US president undermines Catholic schools after Vatican Prefect praised them

[BroomWagon]

Oh dear. I have very little to be proud of, as a Briton, in my country’s record in Ireland over the centuries, and of course colonialism is very important in that history. But if you think “occupation” is the issue for Britain today you see the world through strange lenses. Meanwhile take a look at the results of the Good Friday agreement referendum in Northern Ireland and (even more strikingly) in the Republic.
The truth is that here is a small portion of the globe inhabited by two different tribes, as it were, in whose history religious differences have been the cause of great sufferings, and who identify each other by their religious labels. We, that is to say the community, separate those tribes as children. Question: is that a good thing? The answer to that question is not: “Religion is not a factor and you are attacking Christianity”. And if you say “No, no, no, it’s not religion, it"s British colonialism” you are simply saying to one of the two tribes: “No peace, get back to the gun.”

Let’s see how we frame this in the most simple terms.

I would not blaim British Colonialism however, it would seem President Obama does have a history steeped in anti-colonial feeling himself per his father from Kenya:

kenyapolitical.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-senior-untold-story.html

My contention is that it is wrong to scapegoat religion if to Obama, Northern Ireland has a somewhat similar background to his ancestral land of Kenya in being colonialized by the British.

So, why criticize religion or bring up colonialism, hence, his statements were divisive.

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The debate will always be is it really about religion? Or is it about a foreign occupation even if it is now entrenched in history? And yes, we should get along now as many of us sit on land that was colonialized or occupied in the past but I’m not sure a purpose is served that seems to blame the difference on religion and to bring schools into the equation. There is a fine line here. The separate schools are a result of the foreign occupation no matter how far back you go.

The Scots were basically Catholic when centuries ago, the English invaded them. This was not about the English and Scottish being of 2 different faiths.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Let’s see how we frame this in the most simple terms.

I would not blaim British Colonialism however, it would seem President Obama does have a history steeped in anti-colonial feeling himself per his father from Kenya:

kenyapolitical.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-senior-untold-story.html

My contention is that it is wrong to scapegoat religion if to Obama, Northern Ireland has a somewhat similar background to his ancestral land of Kenya in being colonialized by the British.

So, why criticize religion or bring up colonialism, hence, his statements were divisive.

---

The debate will always be is it really about religion? Or is it about a foreign occupation even if it is now entrenched in history? And yes, we should get along now as many of us sit on land that was colonialized or occupied in the past but I’m not sure a purpose is served that seems to blame the difference on religion and to bring schools into the equation. There is a fine line here. The separate schools are a result of the foreign occupation no matter how far back you go.

The Scots were basically Catholic when centuries ago, the English invaded them. This was not about the English and Scottish being of 2 different faiths.

Yes, I’m not quite sure I follow you still. OK I can believe Obama is against colonialism (most of us in the West are, I suppose). Why would that make him anti-religion, or anti-Christian or whatever? I think you are seeking reasons that don’t exist. The idea of integrated education is not to attack religion, it is simply to try to prevent young people in Northern Ireland growing up with next to no contact with those from the other tradition. If you wish to say those traditions and separate schools come from “foreign” occupation by all means say so. That doesn’t affect the fact that the separation occurs, between two communities which identify themselves and each other by religious labels: labels which carry them through separate schools into separated communities.
Incidentally, your last paragraph is at best misleading. The Scots became Protestant as part of the European Reformation: there was no English invasion involved. The Scots Confession was passed by an independent Scottish Parliament in 1560. Within 50 years there was a Protestant Scottish king on the English throne.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Perhaps you should actually read the statement before making inaccurate claims about it.

I can’t stand the man, but it’s completely obvious that:

1. he referred to Catholic and Protestant schools, so the “he’s attacking only Catholics” line is total hogwash; and
2. he’s talking about the overall, longstanging separation between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

Yeah if anyone bothered trying to interpret his remarks in anything BUT the most vicious manner possible, I think that’s the obvious conclusion. He wasn’t calling for an end to “Catholic” or “Protestant” schools, he was lamenting the strife caused by religious tension. As a guy that’s never been a fan of Obama, neither then nor now, it amazes me how much effort the forumites here will put into being uncharitable towards anything and everything he says. Amazes.

