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fhansen
Guest
As you should be. But that still sort of begs the basic question, no?
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you. Recognizing the two separate questions will make discussion a lot easier.
I do keep thinking about the poster who said that he loved his wife unconditionally. I wonder if he has a brother.
Seriously, I would not dispute the word “unconditionally” used by OneSheep, post 205, in the example of loving his wife. The reason is that both husband and wife are humans. While marriage is a true union, it is not exactly like the union between Divinity and humanity. God’s unconditional love, meaning that the material world cannot restrict or limit this love, results in eternal life when we freely choose to maintain our state of Sanctifying Grace. While we say we will love our spouse forever and ever, it is not the same as sharing in the Divine life of an eternal God.
On the other hand, it is most valuable to see the Sacrament of Matrimony as an earthly example of God’s Divine love.
“Scottish Folds reflect a part of God’s love and pass that love along to us if we are blessed enough to see God’s reflection in a simple cat.” from a post by Little Soldier
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clem456
Guest
Human beings sin and endure separation from love.
God does not sin, God is love. God is, in himself, of his own unalterable nature, a community of love. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarian love. God does not need anything regarding man to BE love.
Without God’s love, human beings can do nothing. We cannot love without God’s love. God’s love is the image and source of the love we should have for him and one another.
We fail at this. God does not ever fail in love.
The teaching of the Church exalts the primacy of God’s love, as the unalterable source of all things. Reading the catechism section on salvation and grace makes this very clear.
If God loved as we do, we would all suffer eternal death.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
If anyone has any idea, even if not any knowledge of, just how horrible hell is and that God knowingly, since God Is Omniscient, created anyone to be in utter torment for ever and ever and ever and…, even tho they, themself, created their hell and put themself there and that God did NOT come up with some kind of Plan, even before creation, so that this would not be than I can not understand or even fathom how they can say how wonderful God Is.
Even tho the God that I met does not even come close to being a Being such as this, if He were, I would hope and pray and beg and beseech God to completely and utterly destroy me and to unexist me.
Some have brought up “presumption” on here and have said that we should not “presume” anything about God and yet they then presume that God can NOT have a Plan that has “Mercy on us all”, even tho as far as I know it is a prayer at every Mass in the vernacular and probably those that are not in the vernacular, even to “hope” that God’s Mercy exceeds ours.
I have also met satan and I can tell you for a “fact” that satan is, to put it mildly, quite upset and it seems to me that some people’s “conception” of God more resembles satan than God.
May GOD have MERCY on us ALL, even tho it seems as if some believe and/or want nothing of the kind.
Even tho the God that I met does not even come close to being a Being such as this, if He were, I would hope and pray and beg and beseech God to completely and utterly destroy me and to unexist me.
Some have brought up “presumption” on here and have said that we should not “presume” anything about God and yet they then presume that God can NOT have a Plan that has “Mercy on us all”, even tho as far as I know it is a prayer at every Mass in the vernacular and probably those that are not in the vernacular, even to “hope” that God’s Mercy exceeds ours.
I have also met satan and I can tell you for a “fact” that satan is, to put it mildly, quite upset and it seems to me that some people’s “conception” of God more resembles satan than God.
May GOD have MERCY on us ALL, even tho it seems as if some believe and/or want nothing of the kind.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
As far as “One serious concern is the human tendency to ignore the complete results of Mortal Sin by implying that God’s love ignores those same complete results”, could be that God did NOT ignore at all but in God’s Wisdom came up with a Plan, even before creation, to deal with this in becoming One of us.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, you can presume to know the reasons why people believe it, but it’s really just the teaching of the Church:
**1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
**
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Tom_Baum
Guest
grannymh
You wrote, “I am concerned about the various misinterpretations of God’s love.”
You have a misinterpretation of “God’s love” just by calling it “God’s love” since God Is a Being of Love and this “fact” is beyond any human’s ability to “conceive”.
Either God “cares” for ALL of God’s creation or God doesn’t, personally, I believe that God cares for ALL of God’s creation.
You wrote, “I am concerned about the various misinterpretations of God’s love.”
You have a misinterpretation of “God’s love” just by calling it “God’s love” since God Is a Being of Love and this “fact” is beyond any human’s ability to “conceive”.
Either God “cares” for ALL of God’s creation or God doesn’t, personally, I believe that God cares for ALL of God’s creation.
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mikekle
Guest
Yes, but as many state, this is only possible when a person is alive, once they die, forgiveness is no longer an alternative…in other words, once we die, our fates are set in stone and cannot be changed based on anything we say or ask of God.
