US Bishops on George Floyd Killing: ‘Racism is Not a Thing of the Past’

[LeafByNiggle]

I see you have no answer for what would be a meaningful statistic to measure racism, like I asked.

 

[Ender]

I see you have no answer for what would be a meaningful statistic to measure racism, like I asked.

There has to be a statistical correlation between a cause and an effect such as the one claimed here. Without that you just have irrelevant numbers.

“Our data show that the rate of crime by each racial group correlates with the likelihood of citizens from that racial group being shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot. If you live in a county that has a lot of black people committing crimes, black people are more likely to be shot. It is the best predictor we have of fatal police shootings.”

 

[PetraG]

I stand with those who oppose government violence on citizens, particularly when it is done by progressives against Americans of color.

Why does it matter what the politics are in the persons who oppose government violence? It shouldn’t matter at all. Especially when someone you think is normally way way out in left field gets it right, I say give them all the kudos that you can!

They way blacks are often treated there reminds one of the way they were treated in the south in the late 50’s and early 60’s by guess who? The Democrats. Same party. Same results.

They’re not allowed in many hotels, they’re barred from being served at many restaurants, not allowed in certain parks or public pools, made to ride in the back of the bus…yes, sure, it is just like the South in the late 1950s. Just the same as it was then, and the situation in…where is the situation different? Where do blacks report feeling as if they are seen as totally belonging and not at treated differently based on their appearance? That’s what they’re saying in San Diego and Fort Worth? The local minority population is saying that the 21st century has arrived there, but not in New York or LA? Is that the gist of what you’re saying? (Maybe it is; I haven’t been to any of these places, at least not in a very long time.)

Oh, no, look, there are protests in San Diego and Fort Worth, too. I guess they want people elsewhere to have what they have? It is possible, since I don’t think any of the protesters in St. Helens, OR, were protesting their local police force. In many places, the protests seem to be much more concerned about making a national change than they are about the local situation. Not every police force has the problem of local minorities feeling they aren’t getting the same professional standard of police interaction as everyone else gets.

 

[josie_L]

But you’re implying racism is at the root cause for the discrepancy. That’s isn’t to say it can’t be or it isn’t a possible factor contributing to it, but you haven’t even bothered to test that out by viewing material/data with other possible causes/correlations.

Some studies suggest that the discrepancy is due in large part to the rate in which violent crimes are committed by groups.

As a group, Blacks commit violent crimes disproportionately more than whites.

Now ask yourself could that be why there is a discrepancy or even part of the reason why there is a discrepancy?

 

[PetraG]

As a group, Blacks commit violent crimes disproportionately more than whites.

Now ask yourself could that be why there is a discrepancy or even part of the reason why there is a discrepancy?

If you treat one citizen differently because he bears an accidental resemblance to someone who has committed a crime, that is not just treatment.

 

[JonNC]

Why does it matter what the politics are in the persons who oppose government violence? It shouldn’t matter at all.

It certainly does to the progressive media. They refuse to even point it out.

They’re not allowed in many hotels, they’re barred from being served at many restaurants, not allowed in certain parks or public pools, made to ride in the back of the bus…yes, sure, it is just like the South in the late 1950s.

Oh, the forms of Bigotry vary, but the characters are the same. And I didn’t say “just like”. Those are your words. I said “reminds one.”

Not every police force has the problem of local minorities feeling they aren’t getting the same professional standard of police interaction as everyone else gets.

Correct, but if you look at Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, etc. you see continued inter generational poverty, pathetic schools, criminal activity that hurts primarily people of color who live there. Who has been in charge there for 50 or more years, PetraG? Not Republicans. Not Donald Trump. Not me.
I and the overwhelming majority of Americans are not responsible for happened to Mr. Floyd. The overwhelming majority of Americans are angry that this garbage happens over and over.
Fellow Americans do not deserve to have happen what happened to him.
I can’t stand Keith Ellison, but I’m hoping he is successful in getting justice for Mr. Floyd.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There has to be a statistical correlation between a cause and an effect such as the one claimed here. Without that you just have irrelevant numbers.

