US Catholic bishops applaud judge’s immigration decision

[Bob_Aliano]

People will continue to enter the USA illegally whether or not this law ever becomes enacted. The border fence is a band-aid. The solution is to eliminate government assistance (yes, I am a libertarian). This will ensure that those who enter the country will be self-supporting as opposed to being a drain on taxpayers. Secondly, there should be additional penalties for illegal immigrants who commit crimes. Then those who enter the USA for bad intentions will have second thoughts.

That has worked very well for countries like New Zealand and Australia however, I believe the agenda of our government, past and present, is contrary to actually securing our country. There are significant financial and political reasons for both parties to maintain the status quo on immigration.

 

[Stylites]

On second thought, I am so outraged by Stylites’ Nazi insinuation that I’d like the moderators to consider it for reprimand.

Funny you should mention Nazis, as they’ve been in the news lately, patroling the Arizona border with guns, looking for misdemeanor border-crossers. Let’s hope there’s no ‘Mexican martyrs’ in their future, eh?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

On second thought, I am so outraged by Stylites’ Nazi insinuation that I’d like the moderators to consider it for reprimand.

If you feel that way, there’s an indicator in the upper right hand corner to do so privately. Why do you find it necessary to announce to everyone that you want another poster reprimanded? Where’s the charity?

 

[Stylites]

These illegals, you do understand what illegal means don’t you, are not jaywalking, they are invading a sovereign country, . . .

It is normally a misdemeanor to cross a border without permission. An ‘invasion’ presupposes an armed incusion, and these impoverished dishwashers and farm workers do not qualify as an invading force.

Now, people do use the term ‘invasion’ in a racial context: “Oh, these members of Race X are INVADING our neighborhood!” (i.e., renting or buying nearby homes and becoming their neighbors).

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Funny you should mention Nazis, as they’ve been in the news lately, patroling the Arizona border with guns, looking for misdemeanor border-crossers. Let’s hope there’s no ‘Mexican martyrs’ in their future, eh?

Are you really so ignorant as to relate a small pack of neo-Nazi skinheads with the entire population of Arizona and around 70% of the population of the US who support Arizona in this battle. The fact that these skinheads are there at all is again the result of useless, gutless US government law enforcement along our border. In addition, invading a foreign country is not a misdemeanor it’s a crime punishable by imprisonment and even death around the world and there is no doubt that an illegal population of greater than 20 million in the US is an invasion. By the way, Mexico has some of the most draconian laws of any nation in the world dealing with illegal immigration on it’s Southern border and are in no position to lecture anyone on the subject.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Are you really so ignorant…

Personal attacks against other posters are forbidden on the Forum.

 

[Stylites]

In addition, invading a foreign country is not a misdemeanor it’s a crime punishable by imprisonment and even death around the world and there is no doubt that an illegal population of greater than 20 million in the US is an invasion.

I was merely quoting what the law actually states; it would behoove anyone who rants about illegal immigration to at least uphold the law and not read into it what isn’t there.

Supposedly, there are 20 million jaywalkers each hour in the U.S. Does that give drivers the “right” to run them down?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The use of inflamatory language such as ‘Nazis’ or ‘Socialist’ will not be accepted.
Carry on.

 

[Tigg]

It is normally a misdemeanor to cross a border without permission. An ‘invasion’ presupposes an armed incusion, and these impoverished dishwashers and farm workers do not qualify as an invading force.

in·va·sion in váyzh’n ]

1. attempt to conquer: a hostile entry by an armed force into a country’s territory, especially with the intention of conquering it.
2. arrival in large numbers: the arrival of large numbers of people or things at one time.
3. spoiling: a spoiling of something by interfering with it or taking some of it away

Certainly definitions 2 and 3 pertain to this arriving force, and oh, BTW, the stats quoted as 12 million have been used for years; some conservative estimates place the numbers between 20-30 million. That’s a whole lot of bodies!

Supposedly, there are 20 million jaywalkers each hour in the U.S. Does that give drivers the “right” to run them down?

You facetiousness in using the term “jaywalkers” does nothing to alleviate our real concerns with this very serious issue and the direct impact on our lives.

 

[Vincent_N]

Bishop Vasa is right, as usual.

 

[Greg57]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/us-catholic-bishops-applaud-judges-immigration-decision/

Washington D.C., Jul 29, 2010 / 12:31 pm (CNA).- The chairman of the U.S. Bishops Committee on Migration, Bishop John C. Wester joined the Catholic bishops of Arizona in lauding the recent decision of a federal judge to block parts of Arizona’s new law on immigration from going into effect.