Im sorry, but this does not sound like the God I know, this actually sounds very conditional.
Unconditional would mean God would forgive those who have been in hell for centuries and suddenly realized the error of their ways and could be saved by God, Many say this is not possible though.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I don’t know if it is a teaching of the Church or not but the Church has never “said” that anyone is in hell, have they?
Something to think about: Since God “created” time, will time “swallow up” eternity, will time be uncreated and end or will something else happen?
Do you think that it is or could have been part of God’s Plan for man “for which he was created” and that this will be thwarted?
This does seem to be what this statement says, doesn’t it?
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fhansen
Guest
I think the point about hell is that it would be a “place” where no one *has *anything to say or ask of God; they reject Him, they reject love. The rejection of and absence of God, whether in this life or the next, is hell.
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fhansen
Guest
Anything beyond what the Church teaches above is pure speculation. We’ll know in the end, where “All manner of things shall be well”.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
We say that Jesus went to hell, we say that Jesus took ALL the sins of all of humanity upon Himself, we say that Jesus “paid the ransom”.
We “say” a lot of things that we do NOT seem to believe a word of.
“My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, think about it, Jesus was NOT just saying some of the words of a psalm.
“It is Finished”, Jesus was NOT just saying that the crucifixion was done but that the work of the cross, “Paid in Full”.
There was much, much more going on than just the physical at the cross.
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grannymh
Guest
May I gently point out that the particular “presumption” in post 213 did not indicate that “we should not ‘presume’ anything about God.” It was a specific presumption (containing a specific human misunderstanding) and not a general universal presumption. I did not see anything about presuming that God cannot have a plan that has “Mercy on us all.”
God’s Plan of Mercy is stated up front, in the first three chapters of Genesis. (Genesis 3:15; CCC, 410-411; CCC, 420-421)
I am just beginning to understand “freedom” as expressed in CCC, 1730-1734.
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
It is difficult to escape the fact that our human nature includes a rational intellect and freedom to act or not to act, to do this or that, to maintain or destroy our bond with Divinity.
When I first landed on CAF, I learned about “determinism”. I posted that I flat out refuse to be a rock. A gentleman replied that I would be a pretty rock like a flower.
In other words, I want God’s Plan of Mercy to be in play all the way to my very last breath. I am a sinner who wants the opportunity to call out to Jesus hanging bloody on His cross. Even though true freedom has the possibility of choosing between good and evil (CCC, 1732), we need to remember that it is this true freedom which allows us to seek our Creator and freely attain His full and blessed perfection by cleaving to Him. (CCC, 1730)God has revealed His Plan of Mercy. (John 3: 16) What we need to do is to pray and hope that all of us will respond to God’s plan. We need to say the “Our Father” every day.
None of us are “pet rocks”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock
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fhansen
Guest
Jesus also said this, in Luke 13:
**He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
**
And the teaching is relevant, lest we grow complacent, believing we have no responsibility or obligation, and therefore no need to strive for holiness. From the Catechism again:
**1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”**
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grannymh
Guest
My way of saying the same thing is that our “condition” is that we are the creature and as such we need to be submissive to our Creator. God’s love, regardless of how it is described, does not change the fact that we are creatures. Nor does God’s love nullify the fact that we, in our God-given gift of freedom, can both seek union with God *and *destroy our own relationship with God.
This is the essential issue and you do state it well. In my view, “supposition” is the operative word.
This example brings to my mind, memories of a long-ago “Life’s Healing Journey” retreat. A guest priest spoke about what would happen if he went out to the parking lot and some *#! person was backing into his car. This person said he was sorry and hoped that the priest would forgive him. The guest priest smiled as he told us that he would accept the person’s sorrow and would certainly forgive him along with handing this person the bill for repairs.That isn’t necessarily true. If you smack into me on the highway and it is because you ran a red light and my poor little car is demolished and I jump out and we exchange insurances, etc. I will as a human be very upset at you, your car and the mess you made in my life at that time. I will get angry and will also need to forgive you to free myself from the excess of negative emotions such an occurrence involves. I’ll forgive you and get on with my life. But I also may call a lawyer who will be very interested in making sure the mess you made gets cleaned up and a type of human justice happens because YOU ran the red light.
Now, I may have very well forgiven you almost instantly at that time because I’m Christian and it comes pretty natural to do so. But when I do that I have no feelings of love towards you. My love has nothing to do with my act of forgiveness. I don’t go in my head “Oh I love this guy who smacked into me so I must forgive all this mess he made of my car, etc” Sorry, but I don’t think like that. I forgive you, but I don’t love you. Forgiveness is a condition God places on us when He tells us that our Heavenly Father will forgive if we do. So, even if I only forgive in a very rudimentary way because God requires I forgive so He can forgive me, I am once again seeing a condition on God’s forgiveness of me. No warm and fuzzy “unconditional love” there at all. Just a fact: forgive to be forgiven.
