Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[hudson]

You have me confused with another poster. I wasn’t me… "As your earlier posts indicated, many of these congregations floundered in the past few decades without their original mission of teaching in Catholic schools or nursing in Catholic hospitals.

Traditional Catholics seem to be taking great delight in all this. I will say it again. This is not the mind of Christ. The church is imploding and some wont be happy until the day comes when the only folks left in the pews are traditional Catholics who believe the Vatican can do no wrong. People are leaving, especially the marginalized. If this continues…who will foot the bills? Rich traditionalists? The pope?

The Church is doing great with all of these steps. You can really see the Holy Spirit working to correct all the craziness that has been going on. There has not been a time in my life I have been more excited and delighted to be a Catholic. Think i will increase my donations this weekend.

 

[Corki]

You have me confused with another poster. I wasn’t me… "As your earlier posts indicated, many of these congregations floundered in the past few decades without their original mission of teaching in Catholic schools or nursing in Catholic hospitals.

I appologize, it wasn’t you. However, it was mentioned earlier in this thread - post #70.

Traditional Catholics seem to be taking great delight in all this. I will say it again. This is not the mind of Christ. The church is imploding and some wont be happy until the day comes when the only folks left in the pews are traditional Catholics who believe the Vatican can do no wrong.

I agree there is a feeling of vengefulness in some of the reactions. We need to be prayerful that this reform goes well, rather than gloat that it was overdue. In fairness, how many of those who are happy now, were crying or throwing things at their televisions when some of these sisters were courted by the media as if they represented the Church and then say them twist Church teaching into something unrecognizable?

People are leaving, especially the marginalized.

What approach to the sisters would have kept this from happening? These are some of the same sisters who taught in the Catholic schools of the 60s and 70s that left us with a whole generation of poorly catechized Cathlics.

If this continues…who will foot the bills? Rich traditionalists? The pope?

I would say that we are ALL already footing the spiritual bill that has come due. But which bills are you referring to?

 

[Anna_Claire]

The Church is doing great with all of these steps. You can really see the Holy Spirit working to correct all the craziness that has been going on. There has not been a time in my life I have been more excited and delighted to be a Catholic. Think i will increase my donations this weekend.

Well good for you…

 

[iloveangels]

Well good for you…

Well, Anna Claire, this is how a very large number of people feel. I’m not endorsing it, one way or the other, but it is a fact that they feel this way.

 

[iloveangels]

Jason, BTW, I just noticed that the teaching sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, who were just founded recently, also use the initials O.P. Not all the sisters using O.P. are contemplative nuns or members of the Dominican Second Order. This new group of teaching sisters just founded will be a congregation, institute or society since Rules of Orders are no longer approved in Rome–remember the last approved rule was the Jesuits. So there is some initial “spread.”

And at any rate, all that aside, some groups belong to both the LCWR and the CMSWR. It’s allowed.

 

[iloveangels]

And who speaks for Christ in the world? The last time I checked, it was His bride the Church. Or was Jesus lying when he said to His apostles, “he who hears you, hears me”?

Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to advocate openly for female ordination? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to openly support abortion? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to contradict Church teaching on contraception? Do you think it is OK for some women religious to support homosexual marriage? Do you really think it is OK for some women religious to be disobedient to the teachings of Christ’s Church on earth?

Because those things are happening and have been for a long time. In my own parish we have a religious sister who does fantastic work in the community in many ways. However, she also openly supports women’s ordination, homosexual marriage, and abortion. In addition, she was teaching these beliefs to children in a Catholic school setting.

Take Sister Joan Chittister, OSB for example. She is a Benedictine sister. Here is what it says in the beginning of the section on obedience in the Rule of Saint Benedict:

Jason, don’t let Sr. Joan bug you too much. As you probably know better than I do, the Benedictines are a federation of monasteries, and the individual monasteries can vary a great deal.

