Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[catharina]

Sounds like a witch hunt. Glad you didn’t lower yourself to that level.

**It’s too bad you can’t seem to handle a dissenting opinion on this issue without resorting to an ad hominem attack **

Excuse me?
Isn’t the bolded-above an ad hominem attack?

 

[curlycool89]

I think Mary’s first words were something along the lines of “that’s impossible” and then Gabriel said something like “No, seriously - look at Elizabeth” and then Mary said, “Well, OK then”. But I don’t really think she was 100% convinced, because she then went to see Elizabeth to verify that what the angel said was true.

No, no no no no.

Mary’s words were “how is this possible because I have no known a man”, which was an inquiry. She was then told that the “Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the eMost High will overshadow you”. The reference to Elizabeth was to show that anything is possible with God, something that was already shown in Abraham and Sarah (who had Isaac at a very old age). Mary then says, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to me according to your word”. Obedience and trust in God.

Mary visited Elizabeth because she was her cousin. To suggest that she didn’t believe the angel or needed verification is downright disrespectful to the Blessed Mother. It was there that Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women”; this was not to re-assure her, this was because she was carrying Jesus and that made her blessed among women to be the Arc of the New Covenant.

That’s the kind of woman I admire. One who isn’t going to just passively let someone tell her what reality to believe, even if that someone is an immortal being sent by God himself.

You’re creating Mary in your own image. I would suggest that you go and read some real Orthodox teachings about Mary (Scott Hahn’s “Hail, Holy Queen” is a very easy read for one).

1. 
   *]I’m not an advocate for women priests.
   *]Papal Infallibility was declared a doctrine of the Church by Vatican I. That’s good enough.
   *]Only the Pope and Church Councils are infallible. Not Cardinals.

1. 
   Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) is considered to be one of the top (if not THE top) theologian of our time. If his analysis said that Bl. John Paul II spoke infallibly, then I believe him.
   

   And Pride is one of the seven big bads. Ezekiel 28:17

   How is it pride? When I speak I am reviled for what I say. If I wanted to build up my own ego, it would be much easier to go with popular faux-rights issues (abortion, homosexual “marriage”).
   

   You sound like a Buddhist!
   
   Suffering (dukkha) is caused by craving. This is often expressed as a deluded clinging to a certain sense of existence, to selfhood, or to the things or phenomena that we consider the cause of happiness or unhappiness.
   
   Suffering ends when craving ends. This is achieved by eliminating delusion, thereby reaching a liberated state of Enlightenment (bodhi);
   
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#The_Four_Noble_Truths

   I phrased that wrong, that should have been slavery to the things of the world (I was tired and needed sleep).
   
   Sure, maybe Buddhism has spoken something that is true. There’s nothing wrong with saying that other religions or philosophies may have some truth, but the Fullness of Truth only exists in the Catholic Church.
   

   Indeed. They are putting on a facade of surprise.
   
   **This is about disobedience. **
   
   I applaud the Vatican for this action. :clapping:

   Aye. And disobedience comes from the Father of Lies, not from God.
   
   Obedience comes from God.

 

[catharina]

Weighing in with opinion…for what is worth here.
I think this is going to be formative more than it will be punitive for women religious. The conference was formed because Rome wanted it. Maybe the sisters will simply decide to disband the LCWR and form their own group or groups.
It’s getting rather ugly these days as the hierarchy continues to do things to show their control and power over us, regardless of who gets hurt…and it’s us, the Catholics, getting hurt by all this. If these actions coming out of Rome continue, the damage to unity will be significant. This kind of crusade is ugly and It will not end well.

It has been getting “rather ugly” for a very long time.

Sr. Theresa Kane reprimanded (rubuked, insulted) Pope John Paul II,
the Holy Father, at a public meeting in WASH DC, when in fact she
was to welcome him.
That was in 1979.
Sister Theresa Kane, RSM, was and is one of the leading Sisters
who are members/supporters of lcwr. Some of us have long memories.
Others, not so much.

 

[Anna_Claire]

It is not the good that these people have done that is being corrected - if you have read about the report, they were commended for those good things. However, they (in general) are guilty of grave omissions in the realm of life issues, and grave commissions in the theological/doctrinal realm. This is very serious, and they have caused many to falter because of this.