 

[JimG]

John Stuart Mill said this about government schools:

“A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another, and the mold in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation.”

No, I would think that neither party in this case is or ought to be comfortable with turning over the education of their children to the government.

 

[manualman]

Yes, I’m not quite sure I follow you still. OK I can believe Obama is against colonialism (most of us in the West are, I suppose). Why would that make him anti-religion, or anti-Christian or whatever? I think you are seeking reasons that don’t exist. The idea of integrated education is not to attack religion, it is simply to try to prevent young people in Northern Ireland growing up with next to no contact with those from the other tradition. If you wish to say those traditions and separate schools come from “foreign” occupation by all means say so. That doesn’t affect the fact that the separation occurs, between two communities which identify themselves and each other by religious labels: labels which carry them through separate schools into separated communities.

This is a rather one-sided and self serving explanation. It ignores the basic reality that one of the major bones of contention was that the historic British occupation of Ireland included brutally repressive efforts to obliterate catholicism and keep the stubborn fools who refused to convert in abject poverty eternally. So you’re going to have to forgive us when we get a bit testy when we are told that the solution to the problem is to give up our unique identity and allow the state to control the education and formation of our children apart from the faith that we’ve fought so long to preserve.

It’s basically the SAME message the 19th century Brits told us: “Quite with the obstinate popery and things will get better for you.” Thanks, but no thanks.

Mind you I’m only 25% Irish ancestry and it was my great grandmother that came from the old country. So I’d figure the local catholics there are probably about 4 times as ticked off as I am about these comments.

 

[Picky_Picky]

This is a rather one-sided and self serving explanation. It ignores the basic reality that one of the major bones of contention was that the historic British occupation of Ireland included brutally repressive efforts to obliterate catholicism and keep the stubborn fools who refused to convert in abject poverty eternally. So you’re going to have to forgive us when we get a bit testy when we are told that the solution to the problem is to give up our unique identity and allow the state to control the education and formation of our children apart from the faith that we’ve fought so long to preserve.

It’s basically the SAME message the 19th century Brits told us: “Quite with the obstinate popery and things will get better for you.” Thanks, but no thanks.

Mind you I’m only 25% Irish ancestry and it was my great grandmother that came from the old country. So I’d figure the local catholics there are probably about 4 times as ticked off as I am about these comments.

Oh, look, let’s run through the history if you really want. I can make a shot at justifying English/Scottish/British policy in Ireland over the past 800 years if you like, but I’d really rather not, my heart isn’t in it. The history isn’t your problem, it’s the weight on the shoulders of the people who live there: leave it be, it’s bad enough already.
As to self-serving, well where did you get that from? Self-serving to me would be if Britain no longer had to subsidise NI so heavily, if British soldiers no longer had to die for public order in NI, if my very close relatives in the armed forces were not likely to be the target at any minute of the latest splinter of the IRA, if my friends who were within inches of death in the London bombings no longer face that threat. Don’t give me self-serving: what do you know about it? Why do you think the British government didn’t manage to get out of Ireland a hundred years ago when it tried? We’re attempting to prevent civil war, we in Britain and our close friends in the Republic, so don’t play St Patrick’s Day games with me.
As to your points about how much the Catholic faith means to its holders in terms of their identity, I agree with you absolutely. If it didn’t matter, the difference in faith wouldn’t also be a difference in communities. No one is trying to take it away. They are trying to save the lives and futures of its children. You’re 25 per cent (or is it 12.5 per cent?) Irish? Ask your distant relations a few thousand miles to the east. I suspect they may agree with me rather than with you.