I don’t think you understood my question. I asked for the description of a test that might possibly prove racism. Not a description of how not to do it. If you cannot describe a test that might show racism, you are setting up an impossible goal, and are essentially saying it is never possible to prove racism ever under any circumstances.

If you live in a county that has a lot of white people committing crimes, white people are more likely to be shot.

Is this claim backed up by real published data? I doubt they have data that shows that in such areas, being white means you are more likely to be killed by police than being black, for whites and blacks living in the same area.

That’s isn’t to say it can’t be or it isn’t a possible factor contributing to it, but you haven’t even bothered to test that out by viewing material/data with other possible causes/correlations.

Some studies suggest that the discrepancy is due in large part to the rate in which violent crimes are committed by groups.

As a group, Blacks commit violent crimes disproportionately more than whites.

If you take blacks and whites of the same socio-economic status, I don’t think that is true.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

What? The mayor in most cases trumps the chief of police in most matters. They issue stand down orders. The recommend funding levels. They hire the chief of police. Stop going from the blame lies with police then jumping about 50 levels to Trump. These problems could be dealt with at local levels, if the mayors were willing or capable. They clearly are not.

If you actually want to fix these problems, be honest about the things that need to change. Using these incidents to excuse those in power who bear responsibility portrays this as more of an opportunity to blame your enemies than one to try and fix problems.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

This is true because you typed that it was true.

 

[josie_L]

But the studies deal with criminal elements of that group, not just people who bear an accidental resemblance.

 

[josie_L]

There are more Black youths that are disproportionately raised in fatherless homes (ranging close to 80%) and that are as a result living in a single income household, which we very much know statistically does not bode well.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are more Black youths that are disproportionately raised in fatherless homes (ranging close to 80%) and that are as a result living in a single income household, which we very much know statistically does not bode well.

Again, are you comparing blacks and whites from the same socio-economic status or not?

 

[josie_L]

Even if I did, Blacks would be disproportionately more impoverished as a result of being raised in a single parent household then Whites, i.e., there are a lot less Whites being raised or who were raised by a single parent on welfare or one income.

There is furthermore a very high correlation between fatherless households and juvenile delinquency and crime. It is in fact the driving force, i.e., even above poverty this factor contributes or affects most the aforementioned issues.

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_fatherless_families_on_crime_rates

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Even if I did, Blacks would be disproportionately more impoverished as a result of being raised in a single parent household then Whites, i.e., there are a lot less Whites being raised or who were raised by a single parent on welfare or one income.

There is furthermore a very high correlation between fatherless households and juvenile delinquency and crime. It is in fact the driving force, i.e., even above poverty this factor contributes or affects most to the aforementioned issues.

Effects of Fatherless Families on Crime Rates [Marripedia]

So the answer is no. You did not compare blacks and whites of the same socio-economic status to conclude that blacks have more crime or more fatherless families. Then you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[josie_L]

So are you saying Whites commit more crimes then Blacks when they’re of the same socio- economic status?

 

[Ender]

I asked for the description of a test that might possibly prove racism.

Up through the 50’s and 60’s this would have been trivially easy to demonstrate, so clearly the subject is not intrinsically complicated.

If you cannot describe a test that might show racism, you are setting up an impossible goal, and are essentially saying it is never possible to prove racism ever under any circumstances.

There is nothing statistically unique about the subject of racism. However it is that social scientists study things, those same techniques are applicable to this topic. What is difficult is less doing the analysis than gathering the relevant data. The main objection to the 2019 study I referenced was that it lacked the data necessary to allow definitive conclusions.

What they all agree on is that there is too little data collected on police violence, the Calvary hill that almost all studies that attempt to address police brutality and racial bias get crucified on. Mummolo said that it is possible that there are ways for academics to get close to police encounter rates, such as by using traffic camera footage in some instances, or using responses from the Police Public Contact Survey. But these would still fall short of the data needed to draw solid conclusions about race and policing.

