Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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Legally they are not lumped together, except at the conference level, and they know that. There are two levels of approval here. That fact is going to inform what they can & will decide to do. This present decision only deals with the LCWR rather than with the congregations themselves and they know that full well. It does matter, and it will have everything to do with how they manage it and what happens next.
I know that they know both of those things.

My point is very simple. Those female religious who are associated with LCWR are going to be lumped in with them in terms of popular opinion among Catholics who care about fidelity to the Church, whether they want to be or not. It is also likely that they have already been lumped together to some extent in the minds of those in Rome. Because they have had another option for the past 20 years and have not made any sort of move, getting lumped together in that fashion is at least partly if not mostly their own doing. If getting lumped together in that fashion is a concern to individual congregations, they will likely make a move to the CMSWR, or just be on their own in relation to Rome and their local Bishop sans any sort of umbrella organization for the time being. To be honest though, if that was a major concern, a move likely would have been made some time ago.

Some may indeed wait until the report from the Apostolic Visitation comes out, but I suspect there will those already planning a move prior to that. The orders who are doing a good job of being faithful to their vows and to the Church likely know it. Most of the data collection for that study was self reported by the individual congregations in the first place.
Most people out there can’t tell the difference. Many Catholics can’t tell the difference. The news media certainly can’t, or perhaps won’t care to.
That is the part that bugs me the most. If they are going to go that route, at least have the decency to explain things openly so that the faithful are not led astray in the process.
 
My point is very simple. Those female religious who are associated with LCWR are going to be lumped in with them in terms of popular opinion among Catholics who care about fidelity to the Church, whether they want to be or not.
The LCWR itself is adding to the confusion (throwing fuel on the fire). They are portraying this as an attack on the work done by the Sisters in the various congregations. At worst, it is an “attack” on the umbrella organization whose main “work” is lobbying, conferencing and activism. While those may be worthy endeavors, they are not directly related, for good or bad, with the work of the sisters themselves.
 
KSU,

Interesting post. I’ve found many faithful Catholics here. The witness is important, because there are many things creeping into the lives of Catholics in the general population. There seems, at times, to be disconnect between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Catholics are actually doing.

Yet, Catholics are quick to jump on the “evils” of Anglicanism. The reality is that secularism is making inroads into Christendom. The fight for orthodoxy should be a common one. Instead of pointing fingers at one another, we should stand in unity in every way possible.

Anna
Of course, my friend, that is obvious. The root of the problem has always been whose “orthodoxy” are we supposed to unite behind–King Henry’s or Thomas More’s? One side has to change its orthodoxy before we can reverse the divorce. In the meantime, I wish the two sides would publicly and very loudly agree on a list of secular inroads we can unite to fight. Perhaps even some Protestants would join in.

Wouldn’t an ORTHODXY NETWORK of our own start to put the fear of God into NETWORK? Are you listening USCCB?
 
Example: benedictinewomen.org/

This monastery went “non-canonical.” They are self-supporting and they have fellowships for women from all backgrounds in order to attract new members. They have simply blended into the “new-agey” background that exists “on the ground” in the USA.
[Just a side-comment, but should I really be that surprised they seem to have a priestess who leads their Sunday service?]

How about a Dame Judi Dench (as M from Bond) comment? “In the old days if an agent did something that embarrassing he’d have a good sense to defect”. It seems that we have something similar amongst Catholic here. Go to 1900s (at the latest), and people who had large disagreements would just outright leave and go somewhere they felt was “true-er” (or found their own). Nowadays, it seems that dissident Catholics never want to leave the Church but they still want something closer to Protestantism.

It boggles my mind. Why do people want to stay in a Church they don’t agree with and has repeatably said it’s not going to change (and practically speaking they have no ability to actually change anything themselves either)? I know it’s not kosher (or PC or pastoral) to say so, but you do have to give some credit to people who will at least go the full 10 yards and just leave. At least you know they’ve thought things through and have actually used their brain and made a choice and followed through, something which many people seem to fundamentally lack the ability to do.

If you’re going to stay Catholic, then be Catholic. Sometimes there are legitimate discussions to be had, but the public arena or the media is not the place for them. At the end of the day, obedience is always paramount. As Br. JR said in a thread about the SSPX:
We will not get to heaven on our opinions, but only on our obedience.
And that’s because we are to follow Christ, whose Obedience even unto death gave us victory over sin and death, including the original sin, which was disobedience.
 
I know the congregations and the LCWR are not the same. I have made that distinction repeatedly. Whether they, or you, like it or not, they are lumped together by their own action, or lack thereof. There has been another option created by the Vatican for 20 years. The fact that many if not most, congregations of women’s religious have chosen to stay where they are is telling, regardless of whether they are in the news promoting dissent, or otherwise.

