Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[iloveangels]

Barbara Marx Hubbard:

barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/node/45

barbaramarxhubbard.com/site/blog/

overviewinstitute.org/BarbaraMarxHubbard-bio.htm

Intensely New Age. Not Christian at all, and in fact at odds with Christianity.

This is wacko territory, pure and simple. I’ll bet she’s making a LOT OF MONEY though.

 

[bellasbane]

Jesus started at Canann because His Mother asked him to. Not just any women, but His Mother.

Jesus referred to his mother as “woman”, which I find quite meaningful. She is certainly His Mother too.

I don’t see what that has to do with anything. Are you implying that the Church needs to change and that only women can tell? Because when it comes to some of the issues they’re talking about (women’s ordination, matters of sexuality), they are already settled. It doesn’t matter what these women think, it doesn’t even matter what men think (there’re groups of dissenting priests in Austria and Ireland), so this is not some gender issue.

Issues have been settled. It’s time for people to get that through their heads, no matter if they’re a woman or a man.

Are you implying that the Church never changes? That is is some fossilized dead thing? The Church is a living body - and that means it grows and develops in wisdom all the time. If that weren’t true, we wouldn’t need Church Councils.

Some issues are more settled than others. Saint Paul didn’t want people to marry or have children - but finally said, “Ok, if you must” - and he spoke directly with Jesus. Wow, talk about missing a crucial lesson. It’s a good thing his congregations wrote to him to complain, because none of us would be here today if they hadn’t.

Most men I know have masturbated at some point in their lives. Personally, I don’t see why that’s such a big deal, but according to the Church its as bad as having sex with a man. I’m just glad I’ve never felt the urge so I don’t have to worry about it.

The Council of Trent was big into anathemas. For example:

Canon 1. --If anyone says, that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood; or that there is not any power of consecrating and offering the true body and blood of the Lord, and of forgiving and retaining sins; but only an office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, or, that those who do not preach are not priests at all; let him be anathema.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT23.HTM

As far as I can tell, no anathema has been attached to the issue of women as priests. I’m no champion of the cause, but it seems to me that if the Pope really wanted to end all discussion on the topic once and for all, he’d declare it anathema like they did at Trent. A nice clear doctrinal statement. If that happens let me know.

 

[iloveangels]

Jason,
Thanks again for the links.
I read them all.

…

Do you think they have or will?
Wonder if they have or will publish the full report.

There was also a VERY interesting keynote address at the LCWR, I believe in 2007, by a Laurie Brink OP. It was about the state of women’s congregations and it was placed on the internet some time later. I read it quite a while ago. It was pretty shocking and I’ve heard that played a role in this too. It’s actually more shocking than the new age lady because it addresses the sisters directly and tacitly acknowledges the condition some of them are in.

It spoke specifically of the sisters “moving beyond the Church,” and “moving beyond Christ” and becoming “post-Christian.” It also gave an overview of strategies for coping with the situation they were in as Post-Christian sisters, a status many sisters are in. It likened them to Hagar in the desert and spoke of civil incorporation, going non-canonical and ways to get the money and run, etc. It was pretty direct and also pretty shocking.

It’s been removed from the LCWR site now.

 

[bellasbane]

Actually, Jesus started at Cana, a village; Canaan is a large general area corresponding to the Levant.

Thanks for the correction! My bad for mixing up the two words.

 

[iloveangels]

As far as I can tell, no anathema has been attached to the issue of women as priests. I’m no champion of the cause, but it seems to me that if the Pope really wanted to end all discussion on the topic once and for all, he’d declare it anathema like they did at Trent. A nice clear doctrinal statement. If that happens let me know.

He did.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

I’m surprised you don’t know this if you’re Catholic. This happened years ago.

 

[bellasbane]

There was also a VERY interesting keynote address at the LCWR, I believe in 2007, by a Laurie Brink OP. It was about the state of women’s congregations and it was placed on the internet some time later. I read it quite a while ago. It was pretty shocking and I’ve heard that played a role in this too. It’s actually more shocking than the new age lady because it addresses the sisters directly and tacitly acknowledges the condition some of them are in.

It spoke specifically of the sisters “moving beyond the Church,” and “moving beyond Christ” and becoming “post-Christian.” It also gave an overview of strategies for coping with the situation they were in as Post-Christian sisters, a status many sisters are in. It likened them to Hagar in the desert and spoke of civil incorporation, going non-canonical and ways to get the money and run, etc. It was pretty direct and also pretty shocking.

