VA Tech Shooting: What can we possibly do?

[Thekla]

From the BBC:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm

Britain averages 50 gun deaths per year and the US averages 30,000 per year. So the 35% increase in gun deaths in Britain is a pointless statistic when comparing it to the United States.

The United States has a population 5 times that of Great Britain. So if we had their gun death rate, we’d have 250 gun deaths per year. We overshoot (no pun intended) that number by 29,750 deaths.

There is something seriously wrong with our country. We need less guns, healthcare and a better mental health system because we are an armed and crazed nation.

 

[thecoach]

How practical and useful would it be for schools (all ages, from pre-school through college) to lock the doors of their classrooms once the class starts?

I would have stopped the young man from entering the classrooms. Yes, he still could have picked off people who were walking outside. But at least he couldn’t just walk in and kill a roomfull of people.

My husband’s reaction to this question is, “Do you want to live in a prison?”

I guess I don’t consider locked classrooms a prison.

As a school administrstor, one thing the campus did wrong was to not order a lockdown after the first shootings. There was noexcuse for him to be able to do it again two hours later. In the high school where I work, we had a fatal stabbing a few months back and caught the guy precisely because we locked down.

AS far as the why, many are in pain just like his. Society sometimes seems to be built on alientation. The collapse of the family and values also contributes to the violence we see. This nation really needs to heed the teachings of Holy MOther Church, for we saw here what liberal and subjective values produce.

 

[Cat]

I really appreciate that several of you think I could learn to use a gun in an hour.

You are talking to a person who had to ask her husband which one is the VCR and which one is the DVD player.

I’m not making that up.

So I would probably shoot my head off the first time I ever picked up a gun. Or shoot the head off the instructor.

I guess I didn’t make it clear in my post about guns. I have no objection to others carrying guns. My father has several rifles in his house (he lives in the country) and I grew up with them in the house. I believe firmly in the right to bear arms. I believe that if one of those students or teachers had been carrying a gun and been trained to use it correctly, then possibly many lives could have been saved.

For those who asked, I have had no experience whatsoever with any kind of weapons and will probably choose not to, unless someone invents the Star Trek phaser. You go right ahead. I’ll just watch.

Even though I support the right of others to own guns, I just don’t think I myself could do it. A wasp got into my house last summer. I left my house, called my husband on my cellphone, and he had to drive 35 miles home from work to kill the wasp for me before I would go back into my house.

So I guess I’ll be one of the ones shot if I’m ever in a massacre. Oh, well. At least they say that rapists don’t bother fat chicks.

 

[Jay74]

I really appreciate that several of you think I could learn to use a gun in an hour.

You are talking to a person who had to ask her husband which one is the VCR and which one is the DVD player.

I’m not making that up.

So I would probably shoot my head off the first time I ever picked up a gun. Or shoot the head off the instructor.

I guess I didn’t make it clear in my post about guns. I have no objection to others carrying guns. My father has several rifles in his house (he lives in the country) and I grew up with them in the house. I believe firmly in the right to bear arms. I believe that if one of those students or teachers had been carrying a gun and been trained to use it correctly, then possibly many lives could have been saved.

For those who asked, have had no experience whatsoever with any kind of weapons and will probably choose not to, unless someone invents the Star Trek phaser. You go right ahead. I’ll just watch.

Even though I support the right of others to own guns, I just don’t think I myself could do it. A wasp got into my house last summer. I left my house, called my husband on my cellphone, and he had to drive 35 miles home from work to kill the wasp for me before I would go back into my house.

So I guess I’ll be one of the ones shot if I’m ever in a massacre. Oh, well. At least they say that rapists don’t bother fat chicks.

I don’t think you should carry a gun if you cant handle it, but I’d really like for potential muggers to think you might have one.

 

[fin]

What can we possibly do?

If you study the profiles of the mass murderers (school and workplace shooters, not serial killers), they almost always share two common traits:

1. They were bullied and/or made fun of for a long time.
2. They suffered from depression or some other mental illness.

So it seems to me that since these traits are present in every school/workplace killer, we need to start with those two things and do something about them.

1. Take a hard stand against bullies in our schools from a very young age. All too often, teachers step back, stay out of the way, and encourage peer mediation" to work out the conflicts. This is nonsense. This is no way to deal with bullies.

