with the intent of insulting Islam. Some people actually did do this in the UK -

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8020296/Six-arrested-in-Gateshead-over-Koran-burning.html

Not sure if they were ever charged, but it was certainly enough to arrest them.

I don’t claim to know international law and am serious in asking, can the pastor be charged with inciting a riot? Just wondering…

 

[estesbob]

Accountable, yes. Legally accused, no. I do not think Jones should ever be charged with the murders, but I believe he does have responsibility for what happened as he was the primary cause, you could say.

In the UK he would not be punished for causing the riots in Afghanistan. He would be punished for inciting/committing racial/religious hatred by burning a holy book with the intent of insulting Islam. Some people actually did do this in the UK -

telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8020296/Six-arrested-in-Gateshead-over-Koran-burning.html

Not sure if they were ever charged, but it was certainly enough to arrest them.

Prime example of how Muslim extremists bullied a government into infringing on the rights of its people. It is because of nonsense like this that we broke away from Britain in 1776.

 

[iamrefreshed]

You’re right, absolutely every person of the Islamic faith was in that video…

Do you not remember how the people, or everyday folk, were treated prior to the US involvement in Afghanistan? I expect they were hiding.

Not every Islamic person, just every one in that village.

This was not some fringe group. The vast majority supported the violence.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prime example of how Muslim extremists bullied a government into infringing on the rights of its people. It is because of nonsense like this that we broke away from Britain in 1776.

There are hate laws in the US. Do you believe they infringe on the rights of the people?

 

[Santi2]

Not sure if they were ever charged, but it was certainly enough to arrest them.

The CPS ddid not prosecute due to insufficient evidence.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-12253315

 

[Darryl1958]

You said he should be held accountable for the protests (riots). I can only assume you meant earthly since we can never know what God knows.

In the UK, could he be charged even though everything happened in Afghanistan?

UK doesn’t have freedom of speech though, so it is not really appplicable to America, which still does.

 

[jilly4ski]

I don’t claim to know international law and am serious in asking, can the pastor be charged with inciting a riot? Just wondering…

No, because he did not incite a riot. From Merriam/Webster online: : to move to action : stir up : spur on : urge on.
The religious and political leaders in Afghanistan incited a riot. He Burned a book, a holy book to Muslims. The only way he could be charged with inciting a riot is if people from his religious group (or maybe people who watched his video online) started a riot against Muslims. His action was a provocation but not an incitement. Here is the difference between provocation and incitement.

Provocation: You are at a bar and start yelling at the guy next to you, telling him he is stupid and an idiot, he then takes a swing at you.

Incitement: You are at a bar and start yelling at the guy next to you, telling him he is stupid and an idiot and should be beaten. Then your buddies come up and beat the man.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No, because he did not incite a riot. From Merriam/Webster online: : to move to action : stir up : spur on : urge on.
The religious and political leaders in Afghanistan incited a riot. He Burned a book, a holy book to Muslims. The only way he could be charged with inciting a riot is if people from his religious group (or maybe people who watched his video online) started a riot against Muslims. His action was a provocation but not an incitement. Here is the difference between provocation and incitement.

Provocation: You are at a bar and start yelling at the guy next to you, telling him he is stupid and an idiot, he then takes a swing at you.

Incitement: You are at a bar and start yelling at the guy next to you, telling him he is stupid and an idiot and should be beaten. Then your buddies come up and beat the man.

From the definition you provided, it seems an argument could be made that he stirred up those people by burning something sacred to them. I’ll leave it to the lawyers though. I can only view it spiritually and find no redeeming value to his actions, of course it’s not for me to judge…

 

[st_julie]

“The Muslim community in the United States has declined to respond to such an act by Jones and his small group of followers.”

Do they ever respond to condem the murderous actions of the so called “offended”.?I don’t think so!

 

[Darryl1958]

…Would we kill over it… of course not… but that’s hardly the point. There are two points to consider.

1. He knew it would make extremist groups angry.
2. Extremist groups are called that because of how they respond to such things… with violence.

He did it anyway with reason enough to know that something like this could and probably would happen.

I do not of course agree with how they responded at all. I do not think it is reasonable or logical and I feel sorry for them and for the peaceful muslims who now are likely worried about how they will be viewed in the US.

BUT I am not at all surprised by the action as I’m sure nobody else is including Terry Jones. On the contrary my thoughts when I first saw this thread are more “who didn’t see THAT coming?”

Any criticism of Islam and the Koran in general, even reasonable criticism is likely to very likely to result in violence, as Hirsi Ali and Van Gogh know only too well.

Any Muslim who dares to engage in any higher Koranic criticism too does so under threat of violence. The state of Egypt will even divorce them from their Muslim wives.

Reasonable people as a result curtail what they are actually think of the Koran and Islam, so as to not provoke the crazies. Reasonable Muslims keep their mouths shut as to where they disagree with the radicalm, so as to not be beheaded as infidels. Reasonable countries such as Britian change their laws so as to make any criticism of Islam hate speech.

Now that all reasonable speech has been gagged, only the unreasonable are heard, when it comes to speaking the truth about Islam.