There’s also the business of “initials spread.” It appears that it’s possible to bear the initials of an order legally while belonging to a rather less (or more) disciplined group within an order, congregation, institute or society. This was the essence of my pointing out the teaching sisters using the initials O.P. The initials O.P. were originally only used for the 1st and 2nd orders of the Dominican family…the original orders. The second order of Dominicans is exclusively contemplative nuns, NOT teaching sisters. All the Dominican sister schoolteaching business came much later and these are other groups in the Dominican family, like the Sinsinawa Dominicans in Michigan. We have similar things in the Franciscan family.

 

[Corki]

The church is imploding

The Church is doing great with all of these steps. You can really see the Holy Spirit working to correct all the craziness that has been going on. There has not been a time in my life I have been more excited and delighted to be a Catholic. Think i will increase my donations this weekend.

How is it that we have such a divergence in views on what is happening in our Church? Is it geographical, age, something else?

While I consider myself a traditionalist in terms of my preferred form of Mass, I am not what you would call a traditional Catholic in other ways. I saw the Church in the 60s and 70s primarily through the lens of Catholic schools. In the 80s, I drifted but am seeing the 90s, 00s and now the 10s through the lens of my parish. In my lifetime, things have certainly gone from “ok” (guitar Masses) to “bad” (clergy scandal) to “much improved” (new Evangalization).

I think, in many ways Vatican II was a “course correction” for the Church. But just like a boat, it’s possible to go too far in the other direction and we surely saw that in some of the crazy things done “in the spirit of Vatican II”. We should not ever be complacent - and this includes our women religious. We all should be open to a little course correction when we go too far to one side or another.

 

[Corki]

Well, Anna Claire, this is how a very large number of people feel. I’m not endorsing it, one way or the other, but it is a fact that they feel this way.

I think it’s just human nature to get more involved with the Church, whether that’s at the parish, national or global level, when you feel your money and time is being used in the right direction.

 

[iloveangels]

How is it that we have such a divergence in views on what is happening in our Church? Is it geographical, age, something else?

While I consider myself a traditionalist in terms of my preferred form of Mass, I am not what you would call a traditional Catholic in other ways. I saw the Church in the 60s and 70s primarily through the lens of Catholic schools. In the 80s, I drifted but am seeing the 90s, 00s and now the 10s through the lens of my parish. In my lifetime, things have certainly gone from “ok” (guitar Masses) to “bad” (clergy scandal) to “much improved” (new Evangalization).

I think, in many ways Vatican II was a “course correction” for the Church. But just like a boat, it’s possible to go too far in the other direction and we surely saw that in some of the crazy things done “in the spirit of Vatican II”. We should not ever be complacent - and this includes our women religious. We all should be open to a little course correction when we go too far to one side or another.

I suspect it’s a lot of things. Catholics aren’t united very well to each other. After all, most Catholics, if they even come to mass with any regularity, only show up for 45 minutes once and week and barely speak to each other. You can’t hold an organization together like that, especially one as large and complicated as the Catholic church.

This situation that we have–barely speaking to each other and just making assumptions about each other–is not the historical situation of the Catholic church. It’s new to the 20th century. If we want to keep the Church alive in the US, we’d better do something about this. Now would be a good time.

 

[iloveangels]

I think it’s just human nature to get more involved with the Church, whether that’s at the parish, national or global level, when you feel your money and time is being used in the right direction.

This is true, but most Catholics honestly don’t put much on the line. Catholics tend to be very stingy with money, but even more so with time and attention.

I’ll tell you what: Laypeople are having a lot of fun tromping all over the sisters, just like they had a field day with the priests, but wait til it’s their turn. What goes around comes around. Laypeople aren’t doing their job either.

 

[jwinch2]

Jason, don’t let Sr. Joan bug you too much. As you probably know better than I do, the Benedictines are a federation of monasteries, and the individual monasteries can vary a great deal.