Bullies need to be STOPPED by someone stronger than them. Teachers and others who work with children should NOT allow any bullying, and bullies should be REMOVED and relocated somewhere and dealt with firmly.

In my opinion, bullies are not killers themselves, but they bear the guilt for creating killers. It is never the bully who becomes a school killer, it is the bully’s VICTIM who kills in retaliation for all the humiliation of many years.

It is very hard–and I know from personal experience–to be made fun of day after day. Well-meaning adults try to teach children to “be proud of who you are” and "you’re special (even if you’re ugly or fat or poor or stupid or not athetic or nerdy).

This kind of “Self Esteem Training” doesn’t work. A skillful bully can totally dismantle the self-esteem of the most well-adjusted child.

Ladies, how many times have you been walking down the street, feeling good about yourself, and all of a sudden, some jerk yells out his car window, “WOOF WOOF!”

A little dog bark, and you feel like the ugliest woman on earth. Most of us shrug it off, but if it keeps happening day after day after day, and you can’t fix whatever it is in you that is causing men to say this about you, then you have been reduced to a pile of poop.

Names HURT TERRIBLY! Developing a thicker skin isn’t the answer. STOPPING THE BULLY is the answer.

And yes, I do think the bully needs to be dealt with in such a way as to re-train him/her not to be a bully. I’m not saying that they should be put in a chicken shack and beaten twice a day. My point is that we need to stop bullies BEFORE they create killers.

1. Pediatricians need to screen children for mental and emotional illnesses. Even many poor children in the U.S. receive examinations from doctors. From the very youngest agest, pediatricians and other medical personnel need to look for signs of depression and other disorders and recommend courses of treatment for these children.

I realize that mental and emotional illness in children is not well-researched. Well, it should be. We’ve seen too many “disturbed” children killing other children. It’s time that we tried to help those who are mentally ill rather than waiting until they blow up.

**I think it’s possible that those who become school and work killers were possibly bullied, but because of their mental/emotional illness, were unable to process that bullying and deal with it in a healthy way. So in my opinion, screening for mental illness goes hand in hand with stopping bullies. **

I so agree with you, wonderful reply. that’s why i keep on saying that it’s really sad, if the killer only knew God and how much he is loved.
from my other post:
i just want to know what made the killer do it, you know? he probably is shunned, or maybe a loner or ‘weirdo’ by choice. i don’t know. but this incident also reminds us to reflect about ourselves. most people are mad at him. but have we thought about the people around him? they, and we all need to reflect about ourselves, what are we doing wrong. are we being uncharitable, uncaring, unkind to others, especially the supposed ‘weirdos’ and ‘loners’ and the social pariahs?
that’s what really saddens me. if only someone could have prevented that. Maybe Cho, the killer didn’t feel loved or liked by anyone.
that is not to say that what he did was right, of course.

 

[Nohome]

As a school administrstor, one thing the campus did wrong was to not order a lockdown after the first shootings.

As a UNIVERSITY administrator, I believe it is foolish to even try to compare K-12 to a university setting. A large campus like VT is more of a small city than a big school. The students are adults, they will choose for themselves to obey or disregard a lockdown. Besides, it takes hours to lock down a large campus.

Remember too that the perpatrator was a VT student. He likely had keys to the residence hall and it is quite common for Seniors and student employees to have keys to many other buildings. The college students killed in Texas back in 1966 were outside. A lockdown would make them targets rather than protect them.

The fact is, you can’t plan for every contingency and it is very difficult to counter a threat that doesn’t care about their own lives. Play Monday morning quarter back if you care, but the only person to do something “wrong” at VT on Monday was one very disturbed student.

Nohome

 

[Thekla]

I really appreciate that several of you think I could learn to use a gun in an hour.

You are talking to a person who had to ask her husband which one is the VCR and which one is the DVD player.

I’m not making that up.

So I would probably shoot my head off the first time I ever picked up a gun. Or shoot the head off the instructor.

I guess I didn’t make it clear in my post about guns. I have no objection to others carrying guns. My father has several rifles in his house (he lives in the country) and I grew up with them in the house. I believe firmly in the right to bear arms. I believe that if one of those students or teachers had been carrying a gun and been trained to use it correctly, then possibly many lives could have been saved.

For those who asked, I have had no experience whatsoever with any kind of weapons and will probably choose not to, unless someone invents the Star Trek phaser. You go right ahead. I’ll just watch.

