Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[jwinch2]

Jason, the Dominicans are a very tight organization in general compared to some of the others, and the congregations of Dominican sisters might be able to be socially pressured to some degree to conform to a certain standard as a result, but the 1st order, the Dominican Friars, I think you would be surprised to find out, cannot dictate to the Sinsinawa Dominicans how to run their houses or their apostolates. The S. Dominican sisters are teaching sisters who belong to a congregation that isn’t connected canonically to the 1st order. I believe that they’re probably also Pontifical Right, but I could be wrong on that.

No, a group does not need permission to use the name of a saint. However, that is not the same thing as claiming to be a Dominican. There are a number of groups which claim inspiration from a certain type of spirituality That is however, not the situation here. In order to claim the name “Dominican” any group such as the Sinsinawa Dominicans had to first petition the Master of the Order for permission. This petition came with promises to follow specific way of life and a certain level of obedience, not to the average friar that walks through the door, but to the Master as the successor to Saint Dominic. Should he choose to use it, the Master of the Order does have a level of authority that does not exist in other orders/congregations. There is also the social pressure that you spoke of as if they want to be able to continue to call themselves Dominican, they have to comply with certain norms in terms of behavior/orthodoxy. One of those things is that yes, Dominicans are encouraged to debate and discuss prior to decision making. However, this is always to be done from the place of a desire to learn from each other, to necessarily impact change that you might desire over a direction which is preferred by someone else. In addition, once a decision is made, it is entirely incorrect for that debate to continue. So, when you see a Dominican Sister arguing for women’s ordination or something similar, they are in stark violation of the teachings of Dominic at their most basic level.

Having said all of that, I am unaware of any attempts to affect change by the Master of the Order in any of the various groups of active sisters attached to the Order of Preachers. He is coming to America again this summer, so perhaps there will be something coinciding with the CDF statements and the ongoing apostolic visitation that he will attempt to facilitate, but that is complete speculation on my part.

The laity are very, very lazy. As an example, the priests have to give the announcements before the blessing in this part of the country because if they don’t, the laity will get out of the building before he can read them. The laity just do not want to allot time for it. They also don’t study their faith and many of them are woefully ignorant about it. Just look around the Catholic world and observe for a bit. You’ll see.

I have seen it, I just don’t think it is accurate to paint all of the laity with that brush. We talk on here repeatedly about how it is inappropriate to paint all priests with the same brush, and in this thread women’s religious. Well, there are a ton of wonderful faithful Catholics holding their parishes together with their bare hands and out of their own pockets who have been doing that for years. Calling them lazy, bothers me.

PS. Although I am a Catholic convert, I am the granddaughter of protestant minister. You can do more with 70 protestants in any given week than you can with 1000 Catholics in a month. Catholics tend to be cheap and lazy. It’s a constant source of frustration for converts.

I’m a convert as well and my father is an Assembly of God pastor. I have seen what you have seen but have come to some differing conclusions. Yes, there are smaller congregations but guess what those congregations have going on. Not much. Sure, there is the occasional potluck dinner, etc. but ESL, Catechesis, visiting the home bound, education, running a school, running a soup kitchen, etc. is typically not done out of the local small church like that.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m a convert as well and my father is an Assembly of God pastor.

Wow! That’s a pentecostal denomination, right?

Anyway, I just came here to say I really don’t like reading, the laity this, the laity that. Who do the laity think they are, etc, etc.

We are way past the days when when the laity were uneducated peasants, who didn’t need to worry their pretty little heads.

 

[jwinch2]

Wow! That’s a pentecostal denomination, right?

As pentecostal as they come…

 

[TrueLight]

As pentecostal as they come…

All my relatives are pentecostal except for my mom, who attended a Baptist church and my third cousins who are Catholic.

My uncle is a pastor in the Church of God denomination.

 

[jwinch2]

All my relatives are pentecostal except for my mom, who attended a Baptist church and my third cousins who are Catholic.

My uncle is a pastor in the Church of God denomination.

Nice. Well, at least we both ended up in the right place!

 

[iloveangels]

Firstly I don’t think these anecdotes are good examples of laziness. Secondly, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Chapter II, Part D section 90a, provides for brief announcements during the concluding rites, and this is not an adaptation for the USA, this is a global prescription for the whole Church. If priests in other parts of the world do not take advantage of it then perhaps they consider their parishioners to be especially attentive to bulletins or other notices posted, but I would not assume the presence of absence of laziness based on this example.

Furthermore, as far as faithfulness goes, I have a good friend who lives in Spain, and we frequently have discussions about the difference between our perceptions of the Church. She is a convert to Catholicism from atheist parents, and she rejects many critical Church teachings and the authority of the heirarchy. She only attends Mass if the choir is needed, and in the five years I have known her, she maybe has been to Confession once. She tells me that this is the norm for her parishioners and her Catholic friends in Spain. She has come to the USA for a visit and she viewed American Catholics with apprehension for pious practices, and has used words such as “extremist” to characterize our faith. I take all this as a great compliment for myself and all the Catholics still in the pews on Sundays (not to mention daily Mass) so I don’t think that American Catholicism is as lost as you say it is.

