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opus101
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I’m not sure this group is actually Catholic. I saw this video posted before, and I’m pretty sure it was determined that this group is not in union with Rome. Seems cultish.
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Tigg
Guest
Neither do I, and I especially think general characterizations are unfair. We are lazy, ignorant and bashing the sisters? That’s a stretch for my imagination. Yes, by the Church abdicating her role as teacher, we have a very large number of uncatechized Catholics but there is evidence of a changing tide. I sometimes read this board in astonishment and thank God there really are so many faithful, knowledgable lay persons and they are the ones outfront, defending the faith - sometimes even against harmful statements and actions done by the clergy, or as it pertains to this thread - the religious.
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triumphguy
Guest
Well so much for my good news
Anyhoo- I still believe that the Holy Spirit will break out of our weakness:thumbsup:
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iloveangels
Guest
The Catholic Church isn’t going to drift as a whole, Lifesong. We’ve been through far worse and survived it. Just keep praying and hang tight, that’s the Catholic way.
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iloveangels
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Triumphguy: In developing countries, the situation is much different than it is in North America and Europe. If you want to really see growth, it’s happening in Asia and Africa.
Opus101: That could be too. That goes on everywhere in the world, including here in the US. It’s just that here in the US you usually have to seek it out to find it. It’s there.
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iloveangels
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Actually the LCWR is mostly an American group, and American Catholics are about 5% of global Catholicism. Perhaps there are also a minority of them stationed in other countries, but nowhere near as many sisters do that as friars and religious order priests. Not so much is on the line.
One way or another, the Congregation in Rome will get the sisters to tone it down. You’ll see.
But by all means, prayer certainly never hurts a situation. It always helps, so your suggestion is a good one.
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jwinch2
Guest
I predict that the LCWR will not respond favorably and that we will see a move towards the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious among congregations in the US. If Sister Chittister, Keehan, etc. have their way they will move to be a secular organization. What will not happen is that they will poll their own constituents within LCWR to see what they want to organization to be. Which, if they were really concerned about representing women’s religious instead of promoting their political agenda, they would do.
What I do not think Sr. Chittister understands is that if LCWR is no longer identifiable as a Catholic organization, they are going to see two things dry up significantly. The first one is their money. Oh, they might see a short term boost from secular feminists around the country, but that will be short lived when they are not front page news anymore. The second thing which will dry up is their influence. The fact that they can currently claim to be Catholic is what gets them invited to the White House, to Congress, etc. and what allows them to provide political cover for politicians wishing to push an agenda which might otherwise be openly resisted by the faithful. It is also what causes news reporters to put them on TV or interview them every time something about the Church shows up in the news. If that organization is no longer Catholic, they are just one more liberal feminist movement and they will likely lose their seat at the table.
What I do not think Sr. Chittister understands is that if LCWR is no longer identifiable as a Catholic organization, they are going to see two things dry up significantly. The first one is their money. Oh, they might see a short term boost from secular feminists around the country, but that will be short lived when they are not front page news anymore. The second thing which will dry up is their influence. The fact that they can currently claim to be Catholic is what gets them invited to the White House, to Congress, etc. and what allows them to provide political cover for politicians wishing to push an agenda which might otherwise be openly resisted by the faithful. It is also what causes news reporters to put them on TV or interview them every time something about the Church shows up in the news. If that organization is no longer Catholic, they are just one more liberal feminist movement and they will likely lose their seat at the table.
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zab
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All of us bear some responsiblity for our failure as a nation to uphold the moral values and the dignity of human life. Thus, the moral decline that found its way into our convents and seminaries is just as reflection of our society as a whole. And speaking of general characterizations, our faithful Sisters have quietly endured persecution for many years, many not living to see the day when their longing prayers have finally been answered. Many of the older nuns in particular, had no way to voice their concerns. There is so much that we do not fully understand. In many ways the faithful lay persons have had more opportunities particularly today through our growing technologies to learn about and spread the truths of our Catholic Faith at such a fast pace not having to wait weeks and months to hear some response by snail mail. We are also not bound by some of the restrictions and duties of Religious life. The Appointment of Archbishop Sartain to lead the renewal of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious ( LCWR) is a blessing that many of us welcome.
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iloveangels
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We have to be careful to make a distinction between the LCWR which is a council of leaders of congregations, and the congregations themselves. If the LCWR is terminated as a council, it doesn’t necessarily mean that orders will transfer to the other organization. It also doesn’t mean that something else won’t spring up in its place that may even be “under the radar.” It’s hard telling what will happen here, except that it appears that the Holy See has caught onto the activities and promotions of the Council itself and is not going to tolerate open defiance from the LCWR.
What will be even more interesting is when we get to the report that’s being written on the women’s congregations themselves. If we get a shift towards non-canonical activity, it will take place because of that. That report is due this fall or winter, and I’m not sure how publicized it will be.
BTW, don’t expect this mess to go away anytime soon. The world doesn’t work that way any more. If religious congregations insist on continuing their defiance, and if they are censured in some way by the Congregation in Rome, then they will have choices to make. Going non-canonical isn’t necessarily a huge problem these days because of the ignorance of people nowadays, including Catholics.
Example: benedictinewomen.org/
This monastery went “non-canonical.” They are self-supporting and they have fellowships for women from all backgrounds in order to attract new members. They have simply blended into the “new-agey” background that exists “on the ground” in the USA.