Even though I support the right of others to own guns, I just don’t think I myself could do it. A wasp got into my house last summer. I left my house, called my husband on my cellphone, and he had to drive 35 miles home from work to kill the wasp for me before I would go back into my house.

So I guess I’ll be one of the ones shot if I’m ever in a massacre. Oh, well. At least they say that rapists don’t bother fat chicks.

What a great post. It’s not an issue of all weapons or no weapons but an issue of which weapons and which clips and which individuals should be running around with them.

My cousins are deer hunters and every year they dress up in their outfits and pack coolers and go sit in trees waiting for some hapless deer to wander by so they can shoot it, dress it, and force company to eat it when we visit them. No problem.

It’s all the handguns and large clips and uzi-like guns that I see no reason for any of us to have. And really no standards for gun ownership other than you want one. Why are we making it so easy for spree killers? This time it was 32 people killed. Next time it’ll be 40 then 50 then 75 because someone will be out to break the previous record.

 

[Brendan]

Britain averages 50 gun deaths per year and the US averages 30,000 per year. So the 35% increase in gun deaths in Britain is a pointless statistic when comparing it to the United States.

The United States has a population 5 times that of Great Britain. So if we had their gun death rate, we’d have 250 gun deaths per year. We overshoot (no pun intended) that number by 29,750 deaths.

There is something seriously wrong with our country. We need less guns, healthcare and a better mental health system because we are an armed and crazed nation.

Actually, the UK needs the better healt care system, THEY are the ones with all the violent crime, not us.

From the UK Home Office report on violent crime for Sept 2004-Sept 2005

There were 2,420,000 reported violent crimes
Link Here

The lastest figures for the UK population are 60,609,153 (July 2006 est)

That gives a UK violent crime rate of 3992.8 per 100,000 persons.

The US crime data from the FBI for the same time period (2005, US reports on calendar year) are 469.2 per 100,000 persons.

Link Here

The US Statistics (which are calendar year based ) for 2005

So either the British are almost 9 times as violent as the American by nature, or those in America who choose to commit violent crimes are being deterred.

Which is it?

And that one is easy, they are being prevented by gun carrying civilians.

A 1994 study by Florida State University, they estimate that about 1.2 million to 2.4 million crimes are prevented each year by civilian use of firearms (not police, security guard or military).

Of those about 400,000 of these crimes were of a nature where the defender felt certain that they would not be alive if they did not have a gun present.

Here is the link to the study

guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

And here is an interview with Dr. Kleck, the Criminology Professor who was the primary author of the study

wagc.com/25mill.html

That’s 400,000 life threating crimes prevented by the fact that the victim had a gun.

Note that the victim didn’t have to actually pull the trigger. A violent ex-boyfriend leaves because dad comes down with the shotgun. A elderly lady scares off a mugger when she pulls her .380. A mom with a 9mm holds off an intruder until police arrive. All of these happened, and all were resolved by the use of firearms.

 

[Susanjane190]

Anyone is capable of evil acts. yet premeditation makes this person evil at his heart. Now, I pray and hope at the very last second, he repented and was saved. Yet, there are evil people and we know them by WHAT THEY DO. Hitler was evil because he chose to do evil acts without any ceasing and without any repentance. Stalin was the same and so was this VA killer.

Sorry, but I just flat think you are wrong. Evil exists, people fall prey to evil every single day…it is sad, it is spiritually devastating, yet it is also true. We need, imo, to stop acting like hell and satan are benign possibilities…we need to teach, and propogate the truth that hell and satan and his demons are all too real. We live in a world that does not want fire and brimstone teachings…too bad, that is reality and the VA kiuller proved the need for it.

I totally agree.

 

[Ender]

Thekla:

Britain averages 50 gun deaths per year and the US averages 30,000 per year.

I don’t believe that citing English statistics makes the case you think it does. There is much more at work here than is uncovered by simple comparison statistics. The Japanese (few guns) and the Swiss (lots of guns) don’t commit murder. That says something about the Swiss and the Japanese but nothing whatever about gun ownership.

England now has a higher rate than the US for **all **major crimes except murder and rape and increasingly guns are being used in their commission. In the four years following the handgun ban in 1997 the incidence of violent crime has more than doubled. You are now six times as likely to be mugged in London as in New York. Fifty three percent of burglaries in England occur while the occupants are at home compared with just thirteen percent in the US. The absolute ban on handguns has had little effective impact on the ability of criminals to procure them but a lot on their choice of victims.