This could be applied to the hierarchy well. I’m willing to bet more Catholics are faltering because of the hierarchy than because of the sisters. Also, bishops as a group, have been damaged by moral scandal. These days they have very little credibility. You would think that they could see this fact but they don’t seem to care.
They are hurting these women and by doing so, hurting the church. Shame on them!

 

[Tigg]

A crisis of a different kind: Where, oh where, do we house all the novitiates who have come in response to their God-given call? By a national expansion, of course.

Through profession of the vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience, along with a contemplative emphasis on Eucharistic adoration and Marian devotion, our community exists for the salvation of souls and the building of the Church throughout the world. As Dominicans, our primary apostolate is the education and formation of young people. We remain open to engaging the modern culture with new forms of evangelization in order to preach the Gospel and teach the Truth.

sistersofmary.org/index.php

While the LCWR fights for its life in opposition to all church leadership, look who is flourishing!

the-american-catholic.com/2010/05/21/booming-traditional-relgious-orders/

ionacatholic.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-orthodox-religious-orders-flourish.html

By their fruits, you shall know them!

 

[the_phoenix]

I for one am absolutely thrilled by this move:thumbsup: - traditional orders are thriving, and this is just another nail in the coffin of modernistic, “spirit of Vatican II”, new age soaked goofiness…thank God.
The Catholic Church, she is timeless. This whole modernism thing has gone on far too long.

 

[curlycool89]

This could be applied to the hierarchy well. I’m willing to bet more Catholics are faltering because of the hierarchy than because of the sisters. Also, bishops as a group, have been damaged by moral scandal. These days they have very little credibility. You would think that they could see this fact but they don’t seem to care.
They are hurting these women and by doing so, hurting the church. Shame on them!

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m friends with my Bishop and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and other Bishops as Shepherds of us (the sheep).

Yes, there were some bishops that made some bad decisions, but that doesn’t mean all bishops are evil and bad. Most people in the US can point to a President that they think was an embarrassment and just a terrible person, but that doesn’t mean the Office of President has been forever tainted. Do you see the difference?

 

[Anna_Claire]

They’ve also had a very big hand in destroying it. And don’t forget, it’s not all women religious who are in this state of rebellious and heretical infamy. Many nuns and sisters in the other conference also had a hand in building Catholicism in America. And, hopefully, there are many religious sisters in LCWR who have never agreed with the organization’s tenets. Hopefully, they will have the courage to remove themselves from it.

I think the big controversy that this will create could have been avoided if things had been corrected decades ago.

Are you serious?!!! The arrogant women hating hierarchy are bringing down Catholicism! They continue to do so. This attack (call it whatever you want but it is an attack against the sisters) is not the mind of Christ.

 

[the_phoenix]

A crisis of a different kind: Where, oh where, do we house all the novitiates who have come in response to their God-given call? By a national expansion, of course.

While the LCWR fights for its life in opposition to all church leadership, look who is flourishing!

the-american-catholic.com/2010/05/21/booming-traditional-relgious-orders/

ionacatholic.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-orthodox-religious-orders-flourish.html

By their fruits, you shall know them!

Hi Tigg,

Was also thinking myself of highlighting the wonderful group of sisters,
Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist.
I had the honor and the privilege of attending one of their Advent retreats
in Ann Arbor, Michigan
and so have personally seen them, spoken with them, prayed with them,
attended Mass with them.
These sisters have a great love for the Pope.
Simply awesome!
I love how their numbers are growing!
May the Good Lord continue to bless the
Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist
with many more vocations.

:nun1: :nun2: :nun1: :nun2: :nun1:

:heaven:

 

[Corki]

Are you serious?!!! The arrogant women hating hierarchy are bringing down Catholicism! They continue to do so. This attack (call it whatever you want but it is an attack against the sisters) is not the mind of Christ.

It’s not an attack. It’s an attempted correction. As your earlier posts indicated, many of these congregations floundered in the past few decades without their original mission of teaching in Catholic schools or nursing in Catholic hospitals. Some found a new way that was good; others got sidetracked and distracted. Sure, they Church should have addressed this earlier and not let the drifting continue for so long - shame on the Vatican that it neglected the sisters in this way. But now they have the Vatican’s attention and resources to keep the good while pruning the distractions and activities that have been working against the Church instead of for her.