I don’t even waste my time with groups like that. My only concern with them is that by putting “OSB” after their names continuing to have Oblates, they are likely confusing the faithful in the area who come into contact with them. If they wanted to leave the Church, that is their decision. However, they should at least have the decency to stop pretending to be consecrated religious.
There’s one big, big thing that has to be recognized here that’s not being recognized.

The US has changed sociologically from what it was just a few decades ago. I don’t know how old you are, Jason. But not so long ago, the prevailing “commonsense framework” was, for the most part, one single thing and you could pretty well know what was going on simply from watching the evening news or looking at the evening paper. It was pretty much the same for everyone across the country. We all watched the same shows. We all played the same games. If you said something about Ed Sullivan or Laugh In, everyone knew what you were talking about immediately. We all had more or less the same take on many things. That’s all gone now. Mass media fractured along about 1975-1985 and the fracture has only deepened since then. Some people and organizations “get” that and some don’t.

Nowadays, there are levels of influence. Now, I’m speaking only sociologically here.
You can do something nationally or internationally from a vantage point at the top, but it doesn’t necessarily connect with peoples’ understandings or lives farther down because it doesn’t address the total reality on the ground. I mean, an idea can be completely true on the international or national, and be true on the ground too, of course because truth is like that, but it still might not connect in a way that resounds to people in their lives. Thus, you have to be aware of all the levels of influence that there are, to bring the idea across to people and indeed, to know what’s going on:
  1. international & national which are usually hooked in some way, but not always
  2. associated with a personality or celebrity who people may or may not understand or even agree with
  3. political - in terms of political action groups, lobbying, grants, persons of influence, etc.
  4. organizational - like a person’s school or doctor’s office or library
  5. technology communications - like the internet, iphone apps etc.
  6. personal communications - as in “I know this person or I found such and such” where i am
This stuff doesn’t work together in concert, so to speak “on the same page” like it used to work. People now expect to be exposed to a “flood” of information which they manage as quickly and efficiently as they can, and they usually apply things in an AD HOC personal manner even as they recognize the truth or falsity of some ideas and “bracket” them for themselves, as they come across them. [You hope Catholics bracket the Right Ones, correct?]

Thus, if an idea is to catch hold and prosper among people, all of these levels have to be worked. For instance, business in the US has caught onto this. That’s why they do national, regional and local campaigns. They have celebrity spokespersons. They spend vast amounts to monitor and manage the blogging world. They do focus groups and studies as well as surveys on all the levels and in-home research. They get it. It’s only business and that’s a limited thing by definition because it’s not about truth and people don’t usually consent to giving their lives for it, but it’s instructive anyway. They get it.

The Church writ large is catching onto this, slowly but steadily. We’re now seeing not only the old standby, the encyclical. We’re seeing books of real theology directed at the commercial market by the pope. We have celebrity popes and cardinals. We have a webpage. The Vatican recently hosted a blogger’s gathering and just recently we were exhorted to get out there and pitch in with blogs in the US. CAF is here (Yay!) We’re doing evangelism classes in parishes. Etc etc. However, some of the groups inside the church, like the LCWR, right or wrong, are marginally ahead of the church writ large on understanding this dynamic politically and on the ground. And many laypeople are even farther behind than the institutional church on understanding all this, even though they may be taking part in it in a phenomenological way.

NOTE: In a world like this, anybody can get away with calling themselves OFX or OSM or ABC or anything as long as they target their appeals correctly. Also they may try using OSB or OSF if they think that no one will come after them for whatever reason. They can not only do it, they can prosper. I give you exhibit A: religiousresources.org/directory/cat.php?cat_id=39 Some are real orders. Some are not. Can you pick out the “fake” ones?
 
KSU;9213419:
Just a few minutes ago my heart fell when I opened the link zab was good enough to provide in his post #255 regarding the current Sisters of Saint Joseph. Included in their web site was NETWORK’s purely Democratic Party platform for national and local activity under the usual Peace and Justice disguise. Included in the legislative agenda was a plea to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act with additional provisions that would accommodate same-sex couples and illegal immigrants.
CORRECTION: The new Congregation formerly known as the Sisters of Saint Joseph of Nazareth, Michigan (I think I posted WI in error somewhere) was formed from a combination of 7 Congregations of SSJ/CSJ. Their website is csjoseph.org

It is all still rather confusing to me, but the website of U.S.Federation of the Sisters of Saint Joseph states that it is made of of 17 Congregations of Sisters of Saint Joseph including the above mentioned new Congregation who are considered “conservative” but did have “a radical fringe”. There are still many sisters today who suffer persecution that most people are unaware. Most of what we hear about revolves around defending or opposing “the radical fringe” We seldom hear of the many faithful Nuns and Sisters who humbly and faithfully live out their vocations. They deserve our prayers and admiration.
 
That is the part that bugs me the most. If they are going to go that route, at least have the decency to explain things openly so that the faithful are not led astray in the process.
This seems not very decent to me either, Jason, but a lot of things about this seem less than decent to me, so there you are.
 