There’s also the business of “initials spread.” It appears that it’s possible to bear the initials of an order legally while belonging to a rather less (or more) disciplined group within an order, congregation, institute or society. This was the essence of my pointing out the teaching sisters using the initials O.P. The initials O.P. were originally only used for the 1st and 2nd orders of the Dominican family…the original orders. The second order of Dominicans is exclusively contemplative nuns, NOT teaching sisters. All the Dominican sister schoolteaching business came much later and these are other groups in the Dominican family, like the Sinsinawa Dominicans in Michigan. We have similar things in the Franciscan family.

Agreed. In addition, the apostolic sisters are a bit more loosely organized under the successor to Dominic than are the friars, nuns, or laity. One of the frustrating things about this issue is that those major orders who do have the structure have not taken more concrete steps towards addressing these issues internally.

As for Benedictines, yes it varies from monastery to monastery. However, they all make vows in terms of following the Rule of Saint Benedict. Unlike some other religious societies that you have pointed out, they do have a Rule to follow and almost 1500 years of interpretation of that Rule within the life of the Church to fall back on.

 

[iloveangels]

Agreed. In addition, the apostolic sisters are a bit more loosely organized under the successor to Dominic than are the friars, nuns, or laity. One of the frustrating things about this issue is that those major orders who do have the structure have not taken more concrete steps towards addressing these issues internally.

As for Benedictines, yes it varies from monastery to monastery. However, they all make vows in terms of following the Rule of Saint Benedict. Unlike some other religious societies that you have pointed out, they do have a Rule to follow and almost 1500 years of interpretation of that Rule within the life of the Church to fall back on.

Well, in general terms, they can’t address the situation because an Order is an Order and a Congregation is a Congregation and they don’t have jurisdiction over each other. I assume they could get more possessive or even legal about the initials and that would certainly be a good idea at this point, but they can’t over-rule each other in a general way even if they are all “followers to some degree” of St. Dominic or Francis or whatever.

Yes, but vows are interesting. People take wedding vows too. Don’t get me wrong: vows are important, but some people have trouble with them and they don’t always guarantee a lot over an entire life unless something that’s very difficult to measure and predict is also there. Careful sifting through of vocations is the key. Following up with appropriate formation is a key. Sensible expectations are a key. All of these, as in marriage, are very difficult to provide and guarantee. And of course, the sound and careful cultivation of a spiritual life of prayer and obedience is crucial. All this is a constant work for organizations of religious, or if it isn’t, it needs to be.

I will tell you one of the things that we should be learning from this. Setting up orders of sisters for how they look, or what they do for us is a very serious mistake. Women religious are not slaves of the laity, nor are they a workforce that we should be trying to take advantage of. Catholic laity are just lazy and they’ve been allowed to be. That should end. The laity needs to stop trying to get someone else to do their work, their holiness, their prayer and their spiritual lives for them. Women religious are important and can be a huge force for the church, but they are not some kind of barbie doll robot in a habit any more than the friars and monks are, and it’s about time the laity caught onto that.

Like I said before, this is a sad situation, and there’s more than enough blame to go around.

 

[jwinch2]

Well, in general terms, they can’t address the situation because an Order is an Order and a Congregation is a Congregation and they don’t have jurisdiction over each other. I assume they could get more possessive or even legal about the initials and that would certainly be a good idea at this point, but they can’t over-rule each other in a general way even if they are all “followers to some degree” of St. Dominic or Francis or whatever.

The Dominicans certainly can. Franciscans are more complexly organized in general, as you are well aware.

Yes, but vows are interesting. People take wedding vows too. Don’t get me wrong: vows are important, but some people have trouble with them and they don’t always guarantee a lot over an entire life unless something that’s very difficult to measure and predict is also there. Careful sifting through of vocations is the key. Following up with appropriate formation is a key. Sensible expectations are a key. All of these, as in marriage, are very difficult to provide and guarantee. And of course, the sound and careful cultivation of a spiritual life of prayer and obedience is crucial. All this is a constant work for organizations of religious, or if it isn’t, it needs to be.

In orders where there is a rule, regular apostolic visitation is probably a good idea. In addition, when you have groups who are more loosely affiliated with a major order, regular discussion between the order and the affiliates on their status would seem to be prudent as well.