It is certainly not a “women hating” act to try to save the congregations of women’s religious.

 

[the_phoenix]

Are you serious?!!! The arrogant women hating hierarchy are bringing down Catholicism! They continue to do so. This attack (call it whatever you want but it is an attack against the sisters) is not the mind of Christ.

Dear Anna Claire,

The Catholic nuns below sure don’t look like they’ve been brought down by any such hierarchy … in fact, they look very happy to support the Pope. In fact, looks to me like they exhibit the mind of Christ.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

These three nuns represent Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate, Monroe NY and carry a sign showing Pope Benedict with some children and the words “Hope and Trust in Life.” I took this photo in January, 2010 during the March for Life rally in Washington, DC.

Thank you for your post, which inspired me to post my photo.

~~ the phoenix

…

 

[jwinch2]

Are you serious?!!! The arrogant women hating hierarchy are bringing down Catholicism! They continue to do so. This attack (call it whatever you want but it is an attack against the sisters) is not the mind of Christ.

And who speaks for Christ in the world? The last time I checked, it was His bride the Church. Or was Jesus lying when he said to His apostles, “he who hears you, hears me”?

Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to advocate openly for female ordination? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to openly support abortion? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to contradict Church teaching on contraception? Do you think it is OK for some women religious to support homosexual marriage? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to be disobedient to the teachings of Christ’s Church on earth?

Because those things are happening and have been for a long time. In my own parish we have a religious sister who does fantastic work in the community in many ways. However, she also openly supports women’s ordination, homosexual marriage, and abortion. In addition, she was teaching these beliefs to children in a Catholic school setting.

Take Sister Joan Chittister, OSB for example. She is a Benedictine sister. Here is what it says in the beginning of the section on obedience in the Rule of Saint Benedict:

The first degree of humility is obedience without delay.
This is the virtue of those
who hold nothing dearer to them than Christ;
who, because of the holy service they have professed,
and the fear of hell,
and the glory of life everlasting,
as soon as anything has been ordered by the Superior,
receive it as a divine command
and cannot suffer any delay in executing it.
Of these the Lord says,
“As soon as he heard, he obeyed Me” (Ps. 17[18]:45).
And again to teachers He says,
“He who hears you, hears Me” (Luke 10:16).

 

[jwinch2]

ncregister.com/daily-news/holy-see-mandates-reform-of-u.s.-women-religious-conference/

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/sisters-in-crisis-special

One article and one interview on the LCWR situation. Interesting information.

 

[iloveangels]

I have done a bit more digging since you posted this. Thanks by the way, it was interesting.

However, there is one part of your analysis that does not add up completely which is the part of women in societies which had more formation and tradition being the ones that had the least problem. If you look now at the women involved with LCWR and the National Coalition of American Nuns, the same ones who are largely leading the charge on some of these issues, there are many women with OP, OSB, and OFM after their names. Those orders did have founders to look to as well as spiritual fathers and mothers in Francis, Clare, Benedict, Dominic, etc. They could read their venerable writings and see what they intended yet they still ended up somewhere else.

I recognize that all such issues are multifaceted, but I am not seeing a link there. Admittedly, I have not done as much study on the issue as you have.

Peace,

I’ve read several books on the topic, including just last week “The Rise and Fall of Catholic Religious Orders” by Patricia Wittberg, which is very informative and well-written. It’s been written, for the most part, from an academic perspective rather than an “us” vs. “them” perspective. It’s one of the very few studies that have been made of women’s religious orders from a sociological standpoint in an effort to understand exactly what did happen with the human component of this mess. And as grace works on nature, as you know, this is important to consider as well as the theological or moral component–if for no other reason than to avoid physically doing it again.

I haven’t seen a listing of all the congregations, institutes, societies and orders in the LCWR, so I can’t put together a percentage tally of how many belong to what religious organization. But from my reading, the loss of purpose was much worse among those sisters whose charisms were built around the specific institutions, customs and habits they were to wear. When Vatican II and the changes in society took those away, they were set completely adrift. Some sisters simply gave up and left due to the lack of direction and the experiments that went on; some stayed because they were still serious about religion; some stayed because in 1964, there was no place for an older woman to go if she had no work experience and no family. Religious life can isolate women and make them unemployable in the normal work world.

