Unconditional love of God?

[grannymh]

Hello Granny. You’ve taken some time and put some though into your reply. Thank you.

Well, I shortened your reply so I can address your concerns.

I need to just say I’ve just returned from Church where I went to the Sacrament of Confession. I go regularly and have done so since becoming a Catholic. I love to go. It sets my heart on Jesus all over again and the grace that flows from His Sacred Heart over me is incredible. Praise God for this gift of His redeeming works. But then I opened this thread back up and felt disappointed once again. So here goes.

I appreciated your agreeing with me on some points but I still think your wrong to say that we must understand an “unconditional” love of God for solid Christian thinking.

May I gently point out that I never used the word must coupled with understand in posts 233-*234. *And may I gently point out that I was very careful to use word concept followed by a particular meaning. And may I gently point out that I gave the pure interpretation which is based on the Catholic truth that God is not limited or restricted in any way.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. However, I prefer that they disagree with what I actually said. If I use words like concept or if I say that it is necessary that one word not be confused with other words – and a clarification is needed, I would appreciate being asked to clarify.

You “interpret” the word for me and claim it shows God limitlessness. You say it shows that the Creator is not to be limited in any way, then why did He give Peter the keys of the kingdom and agree to honor any and everything he (Peter) held bound or loosed? God right there was agreeing to terms, to conditions and they weren’t even mentioned. How many different Popes have there been since then and God has honored everything they’ve used this unique power of binding and loosing on ever since. These are some mighty conditions.

All I will say is that the Catholic Church was founded to help people preserve their state of Sanctifying Grace (sharing in the Divine life of the Trinity) which includes growing in holiness, that is, becoming Christlike.

In conclusion, it has never been my intention to “convert” anyone. All I hope for is that what I have posted is actually understood as written so that there is a proper base for discussion. I have done all that is possible for me to do. Thank you.

 

[clem456]

Oh dear Clem!

I’m an idolater because I accept God’s Law which is eternal and fulfilled in Jesus Christ? Gee, thanks for the compliment. You even called me a devil at the start of this. Goodness gracious me!

Glenda

Wow
My post didn’t address you, I never called you either of those things, and I don’t dispute what you say above about God’s law^^. Why can’t you just take a post at face value without manufacturing a personal offense??
I’m sorry I spoke and I’m sorry for whatever it is that bothers you.

 

[billcu1]

I don’t think God has love. God is love. Perfection of Love. Yet since God is entirely simple and he is not attributes and has no attributes. Love can only be in analogy attributed to God.

Make sense?

 

[clem456]

I don’t think God has love. God is love. Perfection of Love. Yet since God is entirely simple and he is not attributes and has no attributes. Love can only be in analogy attributed to God.

Make sense?

Yes.
“Has” also seems to imply possession. If God is the source of all things, he does not possess, or acquire, or grow in, love, like we might. Rather, love is his identity and essence.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p1.htm

199 “I believe in God”: this first affirmation of the Apostles’ Creed is also the most fundamental. The whole Creed speaks of God, and when it also speaks of man and of the world it does so in relation to God. The other articles of the Creed all depend on the first, just as the remaining Commandments make the first explicit. The other articles help us to know God better as he revealed himself progressively to men. "The faithful first profess their belief in God."2
In other words, we do not conform God to our image. Quite the opposite, we are called to know God, and live in his image, in which he created us.

207 By revealing his name God at the same time reveals his faithfulness which is from everlasting to everlasting, valid for the past (“I am the God of your father”), as for the future (“I will be with you”).12 God, who reveals his name as “I AM”, reveals himself as the God who is always there, present to his people in order to save them.

III. GOD, “HE WHO IS”, IS TRUTH AND LOVE

214 God, “HE WHO IS”, revealed himself to Israel as the one “abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness”.27 These two terms express summarily the riches of the divine name…“God is love”, as the apostle John teaches.29

God is Love

218 In the course of its history, Israel was able to discover that God had **only one **reason to reveal himself to them, a **single motive **for choosing them from among all peoples as his special possession: his sheer gratuitous love.38 And thanks to the prophets Israel understood that it was again out of love that God **never stopped **saving them and pardoning their unfaithfulness and sins.39

219 God’s love for Israel is compared to a father’s love for his son. His love for his people is stronger than a mother’s for her children. God loves his people more than a bridegroom his beloved; **his love will be victorious over even the worst infidelities **and will extend to his most precious gift: "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son."40

220 God’s love is “everlasting”:41 "For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you."42 Through Jeremiah, God declares to his people, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."43

221 But St. John goes even further when he affirms that "God is love":44 God’s very being is love. By sending his only Son and the Spirit of Love in the fullness of time, God has revealed his innermost secret:45 God himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he has destined us to share in that exchange.

