Vatican’s McCarrick report says Pope John Paul II knew of misconduct allegations nearly two decades before cardinal’s removal

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TMC said:
that Pope John Paul II had been informed that the then-bishop shared a bed with young men but decided nonetheless to app
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As a child in the 1960’sI knew about catholics sexual perverts. It was obvious that the code of silence was in effect.
There was a priest on utube who talked about the seminaries were sexual c corrupt in the 1950 s when he was training
 
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I also believe a high standard should exist…I do think we have made great strides in that regards, but obviously with the McCarrick report, we have more to do.

As an example, I reviewed 10 different lists of priests / clergy that have credible accusations made against them (you can find these on individual diocesan website)…what you find quite consistently is that the average age of those abusive priests are either dead or very old. Most incidents occurred prior to 2002 when the Church implemented reforms, however, there were some after (which is why i say the work is not done)

My point is this: The standard needs to be high, and it currently is high for incoming priests. (The statistics certainly show the bar was lower before the reforms). More can be done…but we need to solve for the problems where the data shows there are problems.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
many (though not all) victims perpetuate the pattern as adults.
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It’s not just that “not all” victims don’t perpetuate pattern, the overwhelming majority do not. Many also become protectors of children and advocates for those who were abused.
 
MikeInVA said:
How dismissive of the many good priests we have.
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It’s also true.

Just a bit of background: when I was converting and struggling with my sexuality, one of the first thoughts that came into my head was to become a priest or go into a monastery. I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s occurred to.
 
Monastic celibacy is just as important to Eastern Orthodoxy as it is to Catholicism, and in one form or another goes back to the earliest days of the Church… it’s intrinsic to Christianity in a way that a celibate priesthood isn’t. I don’t see it ever going away (even if we are ignoring dogmas concerning the supernatural vocation aspect here). I’m sorry these scandals have shaken you. I don’t think these are new problems… but there’s always been saints among the sinners as well. Even if celibacy was suddenly abolished, there are those who would choose it just the same… of this I have no doubt. A small minority, yes, but it would never go away even if it did institutionally.
…for that matter, many married people have gone years or decades without sex for this or that reason.
 
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If we abolish monasticism, our religion fundamentally changes. I don’t think I’m being dramatic by saying that. I’m sure the Orthodox would agree - and even wage war to defend it in their case ;).

Celibate diocesan priesthood is a different matter.

Marriage is also a disaster as an institution. Many abusive marriages. Many sexless marriages. Many emotionally wrecked marriages. Many loveless marriages. And half of them end up in divorce anyway in the West. People discern or rush into marriage for all the wrong reasons too. Why does no one call for an end to marriage? (Actually some do - I know people who oppose the institution on principle).

Now that I think about it… I see no evidence that problems in the priesthood or monasticism are proportionately greater than problems in marriage. My own marriage has been hell at times (and close to heaven at other times thankfully).

Let’s say half of all priests and half of all monks are emotionally wrecked, emotionally stunted, and sexually immature / immoral. I reject that stat, but let’s say it’s true. I don’t think that puts the priesthood in a worse category than marriage.
Half of all married people are probably unhappy / emotionally immature / sexually immoral in one way or another.

People are sick. People are sinners. Not saying there aren’t serious institutional issues to address across the board, and maybe reforming the diocesan priesthood so that more married men are ordained is a good idea… but I don’t see abolishing celibacy and monasticism and religious life altogether as a good solution.
 
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twf said:
If we abolish monasticism, our religion ceases to exist. I don’t think I’m being dramatic by saying that. I’m sure the Orthodox would agree - and even wage war to defend it in their case ;).
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I don’t disagree. But the issues are not helping and at the rate our abbey’s population is declining, the lack of vocations will kill it off just as effectively as any attempt to abolish it.

I could say a lot more but out of respect for my community I won’t post it on a public forum. I will say that they have had a few (too few) candidates of late that didn’t cut it. Young men with deep problems. To our abbey’s credit they turned them away before they could wreak too much havoc. One ended up in a monastery elsewhere and he washed out there as well. He was found to be a pedophile who thought the monastery would shelter him and keep him out of trouble. I met him when he was still at our abbey after he was told he wouldn’t be accepted. He was indeed strange. The monastery is much more careful with psychological testing these days.
twf said:
Let’s say half of all priests and half of all monks are emotionally wrecked, emotionally stunted, and sexually immature / immoral. I reject that stat, but let’s say it’s true.
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From a monk friend’s analysis, I can’t say the number is “half”, but it has been in the past “too many”. I do think they’re more careful selecting candidates these days, but I don’t see too many young men interested to begin with. We have a saying in French “là où est l’homme, est l’hommerie”. There’s no direct translation but roughly “where we find man, we find man’s foibles”. It is as true of monasteries as any other human endeavour.

As for marriage, yeah it can be hell or bliss. Crabby wife, crappy life… happy wife, happy life.
 
I think a lot of this is also regional. Vocations are up in some parts of the world and down in other parts. I think we all have a tendency to view the global Church through a local lens.

I am sure the African Church has many of its own problems… but I’ve been very impressed by the African priests I’ve met… their joy, their personal charisma, their endless stamina and energy, absolute commitment to the personal touch… I’m generalizing but that’s been my experience. And they’re often young to boot.

