US Catholic bishops applaud judge’s immigration decision

[Stylites]

The Truth is, misdemeanors are punishable by fines and [or] jail time.

Then ask Caesar to extract a small fine for the horrid line-jumpers, in order to assuage the hunger of the revenge-trolls.

A drunk crashes his car and is dying on the side of the road. The Pharisee comes up and shouts into his bloody ear: “Wish I could help, but Jesus demands that you exercise individual responsibility, and so you ought to crawl out of the burning wreck yourself, if you can, because your individual responsibility is much more important to God than my charity. Since I am not my brother’s keeper, fare thee well, brother.”

 

[kimmielittle]

Then ask Caesar to extract a small fine for the horrid line-jumpers, in order to assuage the hunger of the revenge-trolls.

A drunk crashes his car and is dying on the side of the road. The Pharisee comes up and shouts into his bloody ear: “Wish I could help, but Jesus demands that you exercise individual responsibility, and so you ought to crawl out of the burning wreck yourself, if you can, because your individual responsibility is much more important to God than my charity. Since I am not my brother’s keeper, fare thee well, brother.”

IMHO absolute nonsense.

You seem to want to morally judge me
Show me where I’m amoral for expecting citizens to obey the laws. Do they not benefit from their stay here? If not, why come here? If they benefit, how do you explain their, not expecting to be law abiding? It IS our laws that provide these benefits.

Your analogy might work if your logic was sound.

Show me where the penalties for being Illegal…is oppressive.
Show me where the penalties equate to death…If their death from Mexico America isn’t seeking the death penalty ] is in their future, we have / offer asylum. The fact is, very few people apply for asylum.

PS. you pull the drunk out AND charge him/her for driving intoxicated. Do we not?
You still hold the person responsible.

 

[Tigg]

I just want to add that there are many illegal immigrants who never broke the law. They were carried across the border as babies and raised here. Their parents were criminals, for certain, but we are punishing those who had no voice and no choice in the matter. We deny them citizenship BECAUSE they are here illegally and expect them to “go home” to a country that they do not know. The sins of the father haven’t been passed to the son since the days of the Old Testament. To perpetuate such a law in this day and age is as inhumane as it can be.

Unfortunately, sin affects us all, and we do not live in this world with perfect equity. Just as we are the beneficiaries of the intercession and good works of the saints around us, so too, evil acts influence our world and hurt the innocent.

Liberals like to paint the picture that illegal immigration is just a matter of a poor and unhappy people seeking a better life. The other side of the coin is that it is a huge lucrative business which combines the greedy interests of multinational corporations with drug dealers, human traffickers and the like, with the agenda of a very corrupt government who refuses to do the job entrusted to it. This is causing a terrible breakdown in our society. The children of illegals are not the only ones suffering; we all are, on many levels.

 

[Tigg]

IMHO absolute nonsense.

You seem to want to morally judge me
Show me where I’m amoral for expecting citizens to obey the laws. Do they not benefit from their stay here? If not, why come here? If they benefit, how do you explain their, not expecting to be law abiding? It IS our laws that provide these benefits.

Your analogy might work if your logic was sound.

Show me where the penalties for being Illegal…is oppressive.
Show me where the penalties equate to death…If their death from Mexico America isn’t seeking the death penalty ] is in their future, we have / offer asylum. The fact is, very few people apply for asylum.

PS. you pull the drunk out AND charge him/her for driving intoxicated. Do we not?
You still hold the person responsible.

You nailed it, again!

 

[Stylites]

IMHO absolute nonsense. . . .

Your analogy might work if your logic was sound.

I used an example to counter your claim that personal responsibility was more important to God than compassion.

If the drunk gets rescued from his own wreck first and then arrested after being cared for in a hospital, then compassion is more important than individual responsibility. If he gets left in the wreck to fend for himself and is only cared for if he can pay for the care first, then compassion indeed takes a back seat to individual responsibility.

I would be morally judging others if I were to castigate whole groups of people as ‘thieves’ for wanting to educate their children. Try to follow what the Church teaches rather than what talk radio personalities teach.

 

[Corki]

Then ask Caesar to extract a small fine for the horrid line-jumpers, in order to assuage the hunger of the revenge-trolls.

Interesting you should mention “line-jumpers”… One of the biggest flaws in the Bishops’ position, IMHO, is that it ignores the thousands of foreign nationals patiently waiting in line for their opportunity to enter this country legally. For every one of the “line jumpers” we give amnesty to, we push the legitimate potential immigrants back further in the line. Those waiting patiently in line include spouses and familty members of citizens and skilled/professional workers that are badly needed in many industries.

I understand the filter the Bishops have when looking at the immigration problem. I am not sure family unity is a good argument. There are many sad stories that people tell about families being separated. In my own small circle, I know of many men who left families in Mexico and Central America to work here in the US. They see their families a few times a year. Others never return to their families, chosing instead to “re-marry” in the US and start new families here. Aren’t we enabling this kind of anti-family activity when we make it easier to enter and work here illegally?