So we find the laziest catholic we can find and as long as we’re not as lazy as they are, then we’re good, is that the plan?

 

[iloveangels]

No, a group does not need permission to use the name of a saint. However, that is not the same thing as claiming to be a Dominican. There are a number of groups which claim inspiration from a certain type of spirituality That is however, not the situation here. In order to claim the name “Dominican” any group such as the Sinsinawa Dominicans had to first petition the Master of the Order for permission. This petition came with promises to follow specific way of life and a certain level of obedience, not to the average friar that walks through the door, but to the Master as the successor to Saint Dominic. Should he choose to use it, the Master of the Order does have a level of authority that does not exist in other orders/congregations. There is also the social pressure that you spoke of as if they want to be able to continue to call themselves Dominican, they have to comply with certain norms in terms of behavior/orthodoxy. One of those things is that yes, Dominicans are encouraged to debate and discuss prior to decision making. However, this is always to be done from the place of a desire to learn from each other, to necessarily impact change that you might desire over a direction which is preferred by someone else. In addition, once a decision is made, it is entirely incorrect for that debate to continue. So, when you see a Dominican Sister arguing for women’s ordination or something similar, they are in stark violation of the teachings of Dominic at their most basic level.

That’s really awesome, Jason. I don’t think Franciscans have that, unless it goes on at the level of the Congregation for Religious Life in Rome, and even then I"m pretty sure it’s voluntary between Superior Generals, but our structure is different than yours. Once he gives the permission does he ever have the power to rescind it?

Having said all of that, I am unaware of any attempts to affect change by the Master of the Order in any of the various groups of active sisters attached to the Order of Preachers. He is coming to America again this summer, so perhaps there will be something coinciding with the CDF statements and the ongoing apostolic visitation that he will attempt to facilitate, but that is complete speculation on my part.

I have seen it, I just don’t think it is accurate to paint all of the laity with that brush. We talk on here repeatedly about how it is inappropriate to paint all priests with the same brush, and in this thread women’s religious. Well, there are a ton of wonderful faithful Catholics holding their parishes together with their bare hands and out of their own pockets who have been doing that for years. Calling them lazy, bothers me.
I’m a convert as well and my father is an Assembly of God pastor. I have seen what you have seen but have come to some differing conclusions. Yes, there are smaller congregations but guess what those congregations have going on. Not much. Sure, there is the occasional potluck dinner, etc. but ESL, Catechesis, visiting the home bound, education, running a school, running a soup kitchen, etc. is typically not done out of the local small church like that.

No, little tiny places like the one I mentioned typically get together with other local places and pool their resources for ministry to the poor, missionaries and that sort of thing. They generally can’t pay for that by themselves.

I guess I shouldn’t be so hard on lay Catholics, but I’ve seen the same thing curlycool89 has seen. And the ones you mention, the ones working to keep everything together, yes they exist. But they’re far & away the minority. A few percent.

Wow, this may be a Catholic forum, but this thread is a post-Protestant thread. Church of God Pentecostal grandfather and uncles here with, believe it or not, a Church of the Nazarene deacon aunt. Don’t throw any tomatoes at me now. I still have relatives that are ministers now. There have always been a lot of ministers in my family.

And yes, we all ended up in the right place. Catholicism is better.

 

[iloveangels]

Wow! That’s a pentecostal denomination, right?

Anyway, I just came here to say I really don’t like reading, the laity this, the laity that. Who do the laity think they are, etc, etc.

We are way past the days when when the laity were uneducated peasants, who didn’t need to worry their pretty little heads.

Correct. We are way past being passive observers. The laypeople that you didn’t talk about, Jason, need to be doing more and expecting people to wait on them less.

 

[Suudy]

I don’t know if it has been posted, but I did find this document.

usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t know if it has been posted, but I did find this document.

usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

Yes, that’s the 8-page report we keep hearing about. I think there was also a cover letter that went with it.

 

[opus101]

Here is an interview of Sr. Denise Donnelly by Professor James Hitchcock telling of her ordeal and persecution
youtu.be/ydXPoA2m5oQ

I’ve often wondered about the older sisters in certain congregations…and this interview speaks of something I was afraid of - they are basically being held hostage. They are afraid to voice their views because they have nowhere else to go. Some of them are martyrs.

This is a really old interview, at least 30 years old (?). Do you know if this sister is still living?

 

[jwinch2]

Once he gives the permission does he ever have the power to rescind it?

No idea. I’ve never heard of it being done.