 

[BroomWagon]

Oh, look, let’s run through the history if you really want. I can make a shot at justifying English/Scottish/British policy in Ireland over the past 800 years if you like, but I’d really rather not, my heart isn’t in it. The history isn’t your problem, it’s the weight on the shoulders of the people who live there: leave it be, it’s bad enough already.
As to self-serving, well where did you get that from? Self-serving to me would be if Britain no longer had to subsidise NI so heavily, if British soldiers no longer had to die for public order in NI, if my very close relatives in the armed forces were not likely to be the target at any minute of the latest splinter of the IRA, if my friends who were within inches of death in the London bombings no longer face that threat. Don’t give me self-serving: what do you know about it? Why do you think the British government didn’t manage to get out of Ireland a hundred years ago when it tried? We’re attempting to prevent civil war, we in Britain and our close friends in the Republic, so don’t play St Patrick’s Day games with me.
As to your points about how much the Catholic faith means to its holders in terms of their identity, I agree with you absolutely. If it didn’t matter, the difference in faith wouldn’t also be a difference in communities. No one is trying to take it away. They are trying to save the lives and futures of its children. You’re 25 per cent (or is it 12.5 per cent?) Irish? Ask your distant relations a few thousand miles to the east. I suspect they may agree with me rather than with you.

I commend PickyPicky for being extraordinarily patient, kind and generous in posts. To an extent, I don’t want to and didn’t mean to derail into a discussion on the history of that area of the world. I remember when the Queen went to Ireland Republic a few years ago to an overwhelmingly warm reception.

Just at the same time, it is easy to reflect on the President’s statement and see a sort of “scapegoating” of actually, Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic. It is easy to say “You all need to look into each other and not be divided in society” rather than what can be seen as implying Catholic and Protestant Schools.

Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson sing “Ebony and Ivory”, what if Pres. Obama claimed music tastes separated blacks and whites?

I think that is the problem with the “school” remark, school students may be in school 6 to 8 hours a day, but it’s not their whole life.

 

[Picky_Picky]

I commend PickyPicky for being extraordinarily patient, kind and generous in posts. To an extent, I don’t want to and didn’t mean to derail into a discussion on the history of that area of the world. I remember when the Queen went to Ireland Republic a few years ago to an overwhelmingly warm reception.

Just at the same time, it is easy to reflect on the President’s statement and see a sort of “scapegoating” of actually, Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic. It is easy to say “You all need to look into each other and not be divided in society” rather than what can be seen as implying Catholic and Protestant Schools.

Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson sing “Ebony and Ivory”, what if Pres. Obama claimed music tastes separated blacks and whites?

I think that is the problem with the “school” remark, school students may be in school 6 to 8 hours a day, but it’s not their whole life.

You are very kind, and I understand your point exactly. We differ in our judgement, perhaps. Let us hope the people on the spot find the right answer.

 

[Picky_Picky]

John Stuart Mill said this about government schools:

“A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another, and the mold in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation.”

No, I would think that neither party in this case is or ought to be comfortable with turning over the education of their children to the government.

Haha! Nice one! Bringing JS into the debate is horribly unfair because I would pay a considerable amount not to be found disagreeing with him! On the other hand, isn’t he by implication opposing education in the hands of a priesthood, too?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Anywhere.

And, for that matter, what freaking good did his comments in Ireland serve? They stirred up a hornet’s nest, that’s all, in a country where he had exactly zero right or need to weigh in at all. Our illustrious American Emperor just likes to hear himself talk.

I’ve seen paper bags that were more diplomatic than No-Bama.

The hornets nest is here in this forum, not in Northern Ireland. “zero right or need” is nonsense. Senior American politicians have played valued roles in the peace process and they are entitled and expected when in N I to push the process along.

 

[manualman]

As to self-serving, well where did you get that from? Self-serving to me would be if Britain no longer had to subsidise NI so heavily, if British soldiers no longer had to die for public order in NI, if my very close relatives in the armed forces were not likely to be the target at any minute of the latest splinter of the IRA, if my friends who were within inches of death in the London bombings no longer face that threat. Don’t give me self-serving: what do you know about it? Why do you think the British government didn’t manage to get out of Ireland a hundred years ago when it tried? We’re attempting to prevent civil war, we in Britain and our close friends in the Republic, so don’t play St Patrick’s Day games with me.
As to your points about how much the Catholic faith means to its holders in terms of their identity, I agree with you absolutely. If it didn’t matter, the difference in faith wouldn’t also be a difference in communities. No one is trying to take it away…