 

[glendab]

Clem, why are you so good at cut-and-paste from Internet sources but you have yet to answer any of the questions I’ve asked of you? What can I conclude from this silence? You haven’t got any real answers to my questions.

Yes.
“Has” also seems to imply possession. If God is the source of all things, he does not possess, or acquire, or grow in, love, like we might. Rather, love is his identity and essence.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p1.htm

I know you believe that there is an unconditional love of God for folks. That is fine. But you’ve failed to find it in Catholic teaching specifically. It is implied sort of if one restricts one’s understanding of the word “unconditional” to a singular usage. Unfortunately, the word “unconditional” has a few meanings in a broader spectrum of usage including a few philosophical senses.

Well, here is one of the questions I asked that you refuse to respond to repeated: “As for His will being ‘all-good all the time’ as you said, what would you say to the flood that wiped mankind from the face of the earth and left only a few folks alive, Noah and his immediate family? That’s pretty bad - God killing every man, woman and child on earth. It happened. Man failed again to live up to conditions God placed upon them such that God was compelled to act to save a few.” This question was asked as early as POST # 12. You still haven’t answered it.

Thank you Clem for trying anyway. You’re very good at cut-and-paste but that proves nothing other than the word love can be found all over the place in the Catechism and Scripture. What you haven’t found is the word “unconditional” attached to it because #1 there are conditions on God’s love for us and #2 because the theology behind the notion of an unconditional love of God is a Protestant addition and #3 because it isn’t to be found in our teaching and #4 because it isn’t doctrine.

Deus caritas est. And when we love we can experience Him. We need to love Him but our love for Him MUST be guided by the Church or we live disordered lives. Accepting the guidance of the Church means we will live by her conditions. The psychology behind thinking there is some “unconditional” love from God towards us provides the straw with which the mind gets freed from conditions such as having to Confess to a priest or going to a specific building to worship God and any other number of Catholic conditions we must keep to live an authentic Catholic life. It isn’t just semantics as Granny hoped to conclude.

Well, that is what I think and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe chicken soup) and these are my humble opinions. I don’t need to believe in an unconditional love of God. I prefer my legalistic thinking. That’s who God made me and I think my job is to complete that. My legalistic thinking is a blessing because I see the beauty in the Law and I also see the giving of the Law to us as a loving thing from a loving Father who desires my Salvation. He laid down the Laws so I would have a Way to follow Him so my Redemption can happen and He has said that to love Him is to keep His Commandments. I love God and I love the Law because not only is God Love but His Law is Eternal. It is kept for us in Heaven.

Glenda

 

[grannymh]

:extrahappy:

Well, here is one of the questions I asked that you refuse to respond to repeated: “As for His will being ‘all-good all the time’ as you said, what would you say to the flood that wiped mankind from the face of the earth and left only a few folks alive, Noah and his immediate family? That’s pretty bad - God killing every man, woman and child on earth. It happened. Man failed again to live up to conditions God placed upon them such that God was compelled to act to save a few.” This question was asked as early as POST # 12. You still haven’t answered it.

Obviously, persons in love with God, who were wiped from the face of the earth, went to heaven which is the greatest good. :extrahappy:

With unconditional love, known by God’s actions, God gives the opportunity for eternal joy to each person regardless of how the person will eventually act upon this opportunity – to remain with God or to prefer oneself over God.
Those who, with full knowledge, freely choose to commit Mortal Sin or remain in the state of Mortal Sin at their last breath receive their choice to remain apart from God.

At the moment of conception, when God creates the spiritual soul, the person is called to share in God’s life. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility to be in heaven, in a way known only to God.