 

[Stylites]

Interesting you should mention “line-jumpers”… One of the biggest flaws in the Bishops’ position, IMHO, is that it ignores the thousands of foreign nationals patiently waiting in line for their opportunity to enter this country legally. For every one of the “line jumpers” we give amnesty to, we push the legitimate potential immigrants back further in the line. Those waiting patiently in line include spouses and familty members of citizens and skilled/professional workers that are badly needed in many industries.

I understand the filter the Bishops have when looking at the immigration problem. I am not sure family unity is a good argument. There are many sad stories that people tell about families being separated. In my own small circle, I know of many men who left families in Mexico and Central America to work here in the US. They see their families a few times a year. Others never return to their families, chosing instead to “re-marry” in the US and start new families here. Aren’t we enabling this kind of anti-family activity when we make it easier to enter and work here illegally?

You are not responsible for what other people do or don’t do. The Church states that amnesty is the best way to move forward with needed immigration reform.

It is only the skilled and professional workers who can acquire needed visas to begin with; the poor who want to come to work are treated differently, and that is another concern of the Church. Our country needs a guest worker program, not more clubs and vigilantes roaming the desert.

 

[kimmielittle]

I used an example to counter your claim that personal responsibility was more important to God than compassion.

How do you drive compassion without FIRST taking individual responsibility? Individual responsibility is needed for compassion to even exist. You may temper TRUTH and individual responsibility WITH compassion, as Jesus did when He TOOK on Individual responsibility, to heal the sick. BUT He took on His individual responsibility AND empowered the sick…when He said “Go and sin no more”. What was the greatest gift - the gift of healing, OR the gift of empowerment?

Compassion does nothing to address anything but your, or my, reason for giving. It only adresses MY individual responsiblity. Are we to provide only a half TRUTH?

Empower the person to take on their individual responsiblity and this world would have much more compassion.

If the drunk gets rescued from his own wreck first and then arrested after being cared for in a hospital, then compassion is more important than individual responsibility. If he gets left in the wreck to fend for himself and is only cared for if he can pay for the care first, then compassion indeed takes a back seat to individual responsibility.

Again, your analogy fails logic. You need individual responsiblity to have true compassion.

I would be morally judging others if I were to castigate whole groups of people as ‘thieves’ for wanting to educate their children.

Actually, that is not why the majority of ILLEGAL immigrents are here for.

Try to follow what the Church teaches rather than what talk radio personalities teach.

Is this more judging on your part?

Show me where I’m not following what the Church Teaches in expecting Illegal immigrants to become law abiding citizens.

 

[Tigg]

The Church states that amnesty is the best way to move forward with needed immigration reform.

I believe this to be very misleading. When “The Church” is quoted, it most generally refers to the teaching magisterium. The U. S. Catholic bishops constitute an episcopal conference, and have no teaching authority exclusively unto themselves. Please read The Ratzinger Report, which was also upheld by JP II.

The immigration issue comes under the heading of their own prudential judgment.

catholic-pages.com/church/hierarchy.asp

Try to follow what the Church teaches rather than what talk radio personalities teach.

Regarding the following of immigration law, here it is:

CCC: 2241 Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them,** to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.**

 

[kimmielittle]

You are not responsible for what other people do or don’t do. The Church states that amnesty is the best way to move forward with needed immigration reform.

Can the Bishops point to the logic in this amnesty thinking? In 1986 Amnesty was given - guess what…it failed miserably and did not address Illegal immigration as a fact Illegal immigration soared.

Failed Amnesty **Failed Amnesty Legislation of 1986 **

nytimes.com/2006/05/23/washington/23amnesty.html

Could you please give your source for The Bishops embracing amnesty? In all my research, I have not found it

 

[fisheaters]

I would be morally judging others if I were to castigate whole groups of people as ‘thieves’ for wanting to educate their children. Try to follow what the Church teaches rather than what talk radio personalities teach.

The Church teaches that you cannot commit a wrong in order to accomplish good. Catholicism 101.

 

[Stylites]

The Church teaches that you cannot commit a wrong in order to accomplish good. Catholicism 101.

She also teaches that immigration is not a wrong, legal or otherwise. It is a right.

 

[Stylites]

Can the Bishops point to the logic in this amnesty thinking? In 1986 Amnesty was given - guess what…it failed miserably and did not address Illegal immigration as a fact Illegal immigration soared.

Failed Amnesty **Failed Amnesty Legislation of 1986 **

nytimes.com/2006/05/23/washington/23amnesty.html

Could you please give your source for The Bishops embracing amnesty? In all my research, I have not found it

The Bishops have called for immigration reform, including amnesty. Are you calling the Bishops wrong, foolish, unknowledgable, or incompetent?