KSU;9213419 said:
It is all still rather confusing to me, but the website of U.S.Federation of the Sisters of Saint Joseph states that it is made of of 17 Congregations of Sisters of Saint Joseph including the above mentioned new Congregation who are considered “conservative” but did have “a radical fringe”. There are still many sisters today who suffer persecution that most people are unaware. Most of what we hear about revolves around defending or opposing “the radical fringe” We seldom hear of the many faithful Nuns and Sisters who humbly and faithfully live out their vocations. They deserve our prayers and admiration.

The old and the current–a difference without distinction.
 
I predict that the LCWR will not respond favorably and that we will see a move towards the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious among congregations in the US. If Sister Chittister, Keehan, etc. have their way they will move to be a secular organization. What will not happen is that they will poll their own constituents within LCWR to see what they want to organization to be. Which, if they were really concerned about representing women’s religious instead of promoting their political agenda, they would do.

What I do not think Sr. Chittister understands is that if LCWR is no longer identifiable as a Catholic organization, they are going to see two things dry up significantly. The first one is their money. Oh, they might see a short term boost from secular feminists around the country, but that will be short lived when they are not front page news anymore. The second thing which will dry up is their influence. The fact that they can currently claim to be Catholic is what gets them invited to the White House, to Congress, etc. and what allows them to provide political cover for politicians wishing to push an agenda which might otherwise be openly resisted by the faithful. It is also what causes news reporters to put them on TV or interview them every time something about the Church shows up in the news. If that organization is no longer Catholic, they are just one more liberal feminist movement and they will likely lose their seat at the table.
jwinch2, I think these are really insightful comments.
 
The LCWR itself is adding to the confusion (throwing fuel on the fire). They are portraying this as an attack on the work done by the Sisters in the various congregations.
Agreed. They are playing the victim, which is actually a pre-meditated tactic. It is scripted victimhood, and they are the actresses.They’ve done this in the past. Remember all of those exhaustive “listening sessions” by Bishops during the 80’s, when the topic of women’s ordination would come up they were to run from the room in tears, which they did in numerous locations. They were all coached beforehand.

They are very sav vy, and know what type of psychological manipulation creates the type of results that they want. They are also very clever this way with the media. They will be portraying themselves as victims.
 
Agreed. They are playing the victim, which is actually a pre-meditated tactic. It is scripted victimhood, and they are the actresses.They’ve done this in the past. Remember all of those exhaustive “listening sessions” by Bishops during the 80’s, when the topic of women’s ordination would come up they were to run from the room in tears, which they did in numerous locations. They were all coached beforehand.

They are very sav vy, and know what type of psychological manipulation creates the type of results that they want. They are also very clever this way with the media. They will be portraying themselves as victims.
The delicious irony of a woman who claims men and women are identical, claiming to have a case of the “vapors”, and being overcome with emotion.
 
Agreed. They are playing the victim, which is actually a pre-meditated tactic. It is scripted victimhood, and they are the actresses.They’ve done this in the past. Remember all of those exhaustive “listening sessions” by Bishops during the 80’s, when the topic of women’s ordination would come up they were to run from the room in tears, which they did in numerous locations. They were all coached beforehand.
That is interesting. Do you have any sort of documentation of that situation? I’m not doubting, I would just like to have a record of it and also learn more about it.
 
That is interesting. Do you have any sort of documentation of that situation? I’m not doubting, I would just like to have a record of it and also learn more about it.
jwinch, I wish I had some documentation. I was thinking that as I wrote. I know you’re not doubting it, but it is just a recollection that I have. It was something that was generally known and experienced at the time. I will look to see if I can find anything.
 
Agreed. They are playing the victim, which is actually a pre-meditated tactic. It is scripted victimhood, and they are the actresses.They’ve done this in the past. Remember all of those exhaustive “listening sessions” by Bishops during the 80’s, when the topic of women’s ordination would come up they were to run from the room in tears, which they did in numerous locations. They were all coached beforehand.

They are very sav vy, and know what type of psychological manipulation creates the type of results that they want. They are also very clever this way with the media. They will be portraying themselves as victims.
This? georgiabulletin.org/local/1988/11/10/a/
 
I hope and pray that this really helps the nuns here in the United States. Hopefully they will become more orthodox and will focus more on things like abortion and “gay marriage” rather than things that are less important.
 
I hope and pray that this really helps the nuns here in the United States. Hopefully they will become more orthodox and will focus more on things like abortion and “gay marriage” rather than things that are less important.
Holly, I hope so too, but it will take a very big miracle. If you’ve been around long enough to know how deeply they are into some of these objectionable things, you’ll understand what I mean. They have invested way too much to just give it up without major graces of conversion. Many of them have devoted the majority of their lives, even 40+ years, to promoting things that directly oppose Church teaching.

What I don’t understand is what took so long for them to be corrected.
 
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