V for Vendetta (2006)

[masterjedi747]

1281:

I just wanted to say thanks for pointing out that fascism does not magically form out of adherence to conservative Christian values.

Of course it doesn’t. And nobody claimed that it did. Adherence to conservative Christian values is fine. Adherence to conservative social values, however, might not be, especially if it is taken to an extreme. But I’ll say it again: the corrupt government in this movie is not Christian. It might claim to be and even pretend to be based on Christian values (just like Hitler did), but it’s not. It does not act like a Christian government, and we can therefore conclude that it is not a Christian government, regardless of whatever it might claim.

MulusChristi:

From what I’ve seen above (Christianity leads to Fascism, etc), I suspect the latter is true.

Again, no one ever claimed that “Christianity leads to Fascism”. And properly understood, of course it doesn’t even come close to such a thing. Christianity is a religion. Fascism is an economic/social system. In this movie, what we have is a Fascist government that uses some sort of extreme/fundamentalist “Christian values” to justify everything that it does.

 

[masterjedi747]

Liberalsaved:

It also goes back into people talking about how certain things should never change. But that’s impossible.

Wait, I don’t want to get too far off topic, but…It is true that some things should/can never change. Morality, for example, flows from the immutable/unchangeable nature of God Himself.

Liberalsaved:

Jesus was an agent of change.

For His time period, yes, He was.
But change isn’t necessarily/always a good thing. In some cases, it might not be.

Liberalsaved:

I think if Jesus came back and encountered the rigid in-flexibility in the house that He built, He would be deeply saddened.

In the Catholic Church? I very much doubt it. In the thousands of other Christian denominations that we now have splintered across the globe? Yeah, probably. But I think He’d also be deeply saddened to see how many Christian denominations have gone way too far and completely abandoned even the most basic Christian traditions in the name of “change”.

 

[Liberalsaved]

masterjedi747:

Wait, I don’t want to get too far off topic, but…It is true that some things should/can never change. Morality, for example, flows from the immutable/unchangeable nature of God Himself.

For His time period, yes, He was.
But change isn’t necessarily/always a good thing. In some cases, it might not be.

In the Catholic Church? I very much doubt it. In the thousands of other Christian denominations that we now have splintered across the globe? Yeah, probably. But I think He’d also be deeply saddened to see how many Christian denominations have gone way too far and completely abandoned even the most basic Christian traditions in the name of “change”.

The Catholic Church isn’t exactly a beacon of ideas among the denominations.

What I am saying is, Jesus changed things so that progress was made in His time. 2,000 years later, the EXACT SAME methods don’t apply. There is an over-riding morality but there is also room for change. People just seem to think that because it was one way so long ago everything should always be that way. But are you saying that if Jesus decided to come back and institute another ministry today, He’d do it the exact same way He did it 2,000 years ago, before modern technology, before so many things that weren’t even dreams then? I doubt He would.

 

[wabrams]

Liberalsaved:

Free speech

Freedom of religion

Racial equality

Freedom of artistic expression

America

Conservative as mentioned earlier.

Liberalsaved:

Women’s rights

Which parts?

Liberalsaved:

Just to name a few.
I think you are under the impression that fascism is only fascism if you don’t like the rules.

Where did you get fascism from? I haven’t mentioned that. Maybe a Freudian slip on your part?

 

[Asking]

What do you all think about the connection made in the movie with the catholics of the gunpowder plot?

It kind of makes them look romantic/good

By the way, I am pretty sure the bishop must have been an Anglican.

 

[masterjedi747]

Liberalsaved:

The Catholic Church isn’t exactly a beacon of ideas among the denominations.

No…it’s definitely much more like a beacon of truth among the denominations.

Liberalsaved:

What I am saying is, Jesus changed things so that progress was made in His time. 2,000 years later, the EXACT SAME methods don’t apply.

What do you mean? What type of methods no longer apply? Can you give an example?

Liberalsaved:

There is an over-riding morality but there is also room for change. People just seem to think that because it was one way so long ago everything should always be that way.

I would tend to agree with you…but I’m still not 100% sure what you mean.

