US is‘worst’ imperialist: archbishop

[seekerz]

On this point I have been bested, yes, he rebuked President William Jefferson Clinton as did Blessed Mother Teresa on a solid point of morality, Abortion. What they did I believe was the Holy Spirit from their mouth to his ears.

With regard to the war on terror we have been quoted from a book full of emanations, penumbra, vagaries, half truths and untruths, what we have yet to see are specific verifiable examples.

Being honest Catholic Christians we can have disagreements on the war and that is ok. What is not ok is to practice calumny; I believe most of the other side of the argument from mine believes strongly with a Christian faith. What I am hoping for is specific verifiable examples.

Strange how the Holy Spirit’s whispers to the Pope seem confined to the issue of abortion, ‘a point of solid morality’. I don’t suppose there are ‘solid moral’ points the Holy Spirit might have wanted to communcate to the Pope concerning war and dubious foreign policy?

I have noticed that JP’s utterances on such matters are dismissed by some as not being official Church teaching. I was just wondering, how does the process of something becoming “official Church teaching” start? Is it in the aforementioned whispers or is the transformation into official truth wrought suddenly, out of the blue via a bolt of lightning…?

 

[Shoshana]

On this point I have been bested, yes, he rebuked President William Jefferson Clinton as did Blessed Mother Teresa on a solid point of morality, Abortion. What they did I believe was the Holy Spirit from their mouth to his ears.

With regard to the war on terror we have been quoted from a book full of emanations, penumbra, vagaries, half truths and untruths, what we have yet to see are specific verifiable examples.

Being honest Catholic Christians we can have disagreements on the war and that is ok. What is not ok is to practice calumny; I believe most of the other side of the argument from mine believes strongly with a Christian faith. What I am hoping for is specific verifiable examples.

Why don’t you read the book and see for yourself. And you still haven’t my question about who debunked the Reagon’s calumny?

And half truths exist on the other side of the fence. There has not been transparency on the part of the ‘war on terrorism’. It was admitted that the war on Iraq was not right…but only after saying that they have to stay there to stabilize the country. It is true that the US is becoming imperialist…they have done as much evil as they have done good. It would be nice to see this admitted for a change…

 

[bones_IV]

Shoshana are you telling me that I’m sinning by supporting the war Iraq?! Shame on you! I think you’re comparing apples and oranges by comparing those who support the Iraqi war with those who use birth control and supporting same sex marriages. Either you are short on brains or are schizophrenic! Using your logic we might as well not have gone to war and defeated the axis powers! Learn some theology next time. Take your anti-americanism elsewhere thank you.

 

[Shoshana]

Shoshana are you telling me that I’m sinning by supporting the war Iraq?! Shame on you!

Did I say that Bones? You were questioning why so many catholics were supporting the war. I responded in kind. Whether it is a subject of apple/oranges is not my opinion at all. If you use catholic as a point in argument, I am telling that catholics, on the whole, do not obey official church teachings, let alone what the pope said about the war. That was my point. The sinning part is something I have no claim on, my friend. It was your deduction, not mine at all.

I think you’re comparing apples and oranges by comparing those who support the Iraqi war with those who use birth control and supporting same sex marriages.

See my above quote. Most catholics will not disctinct between the two at all. This is my experience anyway.

Either you are short on brains or are schizophrenic!

There is no need for name calling. Just because I refute your claim doesn’t make me one or the other, my friend.

Using your logic we might as well not have gone to war and defeated the axis powers!

The war on terrorism will not be won. There will always be terrorists in so many countries. This is a spiritual war and one does not use guns to fight such a battle.

Learn some theology next time.

I need to take theology to discuss this?

Take your anti-americanism elsewhere thank you.

Again, we hear it again. This is so, what would be the word? Let me count the ways…Never mind. I can criticize without being anti-american. This is what one does in the adult world. No country is beyond criticism at all. If you criticized my country, I would not consider you anti-canadian. It is such a childish way to deal with this. The pope himself criticized Canada as well, as he should. All countries are not the garden of Eden.