The gap in the murder rates of the two countries has been narrowing for decades: from 8.7 times higher in 1981 to 3.5 times higher in 2002. The English believe that protecting the individual is the sole responsibility of the state almost to the point of outlawing self defense. This is the mindest behind most gun control laws: it is an argument between those who believe the state alone should protect us and those who believe that this is also an inalienable right of the individual.

In response to the question posed by this thread, the attack at the Appalachin School of Law in 2002 that was ended by armed students is one rather obvious alternative.

Ender

 

[Thekla]

From the UK Home Office report on violent crime for Sept 2004-Sept 2005

There were 2,420,000 reported violent crimes
Link Here

The lastest figures for the UK population are 60,609,153 (July 2006 est)

That gives a UK violent crime rate of 3992.8 per 100,000 persons.

The US crime data from the FBI for the same time period (2005, US reports on calendar year) are 469.2 per 100,000 persons.

I’m pretty sure that you are comparing the British Crime Survey with actual FBI statistics. Is that right? I can’t get your link to open.

 

[Thekla]

IThe gap in the murder rates of the two countries has been narrowing for decades

50 gun deaths compared to 30,000. They’ll catch up to us…oh wait, they won’t.

 

[Brendan]

I’m pretty sure that you are comparing the British Crime Survey with actual FBI statistics. Is that right? I can’t get your link to open.

The link is an Excel spreadsheet on the British Home Office website (Table 5.01 of the British Crime Survey). It opens in my Internet Explorer. You might have to download the file instead.

 

[MikeWM]

From the BBC:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm

That’s lovely. However, I’m not sure right now is the time for ‘academics’ in the USA to be telling us over here what to do about gun crime, if you catch my drift. Maybe some week when you haven’t just had a guy go nuts and slaughter 32 people with readily-available guns, eh?

We don’t want widespread gun ownership and we’re not going to have it and we’re happier and more alive that way.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

Britain averages 50 gun deaths per year and the US averages 30,000 per year. So the 35% increase in gun deaths in Britain is a pointless statistic when comparing it to the United States.

Also our gun deaths are almost always within gangs. That doesn’t make it better of course, but if you stay away from gangs or drugs, you pretty much stay away from guns. Our last (and pretty much our first) school massacre was in 1996. How many has the USA had since then?

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

THEY are the ones with all the violent crime, not us.

Are you comparing like with like here? I doubt the UK definition of a ‘violent crime’ is precisely the same as that of the FBI.

For example, for quite a few years our crime figures were vastly inflated because of people having their mobile phones stolen, or making up a story that their phone was stolen so as to get it replaced by insurance.

And that one is easy, they are being prevented by gun carrying civilians.

Rrrriiiight. That’s the only factor that affects crime rates. Sure.

Note that the victim didn’t have to actually pull the trigger. A violent ex-boyfriend leaves because dad comes down with the shotgun.

…And comes back and beats up the girl all the worse when dad goes out.

A elderly lady scares off a mugger when she pulls her .380.

…And then accidentally shoots herself in the foot, or shoots a passer-by in the excitement.

A mom with a 9mm holds off an intruder until police arrive.

…And so the next time he tries to rob a house, he’ll take a big gun himself, and possibly end up murdering someone, as opposed to just stealing some property.

Mike

 

[mary_bobo]

That’s lovely. However, I’m not sure right now is the time for ‘academics’ in the USA to be telling us over here what to do about gun crime, if you catch my drift. Maybe some week when you haven’t just had a guy go nuts and slaughter 32 people with readily-available guns, eh?

We don’t want widespread gun ownership and we’re not going to have it and we’re happier and more alive that way.

Mike

Mike, in many states it is not so easy to purchase a gun. Further, once one has a gun if they intend to use it they have to get a permit to carry. This involves taking a gun safety course, passing a range test, and then in the case of the state where I live, you are fingerprinted and your background is checked. Takes about six weeks before you get the permit. The problem in the VT incident was that Cho had been diagnosed with mental illness and the psychiatrist who examined him said that he was a danger to himself and to others. For reasons of privacy this was not reported to the authorities who have this info, so it did not show up when they backgrounded him.