 

[Santi2]

UK doesn’t have freedom of speech though, so it is not really appplicable to America, which still does.

Freedom of speech was not tethered at the protest march against the Holy Father last year nor was it tethered on Armistice Day. The difference between our laws on free speech is that we cannot use it to incite public disorder.

 

[Raskolnikov]

“The Muslim community in the United States has declined to respond to such an act by Jones and his small group of followers.”

Do they ever respond to condem the murderous actions of the so called “offended”.?I don’t think so!

Who exactly was this that reponded on behalf of the entire Muslim community?

iamrefreshed:

This was not some fringe group. The vast majority supported the violence.

The vast majority of Muslims support violence? I don’t pretend Muslim groups have been particularly courageous in standing up the extremists, but you really thnk Muslims are by and large supporters of violence? I’m curious, do you know any Muslims?

 

[estesbob]

There are hate laws in the US. Do you believe they infringe on the rights of the people?

There are not hate laws in the US. I can say as many hateful things as i want and burn many Korans or bibles as I want. I think which you are referring to, however, is hate crimes legislation. which impose a greater penalty for a crime if they can prove that it was motivated by "hate. I personally do find these laws as infringing on our freedoms as they are applied subjectively and in my opinion all crimes are hate crimes . But again these are not hate laws as we see in other countries.

Let me give an example. I assault someone in a bar. I’m guilty of assault and battery and am laible for the maximum penalties the law prescribes for this crime. However if they can prove that I asted the because of their race, creed, gender or country of national origin under hate crimes legislation I can receive a stiffer penalty.

 

[mdrummer5]

“The Muslim community in the United States has declined to respond to such an act by Jones and his small group of followers.”

Do they ever respond to condem the murderous actions of the so called “offended”.?I don’t think so!

Maybe because despite horribly popular opinion the extremists do not represent all muslims or even a majority of them so they choose not to respond because they do not want to be associated with those types of followers.

Now that all reasonable speech has been gagged, only the unreasonable are heard, when it comes to speaking the truth about Islam.

All the more reason burning the book wasn’t necessary. It’s one thing to disagree with someone’s views… it’s an entirely different thing to insult them. There’s no reason he couldn’t make his statements in a much more civil manner.

 

[lynx]

Can people really not see the bigotry in this pastor’s words and actions?

---

CAF person:

I still see that you try to make arguments based on moral (EDIT: Christian) theology. My point is that you do not have credibility with these arguments because you do not believe in God.

CAF person:

Personally I think getting involved in a discussion with an atheist about what constitutes a sin is a useless exercise.

---

We are our brother’s keeper…this “pastor” has blood on his hands…

CAF person:

The pope’s speech was an honest opinion and a good reading of history oft Islam that nevertheless resulted at least one death and all kinds of mayhem and riots. It was not irresponsible of him though

crosswalk.com/news/religion-today/pope-apologizes-for-speech-offending-muslims-1426045.html
CAF member:

Maybe you can convince your brothers that beheading someone not even remotely connected to the pastor is a bad idea?

---

Oxford definition of bigotry: bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

@Prodigal Son1 - Some people will never understand that what the pastor said was bigoted because it conforms to what they believe, their opinion. Racial stereotypes and Christian-religious-centrism win out over the demonized, as such, cultural-intolerance is developed and fostered. Why shouldn’t it when there are so few positive displays of the middle east in western culture? I’m not sure how to fix it. It’s difficult to talk to someone who has already judged you and the extent that you know. My only thought would be to counter such hate with their own beliefs, and hopefully cause an epiphany from within. Luckily, the words of Jesus are powerful enough, that hopefully, only peace and tolerance for one another can be found in them. As such I leave a few quotes, already in this thread:

You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? (Matthew 5:43-47 )

Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)

“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”
Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:36-40)

For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:16-17)

The pastor, and murders are sinners. Each answers for the sins they commit. I would argue if you know that your sin can lead to the deaths of innocents that it is not venial. Such is the danger of knowledge and the weight of responsibility of that knowledge as a Christian figure.

 

[iamrefreshed]

The vast majority of Muslims support violence? I don’t pretend Muslim groups have been particularly courageous in standing up the extremists, but you really thnk Muslims are by and large supporters of violence? I’m curious, do you know any Muslims?

Yes, the vast majority of this “peaceful village” supported this violence.

Even the leader of Afghanistan incited his own people.

youtube.com/watch?v=XJpgYRbFp6w

 

[SamH]

From the definition you provided, it seems an argument could be made that he stirred up those people by burning something sacred to them. I’ll leave it to the lawyers though. I can only view it spiritually and find no redeeming value to his actions, of course it’s not for me to judge…

Just like how the Freedom Riders of the 1960s should have been arrested and tossed in jail for stirring up trouble.

 

[mdrummer5]

The pastor, and murders are sinners. Each answers for the sins they commit. I would argue if you know that your sin can lead to the deaths of innocents that it is not venial. Such is the danger of knowledge and the weight of responsibility of that knowledge as a Christian figure.

You SURE you’re an Atheist?