Is this claim backed up by real published data? I doubt they have data that shows that in such areas, being white means you are more likely to be killed by police than being black, for whites and blacks living in the same area .

Yes. Here in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

" 2) race-specific county-level violent crime strongly predicts the race of the civilian shot…"

 

[josie_L]

I CAN’T CHANGE THE FACT that a major proportion of Black youths are born into single income households without fathers and that this above all other factors leads to juvenile delinquency and crime.

The fact that there are less white children doesn’t signify that I’m comparing apples to oranges, I am simply relaying a reality that amongst children with the same socio-economic background of one parent/one income, most of whom are Black, are those most susceptible and likely to commit crimes when they are teenagers and into adulthood.

If you can’t see how that is a major contributing factor vis a vis crime and that this greatly affects as a result the Black community, which in turn leads to greater policing and therefore contact and run ins with said criminal elements of that community then I can’t help you!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I asked for the description of a test that might possibly prove racism.

Up through the 50’s and 60’s this would have been trivially easy to demonstrate, so clearly the subject is not intrinsically complicated.

I don’t think it is complicated to conclude racism right now either. But here we are.

*What they all agree on is that there is too little data collected on police violence, the Calvary hill that almost all studies that attempt to address police brutality and racial bias get crucified on. Mummolo said…

Appealing to authority. As long as we are picking our authorites, I pick Pope Francis and the US Bishops. You can pick who you want, but most Catholics I think will give more respect to what our Church leaders say that to what Mummuolo says.

Ender:

LeafByNiggle:

Is this claim backed up by real published data? I doubt they have data that shows that in such areas, being white means you are more likely to be killed by police than being black, for whites and blacks living in the same area .

Yes. Here in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

" 2) race-specific county-level violent crime strongly predicts the race of the civilian shot…"

This one-sentence precis is not clear enough to conclude that it shows that whites living in the same area as blacks and especially of the same socio-economic class are more likely to be shot.

 

[PetraG]

Oh, the forms of Bigotry vary, but the characters are the same. And I didn’t say “just like”. Those are your words. I said “reminds one.”

Drawing a parallel at all is a stretch, unless you have evidence of some big contrast between jurisdictions run by one party or the other. If you’re saying 2020 “reminds one” more of 1950 than it ought to, well, that is kind of the whole point of the protests.

If you’re saying that this is a problem no less in jurisdictions run by one party than the other, I don’t see how anyone can dispute that. I haven’t seen evidence that this form of injustice isn’t experienced in jurisdictions that have been run by Democrats for a very long time, nor evidence that Republicans oppose professionalism in law enforcement.

It probably is more of a problem in jurisdictions that have trouble keeping their police forces fully staffed, because they’d have a difficult time attracting the best candidates except among the ones who have a personal connection to the area. Police with the best resumes, the ones who can work anywhere they want, would naturally choose to work where the conditions are healthy, professional and fully staffed. It only takes a few people in a poorly-run or under-staffed department to make a huge difference, and there would be a real limit on what the most professional officers on those forces could do.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I CAN’T CHANGE THE FACT that a major proportion of Black youths are born into single income households without fathers …

I’m not asking you to change it. I’m asking you to consider that the cause of that FACT relates more to the initial socio-economic class of that family than to the fact that it is a black family.

The fact that there are less white children doesn’t signify that I’m comparing apples to oranges, I am simply relaying a reality that amongst children with the same socio-economic background (one parent/one income), most of whom are Black, are those most susceptible and likely to commit crimes when they are teenagers and into adulthood.

That I totally agree with. It is the socio-economic background that predicts fatherless families. Now go one step back before than and ask why low socio-economic classes are more likely to occupied by blacks? And if you say fatherless families, I will point out that we would have an infinite loop. Fatherless families breed low socio-economic backgrounds and low socio-economic backgrounds breed fatherless families. If you follow that back far enough, you are in the 1800’s and slavery. So now we have the true ultimate first cause. Just own it.