I will tell you one of the things that we should be learning from this. Setting up orders of sisters for how they look, or what they do for us is a very serious mistake. Women religious are not slaves of the laity, nor are they a workforce that we should be trying to take advantage of. Catholic laity are just lazy and they’ve been allowed to be. That should end. The laity needs to stop trying to get someone else to do their work, their holiness, their prayer and their spiritual lives for them. Women religious are important and can be a huge force for the church, but they are not some kind of barbie doll robot in a habit any more than the friars and monks are, and it’s about time the laity caught onto that.

I agree to a point. The faithful have a right to expect that their priests, bishops, and religious act like they are who they are. Yes, getting bent out of shape because religious don’t wear a habit when their constitutions call for otherwise is wrong. However, noting that some who’s constitutions do call for wearing a habit do not is not wrong. Noting that some religious who were founded as a eucharistic adoration society stopped that and moved into social work is not wrong. Stifling discussion and debate on unsettled issues of theology would be wrong. Pointing out that some issues have been settled and are therefore not up for debate is not wrong.

As for the rest, I reject the idea that the laity are lazy. With a shortage of priests and the decline in the numbers of religious involved in parishes, the Catholic Church would collapse under its own weight were it not for the involvement of the laity. One could argue that the laity have become complacent and set in their ways, but lazy? I don’t think so. There will always be some who get involved and some who do not. Those who don’t will sit back and complain about how everything is run by the same people. However, that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It shows up in pretty much every organization on the planet.

 

[iloveangels]

Agreed. In addition, the apostolic sisters are a bit more loosely organized under the successor to Dominic than are the friars, nuns, or laity. One of the frustrating things about this issue is that those major orders who do have the structure have not taken more concrete steps towards addressing these issues internally.

They can’t, Jason. An order is an order and a congregation is a congregation. They’re separate organizations under canon law and they can’t over-rule each other. I mean, the orders proper could get more possessive or even legal about the initials that follow their names, and that would be a good idea at this point, but they can’t simply forbid other Catholics from using the names of the Saints.

As for Benedictines, yes it varies from monastery to monastery. However, they all make vows in terms of following the Rule of Saint Benedict. Unlike some other religious societies that you have pointed out, they do have a Rule to follow and almost 1500 years of interpretation of that Rule within the life of the Church to fall back on.

Vows are an interesting thing. They have to be supported by careful sorting through of vocations to make sure that candidates can live the vows for a lifetime. And then they have to be reinforced with sound formation, and supported in a climate of prayer and sound spiritual growth for a lifetime. This can be very challenging for religious orders over decades.

Also, the laity have got to learn that setting up orders of women religious for how they look or what they can do for the laity for cheap, is going to end in failure. The laity need to realize that they have to do some of the work for themselves, that they need a prayer life and a spirituality for themselves and that they have to contribute. They can’t rely on an army of cute little nuns in habits, who’ll work for next to nothing, to do that for them. It doesn’t work that way.

 

[iloveangels]

The Dominicans certainly can. Franciscans are more complexly organized in general, as you are well aware.
In orders where there is a rule, regular apostolic visitation is probably a good idea. In addition, when you have groups who are more loosely affiliated with a major order, regular discussion between the order and the affiliates on their status would seem to be prudent as well.
I agree to a point. The faithful have a right to expect that their priests, bishops, and religious act like they are who they are. Yes, getting bent out of shape because religious don’t wear a habit when their constitutions call for otherwise is wrong. However, noting that some who’s constitutions do call for wearing a habit do not is not wrong. Noting that some religious who were founded as a eucharistic adoration society stopped that and moved into social work is not wrong. Stifling discussion and debate on unsettled issues of theology would be wrong. Pointing out that some issues have been settled and are therefore not up for debate is not wrong.