Like you said in your example, human justice exists along with love and forgiveness. God’s love goes beyond human justice. This guest priest did not add that he would take this *#! driver to the best restaurant in town and treat him to the most expensive dinner on the menu. But God does that along with justice and love. God immediately returns the sinner to the state of Sanctifying Grace in which we share in the Divine life of the Trinity. This does not erase the repentance due for Mortal Sin. Instead, Sanctifying Grace is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues God’s work of sanctifying us–of making us “perfect,” holy and Christlike. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898; CCC, 1965-66; CCC, 1996-2000) What matters to God, is that the sinner freely returns to the intimate, personal relationship with his Creator.
Due to post requirements, this is continued…
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grannymh
Guest
Continued from post 233
We are free, that is, we are not rocks which can only roll one way downhill. God willed that we should have freedom of choice so that we, of our own accord, could freely attain our goal of eternal joy-filled union with God. (CCC, 1730) We have the option of two ways to roll --choosing ourselves or choosing to go beyond the material aspects of our nature and ascend the hills to heaven above.
As I read Catholicism, maintaining the union of love (Sanctifying Grace) between our self and our Divine Creator is necessary for salvation. Because we have the freedom to do this or that, we can choose to remain in this necessary relationship or we can destroy it via Mortal Sin. (CCC 1730-1734; CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin page 889) )
Understanding that God’s love is eternal is essential. Because our human nature is an unique unification of the spiritual (in the image of God) and material ( in the image of our created environment) we are called to share in God’s eternal life of love. Because we are created creatures, we recognize our dependence on God and our need to be submissive and obedient to Him. Therefore, we need, in the midst of evil, to fix the eyes of our Faith on Jesus, Our Savior. We need to use His Sacraments as tools or means to maintain our relationship with the Trinity. We need to receive Jesus, truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
Regardless of semantics, conditional or unconditional, we cannot fool God by misusing His love to suit our preferences for sinning. We need to accept God’s love as His personal love of us – His love which leads us to our personal union with Him. We need to obey God’s love.
You are correct. This presumption, or supposition which you used above, is very unhealthy for solid Christian thinking. However, the concept of “unconditional love” in itself, meaning that it is not confused with forgiveness and justice, is necessary for solid Christian thinking. In its pure interpretation, unconditional love refers to the fact that the Creator is not limited or restricted in any way. He can freely love our muddy selves. What is amazing to me, is that the Creator shared His freedom with us. Obviously, we are not totally free because being creatures, we are limited by our material anatomy. We can flap our arms, but we will not fly like birds.**I think that is one of the problems with believing in an “unconditional” love of God - it presupposes that one will be forgiven because one is loved. This is presumption. **It isn’t healthy for solid Christian thinking. But that really is just my opinion and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe scrambled eggs and toast).
We are free, that is, we are not rocks which can only roll one way downhill. God willed that we should have freedom of choice so that we, of our own accord, could freely attain our goal of eternal joy-filled union with God. (CCC, 1730) We have the option of two ways to roll --choosing ourselves or choosing to go beyond the material aspects of our nature and ascend the hills to heaven above.
Please correct me if I am misinterpreting you. What I am hearing is that you recognize God’s “personal” love for you. And you are willing to do the things He asks you to do; for example, forgive to be forgiven. You are also concerned about the fact that the word “unconditional” has been misused by a variety of people. That is a real worry.
As I read Catholicism, maintaining the union of love (Sanctifying Grace) between our self and our Divine Creator is necessary for salvation. Because we have the freedom to do this or that, we can choose to remain in this necessary relationship or we can destroy it via Mortal Sin. (CCC 1730-1734; CCC, Glossary, Mortal Sin page 889) )
Understanding that God’s love is eternal is essential. Because our human nature is an unique unification of the spiritual (in the image of God) and material ( in the image of our created environment) we are called to share in God’s eternal life of love. Because we are created creatures, we recognize our dependence on God and our need to be submissive and obedient to Him. Therefore, we need, in the midst of evil, to fix the eyes of our Faith on Jesus, Our Savior. We need to use His Sacraments as tools or means to maintain our relationship with the Trinity. We need to receive Jesus, truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
Regardless of semantics, conditional or unconditional, we cannot fool God by misusing His love to suit our preferences for sinning. We need to accept God’s love as His personal love of us – His love which leads us to our personal union with Him. We need to obey God’s love.