Heaven is possible for everyone who experiences death.:extrahappy:

 

[OneSheep]

There are really two separate questions being discussed here.

1. What is the nature of God’s love? The title of the thread is "unconditional love of God?"And to answer that, we look at how God is revealed to us. The Church expresses this to us in various ways through scripture and the catechism, etc… Human beings have no effect on the nature of God. Hence if God loves unconditionally, if he IS love… anything we do or fail to do cannot change him.
2. How do humans love?. How do we respond to who God is? Do we accept his love and act on it? The answer to that question is all over the place. None of us love as God does. We do not love unconditionally.

These two question are getting confused.
Some of us are talking about who God is, some are talking about who humans are. But we should not project human nature on to God, as if he is made in our image.

Clem, we can certainly will to love others unconditionally. It can be our commitment. And really, who is it that we do not love, but those we do not forgive? So, a commitment to love unconditionally is essentially a commitment to forgive unconditionally - I am talking about forgiveness from the heart. Realistically, though, as much as we will such love, our actions will be otherwise, at least in the short-term. So I see your point.

I see your point that we should not project our human nature on God. However, to me, projection is inescapable. If I hold a grudge against certain people, I would not be able to fathom a God who would not do the same. If I forgive everyone I hold something against, I cannot imagine a God who would do any less. For this very reason, it is essential that I forgive everyone (self included) in order that I really experience an unconditionally loving God. I think this is why Jesus makes such a big deal about forgiving everyone.

 

[fhansen]

:extrahappy:

Obviously, persons in love with God, who were wiped from the face of the earth, went to heaven which is the greatest good. :extrahappy:

With unconditional love, known by God’s actions, God gives the opportunity for eternal joy to each person regardless of how the person will eventually act upon this opportunity – to remain with God or to prefer oneself over God.
Those who, with full knowledge, freely choose to commit Mortal Sin or remain in the state of Mortal Sin at their last breath receive their choice to remain apart from God.

At the moment of conception, when God creates the spiritual soul, the person is called to share in God’s life. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility to be in heaven, in a way known only to God.

Heaven is possible for everyone who experiences death.:extrahappy:

 

[clem456]

Clem, why are you so good at cut-and-paste from Internet sources but you have yet to answer any of the questions I’ve asked of you? What can I conclude from this silence? You haven’t got any real answers to my questions.

I know you believe that there is an unconditional love of God for folks. That is fine. But you’ve failed to find it in Catholic teaching specifically.
Glenda

You’re joking.
Right?

 

[mikekle]

I think the point about hell is that it would be a “place” where no one *has *anything to say or ask of God; they reject Him, they reject love. The rejection of and absence of God, whether in this life or the next, is hell.

It is often said on here…“people send themselves to hell”, well, if that is true, then I imagine people can remove themselves from hell as well (after their death AS WELL as when they are alive).

We are basically all souls, but when we are alive we have ‘meat suits’ but our souls are the same, they exist just the same as when we are alive as when we are dead, so in Gods eyes, we are souls, not bodies, and since our souls are immortal…we are in a sense immortal, so our physical death really means little…imo anyway. so the real question is, what does Gods unconditional love apply to?..our physical bodies or our immortal souls?

Whose to say once some people spend a certain amount of time in hell, they realize the error of their ways and call out for forgiveness, if Gods love is truly unconditional, he would be required to save them, if they are sincere in their request that is, and Im sure God knows whats in their hearts.

 

[fhansen]

It is often said on here…“people send themselves to hell”, well, if that is true, then I imagine people can remove themselves from hell as well (after their death AS WELL as when they are alive).

Whose to say once some people spend a certain amount of time in hell, they realize the error of their ways and call out for forgiveness, if Gods love is truly unconditional, he would be required to save them, if they are sincere in their request that is, and Im sure God knows whats in their hearts.

Yes, and its all speculation in any case. I’m sure God would hear and answer them *if *they asked. Alternatively we can speculate that those in hell never ask.

 

[mikekle]

Yes, and its all speculation in any case. I’m sure God would hear and answer them *if *they asked. Alternatively we can speculate that those in hell never ask.

Sure, most things discussed on here is pure speculation, as in no one TRULY knows exactly what can and cannot happen in the afterlife, and God can make ‘executive decisions’ at any time, with anyone. I am just stating what I think is possible.