India always has a surplus of vocations… but then the non-Christian culture is extremely religious and has valued celibacy for millennia.
 
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I agree with Africa. I’ve spent a lot of time at Sant’ Anselmo in Rome, Benedictine HQ, home of the Abbot Primate, whom I know (I like to say I’ve never shaken the Pope’s hand but I’ve shaken the hand of someone who has shaken the Pope’s hand!). One of the monks told me that not that many years ago, there would be only one or two African monks there. Now, when I was there last year, about half were from Africa and they were all full of life. I was supposed to be there this year as well, but this stinking virus ruined our committee’s plans.

That monastery is a bit weird… the monks are not permanent. They have all been sent there to study by their respective communities, for 1-3 years. So they are all quite young. Just looking at the stalls gives you a clear indication of where the Church is thriving, and where it is struggling.

The situation here in N. America is, however, alarming.
 
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Agreed, but it begs the question; either JPII either knew about it or was asleep at the wheel. If he simply believed the lie or was fooled then that raises a theological problem which is for someone who should be filled with or in tune with the Holy Spirit as leader of the Church; how could such a persistent mistake be made regarding all the scandals going on below him? This is a problem that is hard to answer.

CT04
 
CLearthinking04 said:
Agreed, but it begs the question; either JPII either knew about it or was asleep at the wheel. If he simply believed the lie or was fooled then that raises a theological problem which is for someone who should be filled with or in tune with the Holy Spirit as leader of the Church; how could such a persistent mistake be made regarding all the scandals going on below him? This is a problem that is hard to answer.

CT04
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The Pope has the charism of infallibility when it comes to matters of faith and morals when he is intentionally engaging that charism. He is not impeccable…he is a sinner…he is human…and yes, he makes mistakes. I don’t see this as a theological problem, but a structural/management/ organizational problem. Even naivete could be a descriptor.
 
A married and celibate priesthood is the norm in the Eastern Church. I would argue that were it not for the rise of Islam, which reduced their numbers and the separation of East and West in the Great Schism that mandatory celibacy would not have taken root in the Western Church. The Eastern Fathers would have opposed it because it’s unbiblical. Celibacy is not a greater calling. It is a different calling. Jesus speaks very rarely about celibacy, but quite frequently about marriage. I’m Asexual and Aromantic, so sexual and romantic attraction is not an issue for me. Most people are Allosexual and Romantic and thus desire companionship. The Catholic Church has lost the gifts of many, many married men that would have been great priests and along with that it lost the gifts, service, and insight of their wives.
 
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I would agree but the magnitude of the problem is so huge a lot more than a few mistakes that we all make. (An JPII has always been my favorite Pope and a great man in many ways. It’s just mystifying how all this happened on his watch, I just can’t wrap my head around any of it.)
 
Also; these so called mistakes by high ranking church officials and the two previous Popes have lasting damage, I think about all the people, especially young people who are looking at this and want no part of the church as a result. This is major lasting damage driven by these mistakes. A horror actually when considering how many people’s souls may be lost as a result. So I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss JPII and other’ mistakes as “everyone makes mistakes” what then it is OK, we just need to forgive an forget. (forgive i suppose is required but forget, absolutely not).
 
glencor63 said:
A married and celibate priesthood is the norm in the Eastern Church.
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Understand, and realize its a different norm than the Western Church. Point taken.
glencor63 said:
Celibacy is not a greater calling. It is a different calling. Jesus speaks very rarely about celibacy, but quite frequently about marriage.
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Except there is no marriage in heaven…there is celibacy in heaven. And yes, Jesus did praise celibacy in Mt 19.
glencor63 said:
The Catholic Church has lost the gifts of many, many married men that would have been great priests and along with that it lost the gifts, service, and insight of their wives.
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Certainly good reasons, but also there are good reasons as I stated above. (There are some married Western priest…typically converts from Anglicanism…so its not 100%. A practice, not a dogma)
 
Well
While he was attending Mass in 1884 Pope Leo XIII reportedly had a vision and overheard a conversation between God and the devil, Satan. The conversation purported to be a request by Satan for the 75 to 100 years he needed in order to destroy the Catholic Church. God reportedly granted Satan’s request.
A number of stories about the vision have appeared over the years. Leo himself never spoke publicly or in writing about the incident.
One witness said the pope “ turned pale and collapsed as though dead" .
I believe it was also the origins of the St Michael prayer but I could be wrong.
 
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Sexuality is for companionship and reproduction. In heaven, we are completely united with God, the ultimate companion. There is no need to procreate because we are immortal. Propagating genes is irrelevant. Jesus never married because he had limited time and a specific mission on Earth, which was fulfilled and then he returned to his rightful place, the throne of God. There is no celibacy or marriage in heaven because there is no sexuality in heaven. Celibacy is when one experiences sexual attraction and chooses to abstain. People in heaven are closer to being like an Asexual, which is not celibacy, but an innate lifelong lack of sexual attraction to either gender. I am Asexual, not celibate. I do not fight sexual attraction. It is non existent. I believe Jesus was most likely Asexual too and not actually a Celibate by the true definition of the word. He was also Aromantic, not needing to pair bond with a mate and create a family.
 
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