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Lea101
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? I don’t think anyone on CAF denies why families are breaking apart. We just don’t accept your hypothesis that feminism was all bad, or the secular’s hypothesis that it was all good.
Using most of the MGTOW Philosophy in choosing the right women?
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Lea101
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I was pointing out that good Catholics fit for marriage are slim in general.
A woman who is already counter cultural in her views about marriage, birth control, sex etc would not magically cave in because of the divorce culture.
Nobody is forcing you to get married. Given your views, it would be both yours and women’s benefit if you stay away. No disagreement there.
But rather, the mgtow philosophy for Catholic men is pretty silly given that women who stick to Catholic teaching are still going to be rare and will still be rare even if they change all the divorce laws tomorrow.
Ie your problem isn’t divorce laws, but the culture conflicting with our faith (which mgtow supports, given its support for pornography and pre marital sex, objectifying language etc obviously)
A woman who is already counter cultural in her views about marriage, birth control, sex etc would not magically cave in because of the divorce culture.
Nobody is forcing you to get married. Given your views, it would be both yours and women’s benefit if you stay away. No disagreement there.
But rather, the mgtow philosophy for Catholic men is pretty silly given that women who stick to Catholic teaching are still going to be rare and will still be rare even if they change all the divorce laws tomorrow.
Ie your problem isn’t divorce laws, but the culture conflicting with our faith (which mgtow supports, given its support for pornography and pre marital sex, objectifying language etc obviously)
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TheLittleLady
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Woah. There are many kinds of parishes around the world, but, there is not a Catholic parish that encourages people to break their marital vows. To suggest that there is, frankly it is a level of scandal that needs to be called out.
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Xantippe
Guest
Those are excellent points.
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Xantippe
Guest
Question: If US law is supposedly so favorable to divorcing wives, why are so many babies born outside wedlock today? (We have something like 40% of US babies born outside of marriage.)
Surely, if women are eager to get the most out of men and divorce is super lucrative, surely those women would be trying harder to have children in wedlock and then and only then divorcing?
Are women just bad at this? Or is the truth that it isn’t actually significantly more lucrative to marry and divorce a low-income man?
Related: divorce rates are a lot lower for high-income households. So, paradoxically, the more money a wife would get from divorcing a guy, the less likely she is to divorce him.
Weird!
(If you page down, there’s a graphic showing that the highest income households have 51% lower divorce rates than the lowest income households.)
Surely, if women are eager to get the most out of men and divorce is super lucrative, surely those women would be trying harder to have children in wedlock and then and only then divorcing?
Are women just bad at this? Or is the truth that it isn’t actually significantly more lucrative to marry and divorce a low-income man?
Related: divorce rates are a lot lower for high-income households. So, paradoxically, the more money a wife would get from divorcing a guy, the less likely she is to divorce him.
Weird!
(If you page down, there’s a graphic showing that the highest income households have 51% lower divorce rates than the lowest income households.)
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edwest211
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Stop it, OK? If anyone thinks this approach to women is a good one, forget it. Forget marriage.
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edwest211
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Real life is real. This abstract ‘what if’ has no purpose. If a man meets someone he wants to marry, both should be close together as far as beliefs, goals and expectations. You are marrying a real person not an article you read somewhere. Every woman I dated was unique.
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Edmundus1581
Guest
It’s even more dangerous for a man to have a long term relationship and children with a woman than it is to marry her, but that’s not the question here. We are assuming that we are all Catholics and the first is not even an option.
We are discussing the prospect of Catholic marriage for a man, but not the idealist view rather the realistic one that a good Catholic bride can change and if she does then he’s in deep doo-doo. As Z pointed out, if that happens there’s nothing binding her to any of what they promised each other. Even the Church and parishes are lax in this.
You all make good points about the difficulties facing good Catholic women who do intend to honour their marriage vows, but you can’t expect men to not think that any marriage comes with life-and-death risk. Men should disregard the traditional expectation that they are under any obligation to make themselves available for marriage, and take advantage of the fact that time is on their side.
That’s a good article though and has some interesting stats.