Here’s the problem - the bishops approach the immigration situation by ‘family’ - if you have an ‘illegal’ immigrant family in the U.S. (by the way, it isn’t ‘illegal’ to be here even if you don’t have papers) whose children were born here, then you ‘err’ on the side of keeping the family intact. Since the children born here are American citizens, that poses a pastoral concern. You don’t send them back to Mexico. You try to work to make them citizens. That is the only FAIR way to approach this problem.
Now, as for drug dealers and criminals who come across our borders, these have to be severely dealt with. They need to either be processed into jail, or need to be deported into the hands of the Mexican authorities. The border needs to be secured by the federal government, and effectively.

 

[jenlovesyu]

Here’s the problem - the bishops approach the immigration situation by ‘family’ - if you have an ‘illegal’ immigrant family in the U.S. (by the way, it isn’t ‘illegal’ to be here even if you don’t have papers) whose children were born here, then you ‘err’ on the side of keeping the family intact. Since the children born here are American citizens, that poses a pastoral concern. You don’t send them back to Mexico. You try to work to make them citizens. That is the only FAIR way to approach this problem.
Now, as for drug dealers and criminals who come across our borders, these have to be severely dealt with. They need to either be processed into jail, or need to be deported into the hands of the Mexican authorities. The border needs to be secured by the federal government, and effectively.

Thank you for writing a very balanced and informed post.

I live in Arizona myself and have already heard stories about little kids being left alone as their parents are being taken back to Mexico. A little girl brought her little sister with her to her elementary school because their parents were no longer home and they didn’t know what to do. It is horribly wrong for the state of Arizona to participate in leaving little kids to fend for themselves.

Businesses are also affected by this law in a negative way. I was shopping with my mom in a department store and the whole store was shut down for the rest of the day as a bunch of sheriffs were raiding it to see if there were any illegal immigrants there. This wasn’t happening as a result of someone being pulled over or whatever.

 

[PA650]

It is normally a misdemeanor to cross a border without permission. An ‘invasion’ presupposes an armed incusion, and these impoverished dishwashers and farm workers do not qualify as an invading force.

Now, people do use the term ‘invasion’ in a racial context: “Oh, these members of Race X are INVADING our neighborhood!” (i.e., renting or buying nearby homes and becoming their neighbors).

The topic of illegal immigration can carry on indefinitely as far as I am concerned. In my opinion, a much more pressing issue is the current political and economic state of Mexico that has forced a great percentage of their population, particularly from rural areas to the United States in order to gain a respectable level of living. This issue of illegal immigration must certainly be solved at its origin–a corrupt, impoverished and developing nation unable to provide a worthwhile living environment for its very citizens. Hopefully the warring drug cartels will not end up destabilizing the Mexican government, which will certainly not help us at all.

 

[deb216]

I just want to add that there are many illegal immigrants who never broke the law. They were carried across the border as babies and raised here. Their parents were criminals, for certain, but we are punishing those who had no voice and no choice in the matter. We deny them citizenship BECAUSE they are here illegally and expect them to “go home” to a country that they do not know. The sins of the father haven’t been passed to the son since the days of the Old Testament. To perpetuate such a law in this day and age is as inhumane as it can be.

 

[kimmielittle]

 

[kimmielittle]

The two very fundamental teachings of the Church are first and foremost TRUTH…and second is an individuals responsibility. When we dismiss the later…there is no dignity. We have, by our own actions, removed our self dignity - no one needs to take it from us. We have made a conscious decision to place our dignity in jeopardy…AND the dignity of our families.

If I knowingly and consciously, steal from my neighbor - I knowingly and consciously, jeopardize my rights to freedom. If found guilty, I will be subject to removal from that law abiding society. It will leave my family without my presence. I will be incarcerated - handcuffed and led away, no matter if I’m the income provider.

If All these illegal Immigrants 12 to 20million ] are mentally challenged and unable to comprehend their actions, IMHO you might have a case. BUT the fact remains - THEY make the choice…and THEY compound that choice everyday.

When it comes down to it…It is MY individual responsibility for such things as my salvation… The Church can lead me…BUT it won’t be the Church that has to answer for me.

By the same token It is MY individual responsibly to promote my self dignity and protect the dignity of my family. When I won’t chose to do so, I can not expect anyone else to “give” me dignity, IMHO.

 

[kimmielittle]

IMHO, People, including the Church, have failed to show Illegal immigrants do not have due process, under our laws. Or treated inhumanly.

They are not treated any different than any other law breaker. We do remove law breakers from society.

Some Bishops suggest the Naturalization Laws may be amoral and not to be obeyed. They have existed since the 1940’s. IF amoral, where was the Church the last 70 years, or so?

IF amoral, how do these same Bishops explain the tens of thousands some years hundreds of thousands ] of LEGAL Immigrants, each and every year - are those people amoral for abiding by existing laws? Logic HAS to work both forward and backward.

 

[Tigg]

I live in Arizona myself and have already heard stories about little kids being left alone as their parents are being taken back to Mexico. A little girl brought her little sister with her to her elementary school because their parents were no longer home and they didn’t know what to do. It is horribly wrong for the state of Arizona to participate in leaving little kids to fend for themselves.