Also, some of the large players in this saga are congregations. I hestitate to point out specific ones because I don’t want to see “pile-ons” occur on the account of what I have said. I don’t deserve that and neither do the minority of sisters, even in some of the worst situations, who have resisted this nonsense with real courage for many decades.

 

[hudson]

Are you serious?!!! The arrogant women hating hierarchy are bringing down Catholicism! They continue to do so. This attack (call it whatever you want but it is an attack against the sisters) is not the mind of Christ.

Disgusting comment. Bishops are the authentic teachers of the Church, not some heterodox teaching sisters. All orthodox teaching religious women are respected by us all for their hard work and devotion to the Church.

 

[iloveangels]

Also, originally there were two women’s umbrella groups and one man’s group. These are the women’s groups:

1. The Conference of Major Superiors of Women (CMSM) which became the LCWR in 1971 and which contemplative sisters were not allowed to join.
2. The Association of Contemplative Sisters (ACS) which never received approval from the Vatican.

In 1992 the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR) was founded in Rome as a reform group but it has not replaced the LCWR. Some congregations, however, do belong to both the LCWR and the CMSWR.

It is possible, since the ACS was never approved by Rome, that contemplative sisters did join the LCWR to some degree in the intervening years, but I don’t how prevalent that might have been. The fact that women OSBs are involved in this lends real credibility to this idea that some did, though.

 

[jwinch2]

Also, originally there were two women’s umbrella groups and one man’s group. These are the women’s groups:

1. The Conference of Major Superiors of Women (CMSM) which became the LCWR in 1971 and which contemplative sisters were not allowed to join.
2. The Association of Contemplative Sisters (ACS) which never received approval from the Vatican.

In 1992 the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR) was founded in Rome as a reform group but it has not replaced the LCWR. Some congregations, however, do belong to both the LCWR and the CMSWR.

It is possible, since the ACS was never approved by Rome, that contemplative sisters did join the LCWR to some degree in the intervening years, but I don’t how prevalent that might have been. The fact that women OSBs are involved in this lends real credibility to this idea that some did, though.

The Dominican contemplatives seem to be split between CMSWR and LCWR from what I can tell.

 

[iloveangels]

The Dominican contemplatives seem to be split between CMSWR and LCWR from what I can tell.

Jason, BTW, I just noticed that the teaching sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, who were just founded recently, also use the initials O.P. Not all the sisters using O.P. are contemplative nuns or members of the Dominican Second Order. This new group of teaching sisters just founded will be a congregation, institute or society since Rules of Orders are no longer approved in Rome–remember the last approved rule was the Jesuits.

And at any rate, all that aside, some groups belong to both the LCWR and the CMSWR. It’s allowed.

 

[Anna_Claire]

You have me confused with another poster. I wasn’t me… "As your earlier posts indicated, many of these congregations floundered in the past few decades without their original mission of teaching in Catholic schools or nursing in Catholic hospitals.

Traditional Catholics seem to be taking great delight in all this. I will say it again. This is not the mind of Christ. The church is imploding and some wont be happy until the day comes when the only folks left in the pews are traditional Catholics who believe the Vatican can do no wrong. People are leaving, especially the marginalized. If this continues…who will foot the bills? Rich traditionalists? The pope?

 

[iloveangels]

You have me confused with another poster. I wasn’t me… "As your earlier posts indicated, many of these congregations floundered in the past few decades without their original mission of teaching in Catholic schools or nursing in Catholic hospitals.

Traditional Catholics seem to be taking great delight in all this. I will say it again. This is not the mind of Christ. The church is imploding and some wont be happy until the day comes when the only folks left in the pews are traditional Catholics who believe the Vatican can do no wrong. People are leaving, especially the marginalized. If this continues…who will foot the bills? Rich traditionalists? The pope?

The church is not imploding. At. All.

However, there is a “feeding frenzy” going on. There are a lot of reasons for it, but I’m not going to justify either way. It’s a sad thing that all this has happened, and a lot has happened. But we must be careful not to lump everyone together and go nuts. The Vatican is the one that needs to deal with this, not us.