So please keep the name-calling to yourself. It is not conducive to a discussion.

 

[Strider]

Getting back to the OP and the coments of the Archbishop (because America/Bush haters will always find something to criticize and “My country right or wrong-ers” will defend errors or fall lnto arguing the disinformation), the first thing I thought of when I read the criticism was, “And who has beend defending Western Europe since 1945, allowing Britain, France, Germany, etc., to spend billions on technology in an effort to out-compete us on whe world market?” “And who secured democracy in Japan and still has troops in Korea to keep a damper on that nut in North Korea?”
If we train soldiers for our allies in our own hemisphere so that they can defeat Marxist strongmen, that’s our policy, and if some of them go off on their own, whose fault is that?
The Archbishop of Canturbury is watching his church disintegrate on his watch as a result of non-Christian decisions made by that church’s leaders since 1930, and he’s lashing out at the easiest target in the world, maybe trying to deflect attention from the disaster that is his own house.
I look at this as I look at personal insults that target me; I consider the source and move on. I cannot be insulted because I value no opinion highly enough to care, except, of course, God’s, and I’ll know His soon enough.

 

[bones_IV]

But you said,

“Why are so many catholics use birth control, abort? divorce and remarry once, twice, ad nauseum?”

You very clearly gave off the impression that Catholics by supporting the war were sinning. Very misleading statement.

“And these are mine. Why would so many catholics support dictators? or oppress their own people?”

You give off the impression that because I support the Iraqi war that I support blood thirsty dictators. :tsktsk::tsktsk: that’s bearing false witness against thy neighbor.

"I can criticize without being anti-american. This is what one does in the adult world. No country is beyond criticism at all. "

I never said anything of the sort.

“I need to take theology to discuss this?”

There’s a reason why we have theology. Need I qoute Fr. Stephen Toracco?!

** Question from on 05-16-2007**
I was reading information at cjd.org, the catholic social worker movement magazine. They state that Pope John Paul II has pronounced the Iraq war as an unjust war. Is this true? If so or not, could you give me or refer me to the official church document that refer to this decision, if there is one?I read the CCC which discussed the requirements for a Just War. I don’t see where the US is in violation of this. But maybe I am wrong.
Thank you very much.
God Bless You
Jerry
**
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 05-17-2007:**
According to the Church’s teaching, it is not within the expertise of the Church to declare this or that war as unjust. Rather, the Church teaches that it is within the competence and responsibility of the legitimate civil authority to determine whether a given war is morally justifiable. It is certainly within the Church’s teaching authority to exhort civil rulers to carry out their responsibility with regard to determining whether a given war is morally justifiable.

Shoshanna, I think the catechism disagrees w/ you.

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. the gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• ***the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

***There’s the key phrase right there.

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. the power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.

Amazing how you can take a statement of the Pope’s and just run with it. Stop trying to be your own personal interpreter of Catholic doctrine.

 

[john1863]

Strange how the Holy Spirit’s whispers to the Pope seem confined to the issue of abortion, ‘a point of solid morality’. I don’t suppose there are ‘solid moral’ points the Holy Spirit might have wanted to communcate to the Pope concerning war and dubious foreign policy?

I have noticed that JP’s utterances on such matters are dismissed by some as not being official Church teaching. I was just wondering, how does the process of something becoming “official Church teaching” start? Is it in the aforementioned whispers or is the transformation into official truth wrought suddenly, out of the blue via a bolt of lightning…?

Amen

John

 

[Shoshana]

But you said,

“Why are so many catholics use birth control, abort? divorce and remarry once, twice, ad nauseum?”

You very clearly gave off the impression that Catholics by supporting the war were sinning. Very misleading statement.

There must be a misunderstanding here. You asked why are so many Catholics supporting the war. This did not impress me because ‘so many Catholics’ do other things also. Does that sound better? It was not my intention to say that Catholics who support the war are sinning.

“And these are mine. Why would so many catholics support dictators? or oppress their own people?”

You give off the impression that because I support the Iraqi war that I support blood thirsty dictators. :tsktsk::tsktsk: that’s bearing false witness against thy neighbor.