I am not urging everyone to run out a get a gun. If there are no muggers and no deranged people running around where you are, I can see why you don’t have a gun. It does concern me when a government mandates that the people will not have firearms. If I wake up in the night and someone is in my house, I want to be able to protect myself. I travel a lot and stay in motels frequently. I am out early and late there to walk my dogs in designated areas. I want to be safe there.

Lastly, it would be impossible for the government to confiscate all the guns in this country. There is no way to keep guns from evil people. If they can’t buy one, they steal one. I realize that perhaps it is not gosh for us to advise you one guns, however you seem to feel free to criticize the US every chance you get. Doesn’t feel so good, does it?

Peace.

 

[Sir_Knight]

50 gun deaths compared to 30,000. They’ll catch up to us…oh wait, they won’t.

Is there something special about a person being killed by a gun over being killed with some other means? If a person is murdered, aren’t they equally dead no matter what means was used? I would think so. Therefore, I do not understand why you are merely focusing on “gun deaths” and not all murders.

And, as shown above, when you factor in all types of violent crimes, England is 7 times MORE violent. Why? Because the victim does not have a firearm to defend themselves with and the attackers know this. A gun places everyone on a level playing field.

What happens when you take a muscular 20-year old weightlifter and put them against a frail 70-year old in a wheelchair? The 70-year old in a wheelchair will be at the mercy of that 20-year old weightlifter. What happens if you give that frail 70-year old a gun? You’ve now placed them on a level playing field. What happens if the 20-year old also has a gun? They are still on a level playing field.

 

[MikeWM]

The problem in the VT incident was that Cho had been diagnosed with mental illness and the psychiatrist who examined him said that he was a danger to himself and to others. For reasons of privacy this was not reported to the authorities who have this info, so it did not show up when they backgrounded him.

I thought you didn’t need a background check in VT, just an immediate id-style check, like when buying a mobile phone?

In any event, if we’re saying that we all need guns to protect ourselves, then what about the poor mentally ill? Of course you don’t want mentally ill people carrying guns around, but how are they supposed to protect themselves? Or reformed criminals? Or children? Or people who don’t feel they can wield a gun, for whatever reason?

I am not urging everyone to run out a get a gun. If there are no muggers and no deranged people running around where you are, I can see why you don’t have a gun. It does concern me when a government mandates that the people will not have firearms. If I wake up in the night and someone is in my house, I want to be able to protect myself. I travel a lot and stay in motels frequently. I am out early and late there to walk my dogs in designated areas. I want to be safe there.

I understand and respect that, and when you have a society with so many guns already, it may even be the simplest answer. The USA and the UK are starting from very different points here, as you say:

Lastly, it would be impossible for the government to confiscate all the guns in this country.

Yes. You have loads. We have many many less, and it would be nice to keep it that way.

There is no way to keep guns from evil people. If they can’t buy one, they steal one. I realize that perhaps it is not gosh for us to advise you one guns, however you seem to feel free to criticize the US every chance you get. Doesn’t feel so good, does it?

I don’t mind a debate about whether gun ownership is a good thing or not - here or anywhere. I do think however that there is a time and a place for things. If we’d had a wind farm blow up and kill 32 people earlier this week, then no matter how much I support renewable energy, I wouldn’t choose this week to tell people in the USA that they ought to build a lot more wind farms! Equally I don’t think that when you’ve horrifically had 32 people slaughtered by legally-owned guns earlier this week, that it is really the time to be telling us that wide legal ownership of guns is a good solution for us. A time and a place. A debate for a less fraught time.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

What happens when you take a muscular 20-year old weightlifter and put them against a frail 70-year old in a wheelchair? The 70-year old in a wheelchair will be at the mercy of that 20-year old weightlifter. What happens if you give that frail 70-year old a gun? You’ve now placed them on a level playing field. What happens if the 20-year old also has a gun? They are still on a level playing field.

What if the 70-year old has arthritis and can’t pull a trigger? By the expectation that everyone will carry guns, it’s much more likely that 20-year old will be carrying one, putting the 70-year old in more danger.

Just like we shouldn’t be discriminated against by gender or skin colour or religion, we shouldn’t start discriminating against people who can’t use guns for whatever reason, and building a society where the expectation is that people carry guns does strongly discriminate against people incapable of doing so.

Mike