Whoa, nobody is attacking you or the sincerity/decency of UK Northern Ireland policy in the last half century (much further than that, I’ve got big problems). And nobody is “playing games” with you. Look at what Obama said, that’s the issue. He’s claiming that the existence of catholic schools, which are a crucial part of passing on the faith in a secularized culture, are a part of perpetuating the problem. This is roughly akin to a white southern president telling American black people that what they need to do is abandon their degenerate music and learn to speak properly if they want to reduce racial tensions. It’s ignorant, inflammatory and condescending. No Mr. president, the solution to the tensions is NOT for us to surrender our independent identity and values and turn over our kids to the state for education. That’s precisely what we’ve resisted for centuries and we’re not stopping now.

What’s REALLY needed is for people to respect one another’s human dignity, which happens to be a virtue explicitly taught in the schools Obama thinks shouldn’t exist. And if my distant relatives agreed with you rather than me, they wouldn’t be sending their kids to the local catholic school, they’d be clamoring for homogenized state schools. But they’re not, so your claim that they’re on you side in this matter is baffling.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Whoa, nobody is attacking you or the sincerity/decency of UK Northern Ireland policy in the last half century (much further than that, I’ve got big problems). And nobody is “playing games” with you. Look at what Obama said, that’s the issue. He’s claiming that the existence of catholic schools, which are a crucial part of passing on the faith in a secularized culture, are a part of perpetuating the problem. This is roughly akin to a white southern president telling American black people that what they need to do is abandon their degenerate music and learn to speak properly if they want to reduce racial tensions. It’s ignorant, inflammatory and condescending. No Mr. president, the solution to the tensions is NOT for us to surrender our independent identity and values and turn over our kids to the state for education. That’s precisely what we’ve resisted for centuries and we’re not stopping now.

What’s REALLY needed is for people to respect one another’s human dignity, which happens to be a virtue explicitly taught in the schools Obama thinks shouldn’t exist. And if my distant relatives agreed with you rather than me, they wouldn’t be sending their kids to the local catholic school, they’d be clamoring for homogenized state schools. But they’re not, so your claim that they’re on you side in this matter is baffling.

Firstly I apologise if I over-reacted: it can be a little frustrating, as I am sure you will understand, to be told by one-hundredth part Irish four thousand miles away on the basis of two pints of Guinness a year how we should be dealing (we being UK and Ireland) with this difficult and dangerous situation.
In my view segregated education is part of the problem. Nobody among the peace-makers is asking for either community to surrender its independent identity and values - or even to turn their kids over to the state for education (although I assure you that isn’t too bad!) But the churches and the education authorities could look for a way to bring the communities together within the education system. Would that be too evil?

 

[manualman]

…But the churches and the education authorities could look for a way to bring the communities together within the education system. Would that be too evil?

Yes, that’s asking too much. Just because you don’t see the inherent value of a uniquely catholic education doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

But I’d heartily agree with taking athletics away from school identity and requiring homogenization there instead. Surely if kids are football buddies, they’re less likely to end up enemies? And I’m far less persuaded that we need catholic athletics than that we need catholic education. Good start?

 

[Picky_Picky]

Whoa, nobody is attacking you or the sincerity/decency of UK Northern Ireland policy in the last half century (much further than that, I’ve got big problems). And nobody is “playing games” with you. Look at what Obama said, that’s the issue. He’s claiming that the existence of catholic schools, which are a crucial part of passing on the faith in a secularized culture, are a part of perpetuating the problem. This is roughly akin to a white southern president telling American black people that what they need to do is abandon their degenerate music and learn to speak properly if they want to reduce racial tensions. It’s ignorant, inflammatory and condescending. No Mr. president, the solution to the tensions is NOT for us to surrender our independent identity and values and turn over our kids to the state for education. That’s precisely what we’ve resisted for centuries and we’re not stopping now.