Liberalsaved:

But are you saying that if Jesus decided to come back and institute another ministry today, He’d do it the exact same way He did it 2,000 years ago, before modern technology, before so many things that weren’t even dreams then?

Ummm…I’ll say yes. Do you really think He didn’t know what His Church would be like in 2000 years? Of course He did. Besides, what about the way Christ established His Church do you think He would change if He were to do it today? All Christ really did was give us the sacraments and establish the Papacy…and I’m sure He’d do those exact same things all over again if He were to establish His Church today…they’re an integral part of what the Church is.

 

[rocklobster]

IMO, they really should’ve made a movie out of Alan Moore’s Watchmen miniseries. Now that would’ve rocked!

 

[bones_IV]

Liberalism in the sense of being pro-abortion, pro-gay, ect. That’s what I meant by saying liberalism is a sin.

 

[masterjedi747]

bones_IV:

Liberalism in the sense of being pro-abortion, pro-gay, ect. That’s what I meant by saying liberalism is a sin.

Alright. Then what you meant was perfectly fine. It’s just that what you said isn’t really correct. Liberals (in general) are not necessarily pro-homosexual or pro-abortion…that’s just they trend that they have (as a whole) taken up in our modern society, and it’s certainly worth fighting against. But go back to the founding of our country, and you’ll find that neither liberals nor conservatives were pro-abortion or pro-homosexual…it’s a relatively new phenomenon.

 

[1281]

MulusChristi:

Hi 1281,

We don’t seem to have many who agree with us here. I s’pose I’ll see it when I can check it out of the library for free.

I wonder whether there is any real philosophy in this movie, or just a sophomoric attempt to sound deep and philosophical. From what I’ve seen above (Christianity leads to Fascism, etc), I suspect the latter is true.

If Fascism ever comes to the US, it will be brought in by the Democratic Party, and it will persecute Christians and Jews. I think we are well on the way to THIS dystopia, see Canada.

Absolutely. I know I’m not perfect and I don’t like to be judgemental, but when I look at the Democratic Party and see what they espouse I can’t help it - its almost everything any Christian ought to be against.

I don’t know. I saddly have to agree with you. I don’t like it but it seems to be the truth!

-George

 

[Liberalsaved]

wabrams:

Conservative as mentioned earlier.

How do you define as conservative staging a revolution, taking over a country, opening up the venues of religious beleif, instituting one of the world’s then-few historical democracies, creating a free market…that’s the opposite of conservative. You’re really saying that liberal progressiveness is not responsible for giving blacks the vote? Come on now, there’s political rhetoric and then there is reality. All the things I listed are a result of progressive thinking, which is, political lines aside, a very liberal concept by the actual definition of the word.

 

[Libero]

Well I went to see the film today, and I thought it was great!!

I am so buying this when it comes out on DVD.

I am so pleased that it was set in London - finally there is a message about Britain.

I really liked the political messages behind it (and I am also suprised that they managed to attack the conservative party like that).

I am also pleased that at the end “V” managed to prove guns wrong.

To those who seem to be digging liberal politics - please, we have never really seen liberalism at its extreme - British politics are different, there is no dreaded liberalism - and if we are truthful, American politics are really just a different shade of blue (or at least the ones with a shot of getting into power).

Anywho - I simply liked this film - a good one for anyone who wishes to contemplate the freedom of our democracies.

P.S. To clear up earlier confussion, the bishop was definetely Catholic - he was referred to as “Father” during the film, however a number of factual errors annoyed me there:

1. Catholic Bishops are called “Your Excellency” not “Your Grace” - that is Archbishops.
2. Catholic Bishops wear pink not purple -

Of course none of my friends cared about that - one point that impressed me was that it actually got a group of teens discussing politics on the met ride back - a big debate regarding the monarchy - see how powerful the film is…

 

[Christus_Rex]

**I am also suprised that they managed to attack the conservative party like that). **
**
I am also pleased that at the end “V” managed to prove guns wrong.
**
**2. Catholic Bishops wear pink not purple - **

it actually got a group of teens discussing politics on the met ride back - a big debate regarding the monarchy

I’m not sure what you mean by the pink and purple? Are you saying Catholic bishops are all gay? (sorry if I’ve misunderstood you lol, I’ve read comments from some people that say things like this because all Catholic bishops are gay child molesters don’tcha know )

What did the film say about the Conservative Party and the monarchy? I’m intrigued because I don’t really know much about the film’s messages and as you’ve seen it you could tell me?