It’s been removed from the LCWR site now.

No. It’s still there. I linked to it in my first post. I didn’t find it all that shocking. Sr. Brink doesn’t advocate that sisters should move beyond the Church. She is merely describing that as one of four directions congregations seem to be taking and inviting discussion about it. She does the same with the other three future possibilities as well.

I recommend that people read it for themselves rather than rely on hearsay. You can find it on the LCWR website at: lcwr.org/calendar/lcwr-assembly-2007

This is the direct link: lcwr.org/sites/default/files/calendar/attachments/2007_Keynote_Address-Laurie_Brink-OP.pdf

The title of the address is “A Marginal Life: Pursuing Religious Holiness in the 21st Century Keynote Address by Laurie Brink, OP”

 

[bellasbane]

He did.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

I’m surprised you don’t know this if you’re Catholic. This happened years ago.

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Or what? See no anathema.

 

[kalt]

" ‘When you don’t work everyday with people who live at the margins of our society, it’s so much easier to make easy statements about who’s right and who’s wrong,’ Campbell said."

I’m stunned by this statement.

What’s so hard about saying that abortion is wrong? And what difference does the socio-economic class of the mother and father make in determining the morality of the action? How can someone find gray area here?

 

[iloveangels]

No. It’s still there. I linked to it in my first post. I didn’t find it all that shocking. Sr. Brink doesn’t advocate that sisters should move beyond the Church. She is merely describing that as one of four directions congregations seem to be taking and inviting discussion about it. She does the same with the other three future possibilities as well.

I recommend that people read it for themselves rather than rely on hearsay. You can find it on the LCWR website at: lcwr.org/calendar/lcwr-assembly-2007

This is the direct link: lcwr.org/sites/default/files/calendar/attachments/2007_Keynote_Address-Laurie_Brink-OP.pdf

The title of the address is “A Marginal Life: Pursuing Religious Holiness in the 21st Century Keynote Address by Laurie Brink, OP”

Quote: “The dynamic option for Religious Life, which I am calling, Sojourning, is much
more difficult to discuss, since it involves moving beyond the Church, even beyond
Jesus. A sojourning congregation is no longer ecclesiastical. It has grown beyond the
bounds of institutional religion. Its search for the Holy may have begun rooted in Jesus as
the Christ, but deep reflection, study and prayer have opened it up to the spirit of the
Holy in all of creation. Religious titles, institutional limitations, ecclesiastical authorities
no longer fit this congregation, which in most respects is Post-Christian.”

You don’t find that a shocking thing for a Catholic sister to say???

And I mean, not only say, but deliver at a national convention and then put out on the internet for 5 years.

BTW thanks for the current link. I had read it several years ago, in fact. I read a lot. I found it shocking then. All this business is not very new to me. I’ve known about it for some time.

 

[iloveangels]

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Or what? See no anathema.

What is there about “NO” that you don’t understand?

 

[bellasbane]

Quote: “The dynamic option for Religious Life, which I am calling, Sojourning, is much
more difficult to discuss, since it involves moving beyond the Church, even beyond
Jesus. A sojourning congregation is no longer ecclesiastical. It has grown beyond the
bounds of institutional religion. Its search for the Holy may have begun rooted in Jesus as
the Christ, but deep reflection, study and prayer have opened it up to the spirit of the
Holy in all of creation. Religious titles, institutional limitations, ecclesiastical authorities
no longer fit this congregation, which in most respects is Post-Christian.”

You don’t find that a shocking thing for a Catholic sister to say???

And I mean, not only say, but deliver at a national convention and then put out on the internet for 5 years.

BTW thanks for the current link. I had read it several years ago, in fact. I read a lot. I found it shocking then. All this business is not very new to me. I’ve known about it for some time.

She also says:

“I begin with this disclaimer: the opinions offered in this presentation do not necessarily reflect the opinions of LCWR, the Roman Catholic Church, the Dominicans of Sinsinawa or the Dominicans of the U.S. for that matter.”

Then she describes the hardest choice, Reconciliation, and says this about it:

“Reconciliation is not the only choice, but it is my choice, because it is also my Church. And with St. Paul, I want to be about that new creation, for “the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”My sisters, the Mission of Jesus compels us and the Church in crisis begs us to becoming an active reconciling presence.”

No, I don’t find that a shocking thing for a Catholic sister to say.