Note that they still refer to their home as a monastery, they still call themselves Benedictine, and they still think of themselves as sisters, but they’ve moved on. I think you’d be surprised to know the number of outfits out in the flora and fauna of the US that call themselves Benedictine that don’t have canonical approval. Some of them aren’t anywhere near Catholic and never have been. Some of them are naive but earnest; some of them are silly; some of them are money-making businesses, pure and simple. The folk religious landscape is fascinating and strange.
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Corki
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Of course we are all just observing, and praying from the sidelines. I wonder if the LCWR will just merge into NETWORK. They already have a huge membership overlap and since NETWORK’s focus is entirely social justice, they avoid the need to be doctrinally orthodox.
As has been pointed out, there is no requirement that congregations of religious be under an umbrella organization. Those that want to be in one can join the CMSWR - if they meet the requirements.
(This is all assuming, of course, that the leadership of LCWR decides that the work with Archbishop Sartain is not feasible)
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iloveangels
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I’m not sure that they’ll provoke Rome that directly until the reports on the women’s congregations themselves are out this fall or winter. But eventually something like this is one possibility, yes, if they decide to go there.
It’s very likely that if a number of them end up leaving their canonical status behind, that they will band together to form “sisters’ groups” around their interests, and make trouble for the church, and people won’t understand the difference. To most people, a nun is a nun. They can’t tell the difference and have as much sophistication about it as a bucket of rocks. If they’re in a habit & live in common, all’s right with the world, no matter what’s really going on.
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jwinch2
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I know the congregations and the LCWR are not the same. I have made that distinction repeatedly. Whether they, or you, like it or not, they are lumped together by their own action, or lack thereof. There has been another option created by the Vatican for 20 years. The fact that many if not most, congregations of women’s religious have chosen to stay where they are is telling, regardless of whether they are in the news promoting dissent, or otherwise.
I don’t even waste my time with groups like that. My only concern with them is that by putting “OSB” after their names continuing to have Oblates, they are likely confusing the faithful in the area who come into contact with them. If they wanted to leave the Church, that is their decision. However, they should at least have the decency to stop pretending to be consecrated religious.
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catharina
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Yet network stands with lcwr.
The website today:
networklobby.org/
Since network calls itself “Catholic” one could hope
that it would be “doctrinely orthodox.” The site does not appear to be so.
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KSU
Guest
“…there is evidence of a changing tide. I sometimes read this board in astonishment and thank God there really are so many faithful, knowledgeable lay persons and they are the ones out front, defending the faith - sometimes even against harmful statements and actions done by the clergy, or as it pertains to this thread - the religious.”—Tigg
You took the words right out of my mouth, Tigg! This Forum truly is a blessing; a balm for Catholics who feel embarrassed, disheartened and almost isolated by the daily anti-Catholic drumbeat of high-visibility, bishop-bashing, self-proclaimed Catholics in Congress, media, and worst of all, in religious institutions and the clergy.
Just a few minutes ago my heart fell when I opened the link zab was good enough to provide in his post #255 regarding the current Sisters of Saint Joseph. Included in their web site was NETWORK’s purely Democratic Party platform for national and local activity under the usual Peace and Justice disguise. Included in the legislative agenda was a plea to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act with additional provisions that would accommodate same-sex couples and illegal immigrants.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Tigg! This Forum truly is a blessing; a balm for Catholics who feel embarrassed, disheartened and almost isolated by the daily anti-Catholic drumbeat of high-visibility, bishop-bashing, self-proclaimed Catholics in Congress, media, and worst of all, in religious institutions and the clergy.
Just a few minutes ago my heart fell when I opened the link zab was good enough to provide in his post #255 regarding the current Sisters of Saint Joseph. Included in their web site was NETWORK’s purely Democratic Party platform for national and local activity under the usual Peace and Justice disguise. Included in the legislative agenda was a plea to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act with additional provisions that would accommodate same-sex couples and illegal immigrants.
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iloveangels
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Legally they are not lumped together, except at the conference level, and they know that. There are two levels of approval here. That fact is going to inform what they can & will decide to do. This present decision only deals with the LCWR rather than with the congregations themselves and they know that full well. It does matter, and it will have everything to do with how they manage it and what happens next.
They may well decide to lay back and wait for individual reports on congregations themselves before deciding ultimately what to do. Or they may decide to pre-empt. Or they may decide to reform (however my opinion of that likelihood is about the same as yours). Or they may decide something else. I’m not sure what they will do and they may not know yet either.
That wasn’t what I was pointing out. I don’t waste my time with them either. But their ability to go “native” and do just fine in some very real ways, without canonical status makes them interesting. Most people out there can’t tell the difference. Many Catholics can’t tell the difference. The news media certainly can’t, or perhaps won’t care to.
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Corki
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Are these the same sisters you wrote of before, the elderly ones you see outside?
What happens to the older/retired sisters when a congregation goes non-canonical? The linked one is now not only non-canonical but ecumenical the “sisters” conduct their own worship services. Are the older sisters just stuck there, cut off from any access to the real sacraments? This makes me want to cry!
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iloveangels
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No. This is an entirely different group.
As for your question, I don’t know details about individuals in this congregation. It’s not local to me.
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Anna_Scott
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KSU,
Interesting post. I’ve found many faithful Catholics here. The witness is important, because there are many things creeping into the lives of Catholics in the general population. There seems, at times, to be disconnect between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Catholics are actually doing.
Yet, Catholics are quick to jump on the “evils” of Anglicanism. The reality is that secularism is making inroads into Christendom. The fight for orthodoxy should be a common one. Instead of pointing fingers at one another, we should stand in unity in every way possible.
Anna
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