What did it say about guns?

Is “V” good or bad? Does he start off bad and end up good?

Thanks if you can clear these questions up! (I probably won’t see the film but I might rent it or borrow it from someone)

 

[Libero]

Christus Rex:

I’m not sure what you mean by the pink and purple? Are you saying Catholic bishops are all gay? (sorry if I’ve misunderstood you lol, I’ve read comments from some people that say things like this because all Catholic bishops are gay child molesters don’tcha know )

What did the film say about the Conservative Party and the monarchy? I’m intrigued because I don’t really know much about the film’s messages and as you’ve seen it you could tell me?

What did it say about guns?

Is “V” good or bad? Does he start off bad and end up good?

Thanks if you can clear these questions up! (I probably won’t see the film but I might rent it or borrow it from someone)

Defo not - pink rocks, it doesn’t say anthing about you!!

As a general rule - Catholic bishops wear pink like their sashes roung the waist - he was wearing purple (which is usually thought of as Anglican).

When it refers to the monarchy is when you see all the propoganda with “God save the queen” and the “High Chancellor’s” face on it (like the way they made it chancellor - I think that is a link to Hitler?) and also when they played the national anthem as the Chancellor came onto the chat show.

The Conservative party was (only very slightly) mocked by the fact that this lunatic chancellor was an avid member of the conservative party - you would have to have a very alert (perhaps too much so) immagination to pick up on this stuff…

I liked V, he was a sort of goody depending on your viewpoint (he was in my eyes) and even though he killed people, it wasn’t meaningless - there was something about the deaths that seemed sort of powerful - especially the one where this coroner died, it was really sad but very very meaningful, she said, before he let her die (peacefully) “Is it meaningless to say sorry” and he replied “never” - you may have to see it to appreciate it lol

Ultimately whether or not he is good or bad depends on your views and opinions on politics - he is effectively the modern Guy Fawkes - and he sort of puts Guy Fawkes on a hero status.

As for guns (V only ever fights with knives) at the end he is surrounded by armed soldiers who all have their guns aimed at him, and he claims “Lets fight then” to which the agent replies “Dont be stupid - we have guns” and then V says “you have bullets and the hope that when you have emptied the magazine I am not standing” - Then V takes about 70 bullets, and then he kills them all - not too nice but they were trying to kill him, and then there was me (an avid anti gun person) thinking “YAY - guns are feeble” - lol

Now whilst there is quite a bit of death (and this is coming from someone who hates killing and fighting - maybe even a pacifist?) it sort of has a message - not like the meaningless “Final Destination” which I was taken to go and see and was not impressed with…

I would recommend you rent it - if it aint your cup of tea just stop watching - if you are interested in politics (and would like to see what Britain would look like with the modern Hitler running it) then watch the fil - but take everything with a pinch of salt…

Phew

 

[Christus_Rex]

Defo not - pink rocks, it doesn’t say anthing about you!!
lol it just isn’t the most masculine colour though and its often used to stereotype someone as gay, hence people use it in the context I gave as an example. Don’t agree on the pink rocks though, I would rather die than wear it

As a general rule - Catholic bishops wear pink like their sashes roung the waist - he was wearing purple (which is usually thought of as Anglican).
got you now (you said about calling him"Father" - maybe he was High Anglican? The Church of England is linked with the state and Catholicism never will be).

When it refers to the monarchy is when you see all the propoganda with “God save the queen” and the “High Chancellor’s” face on it (like the way they made it chancellor - I think that is a link to Hitler?) and also when they played the national anthem as the Chancellor came onto the chat show.
**ok, not sure what’s wrong with “God Save The Queen”, it’s merely showing appreciation for our rightful Head of State (God Save Her)
the Chancellor seems a bit strange… and why would they play the national anthem just for him??? hmm (is it like he’s trying to become King?) **

The Conservative party was (only very slightly) mocked by the fact that this lunatic chancellor was an avid member of the conservative party - you would have to have a very alert (perhaps too much so) immagination to pick up on this stuff…
oook, was it a coalition government then? or was it a Conservative government? or were they trying to make out that Conservatives are Nazis?