Bones, again I am saying that there is proof that Catholics, in the past, have supported dictators…so telling me that many Catholics support the war means nothing to me. And no, people who support the war do not support dictators. One statement does not necessarily lead to this conclusion!

"I can criticize without being anti-american. This is what one does in the adult world. No country is beyond criticism at all. "

I never said anything of the sort.

You said I was anti-american!!! Then why did you say that?

“I need to take theology to discuss this?”

There’s a reason why we have theology. Need I qoute Fr. Stephen Toracco?!

Question from on 05-16-2007

And you have not answered my question…do you think that a secular government would abide by the Just War Theory written out by St Augustine? Anyway, I was talking about the Persian Gulf War…sheeshhhh…and who is Father Toracco? Must I quote from other sourves of prelates who disagreed with this priest?

Shoshanna, I think the catechism disagrees w/ you.

Amazing how you can take a statement of the Pope’s and just run with it. Stop trying to be your own personal interpreter of Catholic doctrine.

This last statement is yours and not mine. If you see that the government has done its best in not attacking Iraq in 1993, well, there is nothing I can say. I am not my own personal interpreter of Church doctrine. John Paul 2 has said himself in 1993:

Pope Voices Opposition, His Strongest, to Iraq War

VATICAN CITY, Jan. 13 - Pope John Paul II today expressed his strongest opposition yet to a potential war in Iraq, describing it as a “defeat for humanity” and urging world leaders to try to resolve disputes with Iraq through diplomatic means.

No to war!" the pope said during his annual address to scores of diplomatic emissaries to the Vatican, an exhortation that referred in part to Iraq, a country he mentioned twice.

bulatlat.com/news/2-49/2-49-readerbruni.html

It was also admitted that this Iraq war was falsely started by pro-war in Iraq people…but the country of Iraq must first be stabilized before leaving it. This is what the Vatican said. I agree. And when that statement came out, everyone hung on to that! And yet, at the beginning, the idea was fought that that war itself was a mistake!

Now, you can run with your perception of what the Vatican says…

Which makes the US an imperalist country…God bless! And no, those who are for or were for the wars in Iraq are not sinning…is this clear? I cannot make a statement like that!

 

[bones_IV]

“Which makes the US an imperalist country.”

By the way, imperalist is spelled imperialist. A parroting statement but nothing to back it up with. To answer you question the U.S. has the right to enforce the common good! How many people must be killed in the name of genocide before we do something? Cause that’s what Saddam was doing. WWII is an example of what happens when you let a problem like the Nazis grow! As far as the Iraq war in the 1990’s goes it was a just war in my opinion. Would you mind coming up with the names of the priests and theologians who disagreed w/ Father Toracco besides St. Augustine?

 

[joe_clark]

I see a flurry of activity going in many directions. I believe this is good and a good first step.

The 911 Commission Report First edition
page 559 under Notes to Chapter Item #75 bottom Right

" Department of Defense Memo, Rumsfeld to Shelton, "Some thoughts for CINCs as they prepare Plans,“September 19, 2001. IN a memo that appears to be from Under Secretary of Defense Douglas Feith to Rumsfeld, dated September 20, the author expressed disappointments at the limited options immediately available in Afghanistan and the lack of ground options. The author suggested instead of hitting terrorist outside the Middle East in the initial offensive, perhaps deliberately selecting a non-al Qaeda target like Iraq. Since U.S. attacks were expected in Afghanistan, an American attack in South America or Southeast Asia might be a surprise to the terrorist. The memo may have been a draft never seen by Rumsfeld, or may be a draft of points being suggested for Rumsfeld to deliver in a briefing to the President.
" DOD memo, Feith to Rumsfeld. “Briefing Draft” September 20, 2001.”

As you can see it took a short amount of time for the administration to turn this country in the wrong direction. Word for word the administration recognized Iraq on September 20, 2001,as a non-al Qaeda target. I don’t know what anyone is thinking here but America is in no position to cast the first stone. We sure can talk the talk but soon we will need to walk the walk.