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david_patrick
Guest
hi-i like the way this is described-well done-and very helpful…thx patrick
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clem456
Guest
What is “love of God”?
To put it bluntly, to attempt to place conditions on God’s love is idolatry… it is an attempt to conform God to the image of man, who does not love unconditionally.
This is a blessed reality for us. If anything depended on our way of loving, we are dead. We have God’s way of loving, which saves us.
The unalterable nature of God’s love, before even the existence of man, is foundational to everything and anything. There are no conditions on God’s love.
To put it bluntly, to attempt to place conditions on God’s love is idolatry… it is an attempt to conform God to the image of man, who does not love unconditionally.
This is a blessed reality for us. If anything depended on our way of loving, we are dead. We have God’s way of loving, which saves us.
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glendab
Guest
Hello Granny. You’ve taken some time and put some though into your reply. Thank you.
I need to just say I’ve just returned from Church where I went to the Sacrament of Confession. I go regularly and have done so since becoming a Catholic. I love to go. It sets my heart on Jesus all over again and the grace that flows from His Sacred Heart over me is incredible. Praise God for this gift of His redeeming works. But then I opened this thread back up and felt disappointed once again. So here goes.
I appreciated your agreeing with me on some points but I still think your wrong to say that we must understand an “unconditional” love of God for solid Christian thinking. Not so. There is no specific word we are required to use to describe God’s love for us. We can say, as Scripture does, that His love is passionate, steadfast, undying, jealous, avenging, etc, But I don’t find the word “unconditional” as a qualifying addition in the Sacred Text. This doesn’t mean if it ain’t in Scripture I don’t buy it, but it DOES say something about the word itself. Why didn’t the early Church Fathers know of the “unconditional” love of God and why didn’t they speak of it? If you ask me that’s because they were working reeeeeeeeeally hard on getting folks* to accept the conditions being Christian meant*.
You “interpret” the word for me and claim it shows God limitlessness. You say it shows that the Creator is not to be limited in any way, then why did He give Peter the keys of the kingdom and agree to honor any and everything he (Peter) held bound or loosed? God right there was agreeing to terms, to conditions and they weren’t even mentioned. How many different Popes have there been since then and God has honored everything they’ve used this unique power of binding and loosing on ever since. These are some mighty conditions.
I am also cautious of folks who insist that I accept an unconditional love of God for whatever reason they say I need to do. It smacks of an approach by Protestants to save me. I’ve heard it once too often to be fooled and when I hear the same sales pitch coming from a Catholic’s mouth, it does not help me to let down my defenses. Sorry if that offends anyone. But hey I’ve worked hard to be a convert and learn the things I needed. I’m still learning and I won’t be tricked out of it either. I’m very protective of my little mustard seed of faith. There are many wolves in sheep’s clothing these days.
In this thread it was mentioned that our current Holy Father used the term “infinite” to describe God’s love and the person stating that (Clem) expected that to silence me because the Pope himself had used the word “infinite” which is close to “unconditional”. So, I pointed to the fact that it was a sentiment in an address given to encourage disabled persons which I actually got on my computer the day the Holy Father said it because I get a daily dispatch from Rome and am a disabled person and it concerned me specifically. But the way it was misused here was to “prove” even the Pope believes in the “unconditional” love of God and I was not Catholic to see it this way. When I mentioned this attempt to manipulate our Holy Fathers words into appearing to condone the doctrine of an unconditional love of God I was totally ignored. And why bring it up now so long again after it has been forgotten? Because the silence of the fella who used Pope Francis’ words as if they were a doctrinal statement shows how hard some folks cling to the notion of an “unconditional” love of God.
Well Granny I hope this helps you understand my point of view. No I don’t feel any less of a Christian if I don’t accept God’s unconditional love. He loves me. I love Him. I’m working on getting to Heaven.
I still think that the phrase “unconditional love of God” is a slippery slope down which many have slid into sin an presumption and when I am asked to describe God’s love, I choose my words carefully lest I cause sin in my brother or sister in Christ.
Glenda
Well, I shortened your reply so I can address your concerns.
I need to just say I’ve just returned from Church where I went to the Sacrament of Confession. I go regularly and have done so since becoming a Catholic. I love to go. It sets my heart on Jesus all over again and the grace that flows from His Sacred Heart over me is incredible. Praise God for this gift of His redeeming works. But then I opened this thread back up and felt disappointed once again. So here goes.