As for guns (V only ever fights with knives) at the end he is surrounded by armed soldiers who all have their guns aimed at him, and he claims “Lets fight then” to which the agent replies “Dont be stupid - we have guns” and then V says “you have bullets and the hope that when you have emptied the magazine I am not standing” - Then V takes about 70 bullets, and then he kills them all - not too nice but they were trying to kill him, and then there was me (an avid anti gun person) thinking “YAY - guns are feeble” - lol
**oh ritey, I’m not really fussed about guns (I’d probably get one if they were made legal again) so ummm… yer sounds like a good scene to watch lol
**
Now whilst there is quite a bit of death (and this is coming from someone who hates killing and fighting - maybe even a pacifist?) it sort of has a message - not like the meaningless “Final Destination” which I was taken to go and see and was not impressed with…
**lol I’m not bothered by the death, I love gory action films

so is V trying to bring down this bad government then? I thought he was the dictator but the Guy Fawkes mask etc make sense if he’s trying to topple it… hence he’d be a goody?

and OFF TOPIC whats was your position in your debate on the monarchy?**

 

[Libero]

Oh I dont wear pink either - I couldn’t pull it off anyway (you have to have black hair - I have brown) which is why I’m cool with bishops wearing pink - as they wear it with black (the two coolest colours in combination)

It is possible he was Anglican (only problem is - I think - “Father” is an explicitly Catholic title) - the church didn’t seem Catholic - all other clues point to him being Anglican… I genuinely think that the film makers don’t know their facts hence the issues with title, colours, respect, church yard etc. Gees - they should have had me calling the shots when doing the religious bits…

The bit about the monarchy - they dont seem to play a part in it (this is confusing) I think it is possible that the monarchy have been removed (especially as throughtout the film it is all “England” rather than “Britain” or the “UK” - perhaps a republic is formed? The film is implying that the Chancellor really wants to be a monarch - he would love the unchallenged authority etc…

No it was a new party formed (strongly religious funnily enough) you never find out if he left the Conservatives or if he was kicked out - a little more history on the manic High Chancellor would have been good - but the film is long enough anyway - it is nearly 2 and a half hours…

And for guns - I wouldn’t get one - I would probably get CS spray or something, then use it incorrectly and still be attacked lol - PS It was a great scene!!!

LOL - I am not so much about them - they have to have meaning - wow I am such a looser

V is trying to restore freedom and democracy from a dictatorship - he is really the goody, and he is also really clever, listen to him - you’ll get quite a bit of good knowledge…

I like the monarchy - I wouldn’t go back to letting them be rulers, I like democracy more. But I would not get rid of them, I don’t want to be a Republic - I like having a history, and I also think that the Queen is a great Chief of State - better than a President (I think that the monarchy should have the powers it does now). I also think that the monarchy is good for the country in terms of tourism…

However, if Prince Harry became king and tried to seize power - I would back the government scrapping them (but that’ll never happen though)

 

[Christus_Rex]

Oh I dont wear pink either - I couldn’t pull it off anyway (you have to have black hair - I have brown) which is why I’m cool with bishops wearing pink - as they wear it with black (the two coolest colours in combination)
I don’t like it anyway, too girly for me lol

It is possible he was Anglican (only problem is - I think - “Father” is an explicitly Catholic title) - the church didn’t seem Catholic - all other clues point to him being Anglican… I genuinely think that the film makers don’t know their facts hence the issues with title, colours, respect, church yard etc. Gees - they should have had me calling the shots when doing the religious bits…
nah, lots of High Anglicans call their priests Father (why would you call a bishop “Father” anyway? That’s strannngggeee)

The bit about the monarchy - they dont seem to play a part in it (this is confusing) I think it is possible that the monarchy have been removed (especially as throughtout the film it is all “England” rather than “Britain” or the “UK” - perhaps a republic is formed? The film is implying that the Chancellor really wants to be a monarch - he would love the unchallenged authority etc…
oh ok

No it was a new party formed (strongly religious funnily enough) you never find out if he left the Conservatives or if he was kicked out - a little more history on the manic High Chancellor would have been good - but the film is long enough anyway - it is nearly 2 and a half hours…
oh ok

And for guns - I wouldn’t get one - I would probably get CS spray or something, then use it incorrectly and still be attacked lol - PS It was a great scene!!!
Never fear, I will come to your aid with my gun lol! I will have to watch that scene!