This is as far as the commission were able to get, as all parties were difficult if not flat out refused to offer information sighting confidentiality and privilege. At this point it is crystal clear what the administration was thinking, why and how we arrived in our present state. Now the difficult work must begin.

America will defend itself if necessary, but itching for a fight can only lead to disaster and the loss of creditability. Credibility needed to broker peace in other regions in the future.

I will continue to pray for peace and for the safe return of all serving in the armed forces.

I.

 

[po18guy]

I’m sure glad that the European Union grants him permission to say such things. Anyway, we should all look to England for wonderful examples of how to treat your neighbors, like the Scotch and Irish. From his seat, it would appear that he is trying frantically to remain relevant - to something.

 

[CHCatholic]

Amen

John

Double Amen.

I love how some people here will listen to the Pope on any particular matter, except when it comes to Iraq. Boggles my mind.

Plus the Iraqi war was as Fr. Steven Toracco correctly asserts is not within the expertise of the Church to declare this war unjust. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to tell people this.

Please explain to me how the Church does not have the expertise to proclaim Her own Just War Theory?

WWII is an example of what happens when you let a problem like the Nazis grow!

Ya, because you Americans were in there right from the get-go!

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Saddam loving hippy. Nothing makes me angrier here in a Canadian college than hippies who want to pull out of Afghanistan at any cost. Then they would just be letting the Taliban and Al-Qeada right back in. Saddam was naughty and has to be dealt with.

What I DO have a problem with is a war, thats been totally botched, based on LIES. Last time I checked, GWB went in there on the basis of WMDs. Congratulations, you didn’t find any. This war is boloni and built on lies, and you silly Americans go shunning everyone who isn’t with you. Ie. the French and to some extent the Canadians.
Sure the Just War Theory isn’t dogma, but lieing is, particularily a lie that leads to many, many deaths.

 

[bones_IV]

Please explain to me how the Church does not have the expertise to proclaim Her own Just War Theory?

Because it’s within the sphere of the civil authorities to decide whether or not a given war is morally justifiable.

Ya, because you Americans were in there right from the get-go!

It was because the allies had the power to wipe out Hitler at the Rhineland. But the pacifist perverts won the day.

What I DO have a problem with is a war, thats been totally botched, based on LIES. Last time I checked, GWB went in there on the basis of WMDs. Congratulations, you didn’t find any. This war is boloni and built on lies, and you silly Americans go shunning everyone who isn’t with you. Ie. the French and to some extent the Canadians. Sure the Just War Theory isn’t dogma, but lieing is, particularily a lie that leads to many, many deaths.

The ten myths about the war.

1. War in Iraq is “All about Oil"
2. US is Fighting Alone
3. Iraq engulfed in full-scale Civil War
4. Iraqi’s Better Off Under Saddam
5. Iraqi Government Ineffective
6. Economic Development Nonexistent
7. Contractors Cost Gov’t Too Much
8. Troops Aren’t Properly Equipped
9. Morale is Low
10. The Biggest Myth: We Have Lost

blackfive.net/main/files/10_oif_myths.ppt

There’s your answer right there.

 

[Shoshana]

“Which makes the US an imperalist country.”

By the way, imperalist is spelled imperialist.

Thank you!
A parroting statement but nothing to back it up with. To answer you question the U.S. has the right to enforce the common good!

Common good? Maybe if they remained on such a course, but that is no tthe case, Bones. There is corruption in all governments and your government is no different. Explain to me Pinocher, Contrea et for starteers…

How many people must be killed in the name of genocide before we do something? Cause that’s what Saddam was doing.

And that is what the US was doing in South America…

WWII is an example of what happens when you let a problem like the Nazis grow!

Iraq is nowhere near to what WW2 is or ever was! And how may times does that need to be said?

As far as the Iraq war in the 1990’s goes it was a just war in my opinion.

And that is exactly what it is…your opinion…and in the same light, mine is mine.

Would you mind coming up with the names of the priests and theologians who disagreed w/ Father Toracco besides St. Augustine?