I appreciated your agreeing with me on some points but I still think your wrong to say that we must understand an “unconditional” love of God for solid Christian thinking. Not so. There is no specific word we are required to use to describe God’s love for us. We can say, as Scripture does, that His love is passionate, steadfast, undying, jealous, avenging, etc, But I don’t find the word “unconditional” as a qualifying addition in the Sacred Text. This doesn’t mean if it ain’t in Scripture I don’t buy it, but it DOES say something about the word itself. Why didn’t the early Church Fathers know of the “unconditional” love of God and why didn’t they speak of it? If you ask me that’s because they were working reeeeeeeeeally hard on getting folks* to accept the conditions being Christian meant*.
You “interpret” the word for me and claim it shows God limitlessness. You say it shows that the Creator is not to be limited in any way, then why did He give Peter the keys of the kingdom and agree to honor any and everything he (Peter) held bound or loosed? God right there was agreeing to terms, to conditions and they weren’t even mentioned. How many different Popes have there been since then and God has honored everything they’ve used this unique power of binding and loosing on ever since. These are some mighty conditions.
I am also cautious of folks who insist that I accept an unconditional love of God for whatever reason they say I need to do. It smacks of an approach by Protestants to save me. I’ve heard it once too often to be fooled and when I hear the same sales pitch coming from a Catholic’s mouth, it does not help me to let down my defenses. Sorry if that offends anyone. But hey I’ve worked hard to be a convert and learn the things I needed. I’m still learning and I won’t be tricked out of it either. I’m very protective of my little mustard seed of faith. There are many wolves in sheep’s clothing these days.
In this thread it was mentioned that our current Holy Father used the term “infinite” to describe God’s love and the person stating that (Clem) expected that to silence me because the Pope himself had used the word “infinite” which is close to “unconditional”. So, I pointed to the fact that it was a sentiment in an address given to encourage disabled persons which I actually got on my computer the day the Holy Father said it because I get a daily dispatch from Rome and am a disabled person and it concerned me specifically. But the way it was misused here was to “prove” even the Pope believes in the “unconditional” love of God and I was not Catholic to see it this way. When I mentioned this attempt to manipulate our Holy Fathers words into appearing to condone the doctrine of an unconditional love of God I was totally ignored. And why bring it up now so long again after it has been forgotten? Because the silence of the fella who used Pope Francis’ words as if they were a doctrinal statement shows how hard some folks cling to the notion of an “unconditional” love of God.
Well Granny I hope this helps you understand my point of view. No I don’t feel any less of a Christian if I don’t accept God’s unconditional love. He loves me. I love Him. I’m working on getting to Heaven.
I still think that the phrase “unconditional love of God” is a slippery slope down which many have slid into sin an presumption and when I am asked to describe God’s love, I choose my words carefully lest I cause sin in my brother or sister in Christ.
Glenda
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glendab
Guest
Oh dear Clem!
God placed Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and gave them one condition: to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did so and lost God’s favor. We all bare the marks of their failure in Original sin. They failed the conditions of their confinement to Eden and were cast out. God is the Lawgiver. He is the one who makes all conditions, whether they are the conditions that keep the planets orbiting and the stars fixed in their ways right down to the conditions under which we receive the Blessed Sacrament and also the conditons under which we receive Absolution. There are conditions on* everything*. Why you’ve never addressed this fact in this thread I cannot understand. I can only surmise that you think God’s love for you nullifies all of the obvious conditions we live by as Catholics.
Oh well. I’m an devil and an idolater. So be it. You’re free to believe anything you want. I hope I’ve at least given some here pause to think about what they really know about God and His love for His chosen ones.
Glenda
I’m an idolater because I accept God’s Law which is eternal and fulfilled in Jesus Christ? Gee, thanks for the compliment. You even called me a devil at the start of this. Goodness gracious me!
God placed Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and gave them one condition: to not eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. They did so and lost God’s favor. We all bare the marks of their failure in Original sin. They failed the conditions of their confinement to Eden and were cast out. God is the Lawgiver. He is the one who makes all conditions, whether they are the conditions that keep the planets orbiting and the stars fixed in their ways right down to the conditions under which we receive the Blessed Sacrament and also the conditons under which we receive Absolution. There are conditions on* everything*. Why you’ve never addressed this fact in this thread I cannot understand. I can only surmise that you think God’s love for you nullifies all of the obvious conditions we live by as Catholics.
Oh well. I’m an devil and an idolater. So be it. You’re free to believe anything you want. I hope I’ve at least given some here pause to think about what they really know about God and His love for His chosen ones.
Glenda
- Status