I’m sorry, but this sounds so fishy to me. Please provide documentation that can show us proof that this is the states fault. Are you saying that officials deliberately knew there were children of illegals left unattended and did nothing to help them? Did the parents flee and deliberately leave their children behind? If so, that is abandonment and child abuse!

 

[Stylites]

The two very fundamental teachings of the Church are first and foremost TRUTH…and second is an individuals responsibility. When we dismiss the later…there is no dignity. We have, by our own actions, removed our self dignity - no one needs to take it from us. We have made a conscious decision to place our dignity in jeopardy…AND the dignity of our families.

If I knowingly and consciously, steal from my neighbor - I knowingly and consciously, jeopardize my rights to freedom. If found guilty, I will be subject to removal from that law abiding society. It will leave my family without my presence. I will be incarcerated - handcuffed and led away, no matter if I’m the income provider.

If All these illegal Immigrants 12 to 20million ] are mentally challenged and unable to comprehend their actions, IMHO you might have a case. BUT the fact remains - THEY make the choice…and THEY compound that choice everyday.

When it comes down to it…It is MY individual responsibility for such things as my salvation… The Church can lead me…BUT it won’t be the Church that has to answer for me.

By the same token It is MY individual responsibly to promote my self dignity and protect the dignity of my family. When I won’t chose to do so, I can not expect anyone else to “give” me dignity, IMHO.

The TRUTH is that crossing a border without permission is usually a misdemeaner. You mention “theft,” which is not indicated in the act of immigration. Now, as many try to do, you might want to cite a litany of “thefts” which immigrants allegedly do, such as place their children into public schools so that they can be educated and get a better life for them and for all of society, or that they lawfully receive handouts from your government representatives such as food stamps, milk, housing, health clinic and emergency room visits, etc., then these examples are not “thefts,” but lawful benefits. If you don’t like your government handing out humanitarian benefits then use your personal responsibility and vote in representatives who won’t do that; but don’t call or imply that the recipients of lawful benefits are “thieves.”

“There but by the grace of God go I.” If kimmielittle were born poor in Mexico, would she do any different if she had to feed her hungry family because of her personal responsibilty to them? And would charges of “theft” and “undignified” coming from inside a wealthy church deter her in any way?

 

[kimmielittle]

The TRUTH is that crossing a border without permission is usually a misdemeaner.

The Truth is, misdemeanors are punishable by fines and jail time. Just as if you or I shoplifted. If we continue to do so compound our lawlessness ], the jail time increases.

You mention “theft,” which is not indicated in the act of immigration.

I am talking about ILLEGAL Immigrants.

Actually, you are wrong. It is law that to LEGALLY work here in the USA, that you possess a Social Security Card Number and pay Social Security Taxes. When you don’t…it is theft from the “common good”.

Now, as many do, you might want to cite that if they don’t pay in - they don’t receive. However, many fail to note that it is called “Social Security Taxes”…weather one receives benefits from the fund - or not.

Illegal immigrants can not get a Social Security Card - This number is used to track not only Social Security Taxes - But State and Federal taxes, as well. You can not tax “fairly and justly” that - that goes untraceable.

Now, as many try to do, you might want to cite a litany of “thefts” which immigrants allegedly do

Again, we are talking about ILLEGAL Immigrants. LEGAL Immigrants don’t get deported.

, such as place their children into public schools so that they can be educated and get a better life for them and for all of society, or that they lawfully receive handouts from your government representatives such as food stamps, milk, housing, health clinic and emergency room visits, etc., then these examples are not “thefts,” but lawful benefits.

LAWFUL benefits apply to lawful citizens.

If you don’t like your government handing out humanitarian benefits then use your personal responsibility and vote in representatives who won’t do that; but don’t call or imply that the recipients of lawful benefits are “thieves.”

Actually, you are the one that implied that is what I said.

"There but by the grace of God go I

ABSOLUTELY. I would seek the help oif my Local Mexican Catholic Church to help me secure Legal status, if I felt I needed to immigrate. Again this IS the individuals responsibility - also I believe, it is the responsibility of The local Mexican Church to take on Social Justice Issues at a Local level, not ship people out illegally… or aid them to break the laws of a host country.

." If kimmielittle were born poor in Mexico,

Awww this sounds good…BUT how many people are born poor in America? It does not absolve them of their individual responsibility of being a good citizen. Are the Illegal immigrants brain dead? Do they consciously make their choices? Why do you people insist on treating them as some child…unaccountable for their own actions?

The TRUTH is: there are two fundamental teachings of the Church and Jesus. The first is TRUTH. The second is Individual responsibility. Believe it or not, compassion is held lower than these - NOT equal. TRUTH and individual responsibility are, at times, softened with compassion, in the Bible i. e. “Go and sin no more”…but never held above or equal to these two.