Just give me a day or two!

 

[po18guy]

Contrary to what Reagan said, John Paul went to the International Court of Justice in Holland, May 13, 1985, to deliver what in papal terms was a STERN REBUKE TO THE UNITED STATES- a speech that went curiously unreported in the US. I googled Mr. Kwitney and found, (SHOCK! ) that he is closely related to secular, far left wing and conspiracy theorist organizations. The very quote above destroys any credibility he might have had. The world and especially the US press absolutely hated Ronald Reagan. Each and every such “stern rebuke” would have been front page in the NYT for weeks. The political left did not like JP2, but if they could use him against Reagan, all bets were off. The book might be a good read, but I view it as political fiction, due to the heavily corrupting bias of the author.

 

[CHCatholic]

Because it’s within the sphere of the civil authorities to decide whether or not a given war is morally justifiable.

This is the biggest problem I have with American Nationalism. It blinds you. I find it odd that, assuming you’re a Catholic in good standing, that you find the civil authorities wrong on so many things, ie. contraception, same-sex marriage, abortion (which incidentally is killing more people than the Iraq War)…but when it comes to a war, you find the Vatican has no authority in morality and it lies solely with the government.

It was because the allies had the power to wipe out Hitler at the Rhineland. But the pacifist perverts won the day.

More blind American Nationalism. Ignore any efforts by Poles, French, Canadians, British to wipe out the Nazis and take all the glory for yourself. Talk to me about the Red Army defeating 80% of the Nazi frontline on D-Day on the Eastern Front.

1. War in Iraq is “All about Oil"
2. US is Fighting Alone
3. Iraq engulfed in full-scale Civil War
4. Iraqi’s Better Off Under Saddam
5. Iraqi Government Ineffective
6. Economic Development Nonexistent
7. Contractors Cost Gov’t Too Much
8. Troops Aren’t Properly Equipped
9. Morale is Low
10. The Biggest Myth: We Have Lost

Funny how I didn’t mention anyone of those, but rather mentioned WMDs. And if you don’t think you went into Iraq on the basis of WMDs, you need to get your head out of the sand.

 

[Shoshana]

I googled Mr. Kwitney and found, (SHOCK! ) that he is closely related to secular, far left wing and conspiracy theorist organizations.

So what that he is related to these people. Does conspiracy theories run in the blood? I think he has his own mind…and not everything that happens are related on the news!

The very quote above destroys any credibility he might have had.

And why is that? St Augustine was related to St Monica, He was the playboy of the century, does that make St Monica questionable?

The world and especially the US press absolutely hated Ronald Reagan. Each and every such “stern rebuke” would have been front page in the NYT for weeks.

Why, because he was republican? What happens if the stern rebuke was written in a private letter?

The political left did not like JP2, but if they could use him against Reagan, all bets were off.

You are ascribing a partisanship to the author that is not written in paper as proof. Probably would say the same thing about Pearl.

The book might be a good read, but I view it as political fiction, due to the heavily corrupting bias of the author.

Corrupting because they do not match yours? So are you very bias. I believe the truth lies in the balance of the medium.

 

[po18guy]

If you are putting forth a left bias, please say so. Some here are apolitical. It’s all about disclosure.

 

[chevalier]

I appreciate all the typing you have done, thank you. What I don’t that I read in your quote is where Pope John Paul II told the president to stop. I did see where the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) complained to the president. I am under the opinion that the USCCB is out of there competence when it demands changes in foreign policy.

Disagree. One could say the Church has no competence to demand changes in the laws regulating abortion, labour laws and social aid, criminal laws, you get the point. In every moral matter, the Church is competent to voice an opinion. Especially if that opinion is that aid should not be given to “allies” who rape nuns.

 

[chevalier]

Because it’s within the sphere of the civil authorities to decide whether or not a given war is morally justifiable.

Nope. They have conscience like everyone and they are bound by moral laws like everyone. Additionally, just like everyone, they don’t make moral laws. Moreover, a decision by civil authorities that a war is moral has no power to change reality, i.e. make an immoral war moral.