Lastly, pornography (and other anti-Catholic teaching) is much less integral to MGTOW than abortion is to feminism. Given the ease with which feminists here say “but I’m not in favour of abortion” it’s quite surprising that they lump all MGTOWs together. Even secular MGTOWs eschew pornography and the movement has no political or financial ties, unlike feminism with abortion.
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Xantippe
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I thought we were discussing the general social situation?
Because if we’re not, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to discuss any stuff that is not an option for a practicing Catholic.
Marriage is a life-and-death issue, even setting aside divorce. Pregnancy and childbirth are still dangerous, babies are frequently lost to miscarriage and stillbirth, lots of babies are born with special needs, including disabilities that will impose life-long obligations on the parents, or disabilities are acquired later in life by children. Furthermore, serious illness and disability can happen to either spouse and are eventually a near certainty.
There’s no safe version of marriage and parenthood. Anybody who wants complete safety shouldn’t get married or have children.
Only if they are improving in some respect.
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ewohdrol
Guest
How is it more dangerous for a man?
Let’s be real. It is much easier for a man to walk away than a woman. How many single fathers do you see compared to single mothers?
Any many men simply do not pay child support. Especially those that own their own businesses where it is easy to divert money elsewhere.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
There are more factors than “how much money a wife would get”.
Google will bring you a ton of articles and studies that show the #1 reason couples fight is money. There is less stress over finances when there is plenty of money. Basic common sense.
A relationship therapist breaks down the 10 most common fights couples have
Rachel Sussman, a New York City-based marriage counselor, describes the most typical problems in relationships, from money management to sex.
www.businessinsider.com
I’ve known more couples who stay together because they cannot afford to divorce, and then in a few years they are happier than ever than I know couples where one divorced the other because of “how much money they would get”.
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Usagi
Guest
Yeah, I thought the question was innocent at first, but the OP responded to the initial pushback by going on a weird rant that suggests he’s already internalized a lot of manosphere ideas.
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edwest211
Guest
That sort of negative worldview won’t help anyone regarding any individual.
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edwest211
Guest
manosphere? Seriously?
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Usagi
Guest
That’s what they call it.
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edwest211
Guest
I’ve added it to my list of words and terms to never use, along with MGTOW.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
Red pill saved my life. Literally. I found out through the grapevine last year that the woman with whom I broke off a possible engagement years ago recently divorce raped the man she married after we broke up. No further details, but it’s as bad as they come. Bullet dodged. My Catholic upbringing never prepared me to properly vet a woman like her. Neither did my parents. Only the red pill helped me suss out the red flags. I was even criticized by some for letting her go. … smh … There but for the grace of God go I. I can never go back to the old blue pill mentality yet I still like women in general and still want to be married.
I have a date later today. Only nominally Catholic, maybe Catholic in name only, so I will have to figure that part out if I stay with her long enough. I’m ready to bond. But I keep my eyes wide open.
They are not a turnoff in my experience. Women want their (name removed by moderator)ut, to be sure, and I have no issue with that, but they usually like men to take the lead.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
This occurs much more often in Protestant and Evangelical churches that are more accepting of divorce in the first place. However I do know of one instance many years ago where an adulterous and abusive wife gaslit the parish priest into believing her husband was the evil one and the priest not only took her side in the counseling, he supported her kicking her husband out and supported the subsequent divorce. When the guy found out about much later how the parish priest had aided and abetted his ex-wife beyond the counseling sessions, he confronted the priest and filed a complaint with the diocese. But crickets … this was back when they were still mostly protecting the sexual abusers in the priesthood. Maybe now it would be different, I don’t know.
This isn’t to tar all priests, most of them of my acquaintance have been pretty good men. They will never say it publicly but many know well the nature of women as well as men for they have seen it all in their pastoral counseling. One priest confided to me that sometimes all one can do is pray for this family or that in crisis, that the personalities on either or both sides may be too toxic to overcome their differences. Separation can be counseled, but no more than that and their support of separation shouldn’t extend beyond that. Hope that clarifies.
This is my final contribution to the thread. Exit stage left. On to my date. This could be the one. Or not. Either way I will have a good time today.
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ewohdrol
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Zzyzx_Road
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Then you don’t like men to be leaders?
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