 

[iloveangels]

She also says:

“I begin with this disclaimer: the opinions offered in this presentation do not necessarily reflect the opinions of LCWR, the Roman Catholic Church, the Dominicans of Sinsinawa or the Dominicans of the U.S. for that matter.”

Then she describes the hardest choice, Reconciliation, and says this about it:

“Reconciliation is not the only choice, but it is my choice, because it is also my Church. And with St. Paul, I want to be about that new creation, for “the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”My sisters, the Mission of Jesus compels us and the Church in crisis begs us to becoming an active reconciling presence.”

No, I don’t find that a shocking thing for a Catholic sister to say.

Well, you have a different standard for shocking than most of the rest of the Catholic world then.

 

[the_phoenix]

The news? :clapping::clapping::clapping:

The Archbishop?
God bless him and protect him.

 

[jay29]

When is it going to end? Women’s ordination and homosexuality are settled issues with the Catholic Church. How many times do these boring topics have to be raised from the dead? Get over it. These nuns need to get in line with AUTHENTIC Catholic Teachings or get out of the Church.

 

[iloveangels]

She also says:

“I begin with this disclaimer: the opinions offered in this presentation do not necessarily reflect the opinions of LCWR, the Roman Catholic Church, the Dominicans of Sinsinawa or the Dominicans of the U.S. for that matter.”

Then she describes the hardest choice, Reconciliation, and says this about it:

“Reconciliation is not the only choice, but it is my choice, because it is also my Church. And with St. Paul, I want to be about that new creation, for “the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”My sisters, the Mission of Jesus compels us and the Church in crisis begs us to becoming an active reconciling presence.”

No, I don’t find that a shocking thing for a Catholic sister to say.

But what’s really interesting is that some groups took her up on it. She wasn’t kidding and she knew it. One of the first ones was the Benedictine Women of Madison:

benedictinewomen.org/benedictine-women-of-madison/

 

[bellasbane]

What is there about “NO” that you don’t understand?

I said I’m no champion for women priests. However, there is something to be valued in clear doctrinal statements like those of Trent - especially if the goal is to settle the matter once and for all. At Trent, the Bishops were dealing with the Protestant challenge to core doctrines of the Church. For example:

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified…let him be anathema.”

Did that change with Vatican II? Are Protestants still considered to be damned for believing in sola fide? I never found a good answer to this either. The best I ever heard was that if you grew up being taught to believe in sola fide - you’re not damned, just ignorant.

 

[iloveangels]

I said I’m no champion for women priests. However, there is something to be valued in clear doctrinal statements like those of Trent - especially if the goal is to settle the matter once and for all. At Trent, the Bishops were dealing with the Protestant challenge to core doctrines of the Church. For example:

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified…let him be anathema.”

Did that change with Vatican II? Are Protestants still considered to be damned for believing in sola fide? I never found a good answer to this either. The best I ever heard was that if you grew up being taught to believe in sola fide - you’re not damned, just ignorant.

I though progressives liked dialog rather than just being told no. Or is this damned if you do and damned if you don’t night?

Well, you have a clear statement on the LCWR from the Vatican. That ought to make you happy since you’re in the mood for the definite. Even the whiny National Catholic Reporter is saying now, “What’s more, the lawyers say, LCWR has no recourse for appeal of the decision, which the U.S. bishops’ conference announced Wednesday in a press release.” Boom. Stark, they call it. Happy now?

 

[bellasbane]

BTW thanks for the current link. I had read it several years ago, in fact. I read a lot. I found it shocking then. All this business is not very new to me. I’ve known about it for some time.

I forgot to say you’re welcome!

 

[ellipsis2]

Long overdue. Dissent in the Church needs to be squashed. Either follow the Catholic Teachings in the Catechism or get lost. It has to be this way. The liberal takeover of Vatican II is the cause of all this. I hope and pray the SSPX reconciles with the Church because that is the place I just might go. I’m sick and tired of modern style Masses. Sneakers, jeans, shorts, guitars, no incense.

Good luck and God bless you in your journey to the past.

 

[ellipsis2]

I began reading this thread with a real interest in what Vatican had to say about the state of woman religious in the US. I have been reading and discussing the “visits” for quite a while. I have many family members who are part of religious orders being both nuns and priests. Having witnessed how much these people have sacrificed to live out the word of God in their lives on a daily basis, I am dismayed and angry at the uncharitable generalities that are stated in this thread. I am so reminded of Jesus’s continual criticism of the Pharisees. There seems to be too many pharisees and not enough apostles at this forum.