What’s REALLY needed is for people to respect one another’s human dignity, which happens to be a virtue explicitly taught in the schools Obama thinks shouldn’t exist. And if my distant relatives agreed with you rather than me, they wouldn’t be sending their kids to the local catholic school, they’d be clamoring for homogenized state schools. But they’re not, so your claim that they’re on you side in this matter is baffling.

And as to your relations - believe me, I’m serious - ask them.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Yes, that’s asking too much. Just because you don’t see the inherent value of a uniquely catholic education doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

But I’d heartily agree with taking athletics away from school identity and requiring homogenization there instead. Surely if kids are football buddies, they’re less likely to end up enemies? And I’m far less persuaded that we need catholic athletics than that we need catholic education. Good start?

If you believe that is too much then either you do not really understand the problem or, and perhaps this is it, we are culturally too far apart. I would put those children’s safety from bomb and bullet first.

That’s my lot. Come over and visit your relatives some time. Even Catholicism has an interestingly different flavour over here. And the Guinness is good. Peace to you.

 

[manualman]

And as to your relations - believe me, I’m serious - ask them.

Too small a sample size (I’m aware of ONE anymore and she’s elderly!)

But if you ask around, you’ll find that among catholics loosely attached to their faith you’ll find non-interest either way. There ARE a lot of those around, it’s true. Among catholics that actually attend mass weekly, go to confession more than once a year and have so little dust on their bible that you can actually read the title through it… They care. You may be right about the relative numbers of each those. These are sad times for the faith.

 

[manualman]

If you believe that is too much then either you do not really understand the problem or, and perhaps this is it, we are culturally too far apart. I would put those children’s safety from bomb and bullet first.

That’s my lot. Come over and visit your relatives some time. Even Catholicism has an interestingly different flavour over here. And the Guinness is good. Peace to you.

You’ve hit the nail on the head on our differences of approach. Since you state that you have no religion, it’s hard for you to comprehend why anybody would place such a thing at the center of their lives. On this side of the gap, we recognize that it isn’t faith that caused the troubles, it was the abandonment of it in favor of greed, envy, resentment, bitterness and/or rage. Those things come from innate human fallenness, not faith or doctrine.

In any sense, there’s not enough Irish left in me to appreciate Guinness. I DO love Bass though…

 

[Nordar]

Default Re: Obama calls for end of Catholic Schools in Nothern Ireland

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Being a Catholic raised in the UK and went to Catholic school I would like to tell Obama First, that has been the practice in UK for generations in Ireland and Scottland there is absolutely no problem with it.
Secondly Obama you. need to seriously mind you own business.

Third! Is it your mission to tick of a lot of people especially people from other Nations.?
Because Mr Obama you sure made a lot of people in Ireland and Scotland pretty steamed.
Forth! You need to step up to the plate and worry about the fact that your Nation is in big trouble and forget what you think other nations should do.

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Behold Jesus Beholding you and smiling!

 

[Picky_Picky]

You’ve hit the nail on the head on our differences of approach. Since you state that you have no religion, it’s hard for you to comprehend why anybody would place such a thing at the center of their lives. On this side of the gap, we recognize that it isn’t faith that caused the troubles, it was the abandonment of it in favor of greed, envy, resentment, bitterness and/or rage. Those things come from innate human fallenness, not faith or doctrine.

In any sense, there’s not enough Irish left in me to appreciate Guinness. I DO love Bass though…

Agreement at last! I prefer Bass, too!

Press on. Good luck.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Being a Catholic raised in the UK and went to Catholic school I would like to tell Obama First, that has been the practice in UK for generations in Ireland and Scottland there is absolutely no problem with it.
Secondly Obama you. need to seriously mind you own business.

Third! Is it your mission to tick of a lot of people especially people from other Nations.?
Because Mr Obama you sure made a lot of people in Ireland and Scotland pretty steamed.
Forth! You need to step up to the plate and worry about the fact that your Nation is in big trouble and forget what you think other nations should do.

Oh my, here we go. You tell him, mate. From NY. Just don’t pretend you speak for those of us eastwards of the Pond.