 

[kimmielittle]

She also teaches that immigration is not a wrong, legal or otherwise. It is a right.

You are half right. LEGAL Immigration is a right.

 

[kimmielittle]

The Bishops have called for immigration reform, including amnesty. Are you calling the Bishops wrong, foolish, unknowledgable, or incompetent?

No, I’m asking you to prove that the Bishops embrace Amnesty

 

[kimmielittle]

Here is what they DO support

1. We bishops have the primary responsibility to build up the spirit of hospitality and communion extended to migrants who are passing through or to immigrants who are settling in the area.

• We call upon pastors and lay leaders to ensure support for migrant and immigrant families.
• We urge communities to offer migrant families hospitality, not hostility, along their journey.
• We commend church communities that have established migrant shelters that provide appropriate pastoral and social services to migrants.
• We encourage Catholics and all people of good will to work with the community to address the causes of undocumented migration and to protect the human rights of all migrants.
• We call on the local church to help newcomers integrate in ways that are respectful, that celebrate their cultures, and that are responsive to their social needs, leading to a mutual enrichment of the local church.
• We ask that special attention be given to migrant and immigrant children and youth as they straddle two cultures, especially to give them opportunities for leadership and service in the community and to encourage vocations among them.
• The Church on both sides of the border must dedicate resources to provide pastoral care for migrants who are detained or incarcerated. The presence of the Church within detention facilities and jails is an essential way of addressing the human rights violations that migrants may face when they are apprehended.
• We encourage local dioceses to sponsor pertinent social services for migrants and immigrants, particularly affordable legal services.
• In many rural dioceses, the primary site of pastoral outreach for farm workers is the migrant camp, usually at a significant distance from the parish church. In this context we encourage local parishioners to be prepared as home missionaries and the migrants themselves to be prepared as catechists and outreach workers.

usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml

Here is what they DON’T support

“Some people believe the Church is supporting open borders,** but the Church does not support open borders, and it doesn’t support amnesty,” **said Bishop Kicanas. “What the bishops are asking and pressing for is an earned pathway to citizenship. Illegal immigrants could come out of the shadows and wait their turn.”

ncregister.com/site/print_article/25057/

 

[Stylites]

“Some people believe the Church is supporting open borders, but the Church does not support open borders, and it doesn’t support amnesty,” said Bishop Kicanas. “What the bishops are asking and pressing for is an earned pathway to citizenship. Illegal immigrants could come out of the shadows and wait their turn.”

I stand corrected. Wait and pay a fine is fine, too. Splitting up families and deportation is what you won’t find them supporting for peaceful, undocumented immigrants.

 

[Corki]

Here is what they DO support

usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml

Here is what they DON’T support

ncregister.com/site/print_article/25057/

Thank you kimmielittle. I couldn’t remember the USCCB ever going so far as to outright call for amnesty.

It is also important to keep in mind that what the USCCB supports, or more specifically what the subcommittee on migration supports is not the same as “the Church teaches”. USCCB statements are not magesterial pronouncements.

 

[kimmielittle]

I stand corrected. Wait and pay a fine is fine, too. Splitting up families and deportation is what you won’t find them supporting for peaceful, undocumented immigrants.

I know of no one here that supports breaking up of families.
Many of us support say… a 90 day moratorium / grace for people who can prove they already have documented history here history in their name ], to take on their individual responsibility and start legal immigration…AND legal Tax status.

However, if caught after that 90 days - they risk deportation.

I believe, illegal employers should be prosecuted to the fullest legal extent of our laws. When employers can steal a $1.00 candy bar and get fined $ .10…they make $.90 cents profit.

I believe, that Democrats AND Republicans need to act together…not in backroom deals or on just political maneuvers.

I believe, Guest worker visas can be implementation and followed through with…including those who overstay their visa permits…one way might be to tie Social Security to expire with expired visas. When used for employment after the visa expires it red flags the necessary officials.

Put a stiff penalty on over staying visas AND prosecute offenders.

In short: make it easier for the individual to take on their responsibilities believe it or not - we already have some of the most lenient immigration laws in the world ] - and harder if they have no intention of becoming law abiding.

BUT I fear, many Illegals immigrants will continue on with their statuesque. And in another decade, we will hear the new wave saying our Immigration laws oppress them.

These accusations happen about every 15 -20 years.They are no truer now, than they were 20 years ago

 

[kimmielittle]

Thank you kimmielittle. I couldn’t remember the USCCB ever going so far as to outright call for amnesty.

You are very welcome.Justcallme kimmie,if you want

It is also important to keep in mind that what the USCCB supports, or more specifically what the subcommittee on migration supports is not the same as “the Church teaches”. USCCB statements are not magesterial pronouncements.

ABSOLUTELY