It is very possible for someone to truly hate God and want nothing to do with him in this life or the afterlife, but I would imagine once they die and know the truth of what is reality, tehy would have a change of heart, but who am I to know?

 

[grannymh]

.

I see your point that we should not project our human nature on God. However, to me, projection is inescapable. If I hold a grudge against certain people, I would not be able to fathom a God who would not do the same. If I forgive everyone I hold something against, I cannot imagine a God who would do any less. For this very reason, it is essential that I forgive everyone (self included) in order that I really experience an unconditionally loving God. I think this is why Jesus makes such a big deal about forgiving everyone.

Am I hearing correctly?

It sounds like God is made in human’s image.

 

[grannymh]

It is often said on here…“people send themselves to hell”, well, if that is true, then I imagine people can remove themselves from hell as well (after their death AS WELL as when they are alive).

We are basically all souls, but when we are alive we have ‘meat suits’ but our souls are the same, they exist just the same as when we are alive as when we are dead, so in Gods eyes, we are souls, not bodies, and since our souls are immortal…we are in a sense immortal, so our physical death really means little…imo anyway. so the real question is, what does Gods unconditional love apply to?..our physical bodies or our immortal souls?

What is being described is one of the many interpretations of Cartesian extreme dualism which is not acceptable in the Catholic Church.

 

[OneSheep]

Am I hearing correctly?

It sounds like God is made in human’s image.

We are all limited by projection, because we see everything from our own perspectives, whether we read other perspectives or not. When I read what the CCC says, I am still reading it with the vocabulary and experiences formed in my mind from the time when I was born.

God is not made in human’s image nor is some kind of manufacture. We only can see God with our own eyes, not with someone else’. Even when I try to see God from someone else’ point of view, it is still me trying to do so. I am not saying that we cannot learn from others, not in the least. I am saying that we have a very human limitation as to how well we can see who God really is, and if I love others conditionally, it is going to be very difficult to believe in a God who loves unconditionally.

 

[OneSheep]

Well, that is what I think and I’m no expert on anything (except maybe chicken soup) and these are my humble opinions. I don’t need to believe in an unconditional love of God. I prefer my legalistic thinking. That’s who God made me and I think my job is to complete that. My legalistic thinking is a blessing because I see the beauty in the Law and I also see the giving of the Law to us as a loving thing from a loving Father who desires my Salvation. He laid down the Laws so I would have a Way to follow Him so my Redemption can happen and He has said that to love Him is to keep His Commandments. I love God and I love the Law because not only is God Love but His Law is Eternal. It is kept for us in Heaven.

Glenda

So, my comments are for Granny too (this is an example, not a stereotype).

Glenda, you have an image of God that works for you. Your motive for behaving well is the law, and by the law you love yourself and others, and by the law you see that God loves you or does not. There is really no argument to be made against your perspective.

Some day, when you are really, really, angry at someone and you do not forgive them because of a particular condition (reason), and you are especially angry because not only does the person not admit their wrong, but the person refuses to apologize, consider this: You can hang onto the grudge for the rest of your life, which would be to stay with the law, or you can choose to forgive without requiring the conditions that the law (our conscience) so dearly holds.

When we choose to love with all our heart, mind and soul, we do so without the inhibition of the law. We do so against the workings of our God-given, automatic conscience.

 

[billcu1]

My only statement here would be unconditional love must be applied to God by allegory. God does not have unconditional love as much as is unconditional love. God does not attain to anything nor gain anything. Rather is everything in perfection. Hence his simplicity.

Secondly, because, since God is the first efficient cause, to act belongs to Him primarily and essentially. But that which enters into composition with anything does not act primarily and essentially, but rather the composite so acts; for the hand does not act, but the man by his hand; and, fire warms by its heat. Hence God cannot be part of a compound.