LOL - I am not so much about them - they have to have meaning - wow I am such a looser

V is trying to restore freedom and democracy from a dictatorship - he is really the goody, and he is also really clever, listen to him - you’ll get quite a bit of good knowledge…

I like the monarchy - I wouldn’t go back to letting them be rulers, I like democracy more. But I would not get rid of them, I don’t want to be a Republic - I like having a history, and I also think that the Queen is a great Chief of State - better than a President (I think that the monarchy should have the powers it does now). I also think that the monarchy is good for the country in terms of tourism…
lol I think we have the best system of government in the world - it’s also a back-up plan because if we ever did get a dictatorship the Queen has the power to remove the Government - maybe thats why it had been abolished in the film?

However, if Prince Harry became king and tried to seize power - I would back the government scrapping them (but that’ll never happen though)
lol

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

I liked this film i wouldnt say it was the greatest film i ever saw but i enjoyed it for the most part. The only complaint i have about the film is not the content but with the delivery. It seemed to lose its momentum occassionally and become dry and prosaic. The dialogue wax poetics about everything from British Politics, to art notwithstanding its prentensiousness it was refreshing to the ears. Especially the one liners such as:

“The people should not fear their government instead the government should fear the people.”

I dont believe the film “glorified” homosexuality perhaps it implied a tacit acceptance but i think glorify is too strong a word. In fact there were only two scenes throughout the whole movie were the issue of homosexuality was even brought up.

The Movie notwithstanding was written from a comic book character years ago has political overstones that sharply parrell that of the US. Unitary Executive? The War on Terrorism?? The Patriot Act? are just a few examples.

I think alot of people on this forum are missing the forest for the trees. Take for example when Natalie Portman’s character was imprisoned and how that was a testment of her overcoming her own fears. I thought that it was sublime when she went outside in the rain on the balcony.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

tangentially, i would like to add that there are tons of examples were liberalism is not a sin. Take for example Morris Dees a famous lawyer who single handly bankrupted the Klu Klux Klan. According to his autobiography he transitioned from being an active member of the mostly conservative Southern Baptist denomination to that of the Unitarian Universalist movement. In one of his most monumental cases he prosecuted a group of klan members for hanging a young black man. How is that a sin??

Dont take my word for it:

“THe liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that waterreth shall be watered also himself”

Proverbs 11:25

Also too according to Fascism’s founder, Benitio Mussallini, Liberalism is a far cry from Fascism

“The Fascist conception of life is a religious one…”

“Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual: fascism reasserts the right of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual.”

“Fascism is therfore OPPOSED to socialism.”

“Fascism has taken up an attitude of complete opposition to the docrtrine of liberalism**.”

These are all quotes from Mussolini himself from The Doctrine of Fascism.

I would type more but its almost 3 30 in the morning and i have an appointment tommorow. I hope my post were coherent or at the least understandable.

 

[MikeWM]

I quite enjoyed it too when I saw it last month, on a plane of all places. (I was somewhat surprised that a film that doesn’t follow the ‘official line’ on terrorism was shown on a plane - I guess it shows there are still free-thinking people out there, which is quite cheery really. I wonder if they were still showing it after August 10th?)

The fact that you are supposed to feel happy and exhilarated when St Stephen’s Tower (with Big Ben inside ) blows up… well, it’s interesting.

As for the fascism debate - it makes sense in many more ways to have a 2-dimensional approach to politics, like that at political compass (politicalcompass.org) Fascism can have some of the economic features of socialism, but it’s by no means the same animal. The real socialist party was the only party brave enough to vote against Hitler’s Enabling Act in March 1933 and speak out against it; the conservatives went along with him. If you think the NSDAP was socialist just because it had ‘socialist’ in the name, I guess you must think the ‘Democratic People’s Republic of Korea’ is a democracy!

Mike