 

[zab]

I’ve often wondered about the older sisters in certain congregations…and this interview speaks of something I was afraid of - they are basically being held hostage. They are afraid to voice their views because they have nowhere else to go. Some of them are martyrs.

This is a really old interview, at least 30 years old (?). Do you know if this sister is still living?

I have been searching and searching google. The only thing that I found (other than my posts and YouTube video) was a possible notice of her death.
DONNELLY, Evelyn “Sister Denise”; 88; MI; Michigan Catholic; 2001-5-18; windy
obits.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/obit.cgi?Surname=%2Bdenise+e&type=Keyword&Start=2600

 

[iloveangels]

I have been searching and searching google. The only thing that I found (other than my posts and YouTube video) was a possible notice of her death.
DONNELLY, Evelyn “Sister Denise”; 88; MI; Michigan Catholic; 2001-5-18; windy
obits.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/obit.cgi?Surname=%2Bdenise+e&type=Keyword&Start=2600

Yes, they exist. They’re very old and most of them are probably not computer literate. Near where I live there is a major motherhouse that has some. I’m a female and I’ve been there on occasion. At mealtime you can see them, some of them still wearing their habits and sitting in small groups. I’m sure that they gave some (name removed by moderator)ut into the process when the assessment was done in 2009. How much they were heard I don’t know.

 

[KSU]

Our faithful nuns have suffered long enough but it was not all in vain. Thank God their prayers have been answered!

Exactly right! I owe all I have, spiritually and probably otherwise, to those wonderful women who taught me from the late 1940ties to the late 1950ties. Who, except God, could ever repay them?

News report: “Sr. Joan Chittister doesn’t see much hope for a resolution. She thinks they will have to disband canonically and regroup as an unofficial interest group.”

We aren’t that lucky and Chittister et al aren’t about to turn their back on their current financial support (although there is always the Campaign for Human Development). Without an approved Catholic identity the new LCWR’s views on homosexuality, Socialism, anti-Catholic feminism, etc. would loose viability and credibility.

 

[zab]

Yes, they exist. They’re very old and most of them are probably not computer literate. Near where I live there is a major motherhouse that has some. I’m a female and I’ve been there on occasion. At mealtime you can see them, some of them still wearing their habits and sitting in small groups. I’m sure that they gave some (name removed by moderator)ut into the process when the assessment was done in 2009. How much they were heard I don’t know.

I have learned from a reliable source that the Congregation of Sisters of St Joseph of Nazareth Wisconsin have ceased to exist as they once were. They now are part of a Federation which consists of several orders of SSJ/CSJ making them all one large group. Then, I ran across this website called The U.S. Federation Sisters of Saint Joseph

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think the thing we need to be doing the most right now for the Sisters is praying unceasingly for them. Perhaps we can request Masses for them. Religious’ very future is on the line. No young person, man or woman, wants to be part of a Religious congregation that exudes what is, in my opinion, self-hate of its very own Catholic identity.

 

[Lifesong]

I read this thread with interest and as a very recent convert with very little interaction in my life with women religious except professionally as nurse, and all of that was positive, I still find it sad how far adrift the body of Christ in general has gone. I left a Methodist church and faith I loved mostly because I was convinced of the truth but part of it was the left wing drift of the denomination as a whole. My tithes were by necessity going to the main denomination at a rate of 28% with no way to ear mark them meaning my money was going to anti life causes. This whole post Christian thing worries me- I have seen too much of that kind of dialogue in the mainline Protestant world lately and I just feel if an organization is going to be Catholic it has to be Catholic because there is plenty of lukewarm out there in other churches. Sorry if that sounds simplistic but I like to think I entered the Church as a little child and I believe with all my heart this is the Church the Lord started so moving “beyond Christ” just doesn’t cut it for me. The Church is the Body of Christ- if there are organizations who despite good works have drifted this should be looked into and addressed. What am I missing?

Blessings

Val

 

[Barish]

This is not going to be received well in my diocese. I love all of our sisters, and sadly, some of them have fallen into some serious error, and have spent years spreading that error and confusing a lot of people, me included… I pray that all involved set aside their own agendas and let the Holy Spirit guide them in this process!

My prayers are with you and with anyone caught in this crossfire. I am inspired by our religious. I hope they know that every time they go into a parish, school, or just on the street they proclaim God’s love through their actions and habit. It is hard for me to ignore even a simple habit. For those who comprehend even a portion of its meaning, it should be an inspiration to live a better life.

 

[triumphguy]

A bit off topic, but not really.

In this video filmed in Brazil 7 religious take perpetual vows and 120 novices profess simple vows.

youtube.com/watch?v=L2xX8tWaTx4&feature=related

And yes, these young guys have tonsures!

The Holy Spirit is at work, and good will come out of the situation with the LCWR.