Thirdly, because no part of a compound can be absolutely primal among beings–not even matter, nor form, though they are the primal parts of every compound. For matter is merely potential; and potentiality is absolutely posterior to actuality, as is clear from the foregoing (3, 1): while a form which is part of a compound is a participated form; and as that which participates is posterior to that which is essential, so likewise is that which is participated; as fire in ignited objects is posterior to fire that is essentially such. Now it has been proved that God is absolutely primal being (2, 3).

newadvent.org/summa/1003.htm

 

[grannymh]

We are all limited by projection, because we see everything from our own perspectives, whether we read other perspectives or not. When I read what the CCC says, I am still reading it with the vocabulary and experiences formed in my mind from the time when I was born.

God is not made in human’s image nor is some kind of manufacture. We only can see God with our own eyes, not with someone else’. Even when I try to see God from someone else’ point of view, it is still me trying to do so. I am not saying that we cannot learn from others, not in the least. I am saying that we have a very human limitation as to how well we can see who God really is, and if I love others conditionally, it is going to be very difficult to believe in a God who loves unconditionally.

Note: I put the above sentence from post 253 in bold because it is key.

This sentence We only can see God with our own eyes, not with someone else’.
is why I follow Catholic Church teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. While it is true that my own eyes can see the beauty of God reflected in His creation, as well as the need to forgive others, I cannot depend on my own eyes to teach Divine Revelation correctly.

Seeing God with only our own human eyes often, not always, leads to various distortions of Catholic doctrines as evinced in some, not all, of the CAF posts across the forums.

 

[glendab]

Hello Clem. It’s me Glenda.

You’re joking.
Right?

No Clem this is no joke. 200 plus responses tells you this is no joke.

You’ve failed to prove the Church teaches an UNCONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD because it doesn’t. Like I’ve said before the word “unconditional” is an addition that if used as a sentiment is that only a descriptive sentiment, not a doctrine. It isn’t mentioned in either the early Church fathers as a doctrine nor found in the Bible at all. It isn’t an Article of Faith nor in our Creed. It is however, found frequently in Protestant teaching and if any church teaches an “unconditional” love of God for us that forgives sins, it the Protestants. This is a fact of a OSAS theology.

Clem, you’ve tried to prove that it is part of our Church’s teaching but failed. All you’ve done is cut-and-paste from Internet sources that contain the word LOVE and then INTERPRETTED what you cut-and-pasted to IMPLY there is an degree of “unconditinality” to God’s love for us that causes Him to forgive us. This is a interpretation belongs to a Once-Saved-Always-Saved theology.

What you’ve done with your arguements** is prove me right**. I should thank you and I hope you’ve taken my advice and begun to evaluate what you truly believe God’s love for you is and does.

I think what I’ve proven here is that some Catholics have fallen for Portestantisms and that pride keeps them defending it ad nauseum.

So, how’s that for NO JOKING?

Glenda

P.S. Why do you still not answer directly my questions?

 

[clem456]

Hello Clem. It’s me Glenda.

No Clem this is no joke. 200 plus responses tells you this is no joke.

You’ve failed to prove the Church teaches an UNCONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD because it doesn’t. Like I’ve said before the word “unconditional” is an addition that if used as a sentiment is that only a descriptive sentiment, not a doctrine. It isn’t mentioned in either the early Church fathers as a doctrine nor found in the Bible at all. It isn’t an Article of Faith nor in our Creed. It is however, found frequently in Protestant teaching and if any church teaches an “unconditional” love of God for us that forgives sins, it the Protestants. This is a fact of a OSAS theology.

Clem, you’ve tried to prove that it is part of our Church’s teaching but failed. All you’ve done is cut-and-paste from Internet sources that contain the word LOVE and then INTERPRETTED what you cut-and-pasted to IMPLY there is an degree of “unconditinality” to God’s love for us that causes Him to forgive us. This is a interpretation belongs to a Once-Saved-Always-Saved theology.

What you’ve done with your arguements** is prove me right**. I should thank you and I hope you’ve taken my advice and begun to evaluate what you truly believe God’s love for you is and does.

I think what I’ve proven here is that some Catholics have fallen for Portestantisms and that pride keeps them defending it ad nauseum.

So, how’s that for NO JOKING?

Glenda

P.S. Why do you still not answer directly my questions?

Glenda, just leave me alone please.
After prolly a dozen posts that are mostly quotes from Church teaching, I don’t need a lecture from you on proving points.

Will you please just ignore me?
I am sorry for whatever it is that bothers you.