Jason, the Dominicans are a very tight organization in general compared to some of the others, and the congregations of Dominican sisters might be able to be socially pressured to some degree to conform to a certain standard as a result, but the 1st order, the Dominican Friars, I think you would be surprised to find out, cannot dictate to the Sinsinawa Dominicans how to run their houses or their apostolates. The S. Dominican sisters are teaching sisters who belong to a congregation that isn’t connected canonically to the 1st order. I believe that they’re probably also Pontifical Right, but I could be wrong on that.

As for the rest, I reject the idea that the laity are lazy. With a shortage of priests and the decline in the numbers of religious involved in parishes, the Catholic Church would collapse under its own weight were it not for the involvement of the laity. One could argue that the laity have become complacent and set in their ways, but lazy? I don’t think so. There will always be some who get involved and some who do not. Those who don’t will sit back and complain about how everything is run by the same people. However, that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It shows up in pretty much every organization on the planet.

The laity are very, very lazy. As an example, the priests have to give the announcements before the blessing in this part of the country because if they don’t, the laity will get out of the building before he can read them. The laity just do not want to allot time for it. They also don’t study their faith and many of them are woefully ignorant about it. Just look around the Catholic world and observe for a bit. You’ll see.

PS. Although I am a Catholic convert, I am the granddaughter of protestant minister. You can do more with 70 protestants in any given week than you can with 1000 Catholics in a month. Catholics tend to be cheap and lazy. It’s a constant source of frustration for converts.

PPS. You know those little bitty Protestant churches everywhere? They often have only 100 congregants, yet they support the minister and his family, keep the church up, pay the bills and staff the place all by themselves, bible studies, Sunday school and all. I don’t recommend them because of course I’m Catholic, but no one can fault them for not trying. They are not lazy.

 

[curlycool89]

PS. Although I am a Catholic convert, I am the granddaughter of protestant minister. You can do more with 70 protestants in any given week than you can with 1000 Catholics in a month. Catholics tend to be cheap and lazy. It’s a constant source of frustration for converts.

PPS. You know those little bitty Protestant churches everywhere? They often have only 100 congregants, yet they support the minister, keep the church up, pay the bills and staff the place all by themselves, bible studies, Sunday school and all. I don’t recommend them because of course I’m Catholic, but no one can fault them for not trying. They are not lazy.

Aye, what can we do? There is a reason that most Catholic parishes have older women in most positions (parish councils, EMHCs, readers, office staff, catechesis, etc); it’s because they’re often the only ones who will volunteer.

This might be more of a western Canadian thing, but the young people are especially apathetic and lazy. I was involved with the Campus Ministry and Newman club at the local Catholic college and getting people to even come out to things is difficult. Trying to get a half-dozen people to volunteer for anything requires you to nearly have to move Heaven and earth.

Sure, there is a noticeable change of very orthodox young Catholics, and some of them are willing to get involved, but not even all of them are willing. I think what really needs to happen is that parents need to get involved, and they need to impart to their children the importance of getting involved. If kids are brought up apathetic to everything, guess what: they’re going to be apathetic.

 

[iloveangels]

Aye, what can we do? There is a reason that most Catholic parishes have older women in most positions (parish councils, EMHCs, readers, office staff, catechesis, etc); it’s because they’re often the only ones who will volunteer.

This might be more of a western Canadian thing, but the young people are especially apathetic and lazy. I was involved with the Campus Ministry and Newman club at the local Catholic college and getting people to even come out to things is difficult. Trying to get a half-dozen people to volunteer for anything requires you to nearly have to move Heaven and earth.

Sure, there is a noticeable change of very orthodox young Catholics, and some of them are willing to get involved, but not even all of them are willing. I think what really needs to happen is that parents need to get involved, and they need to impart to their children the importance of getting involved. If kids are brought up apathetic to everything, guess what: they’re going to be apathetic.

The problem since Vatican II may be one of purpose. Catholics think that just showing up “often enough to stay out of trouble” is good enough. Somebody needs to tell them that if they don’t get off their rear ends that they can go to hell just as easily as anybody else. Religion doesn’t do you one bit of good if you don’t live it. And they should throw in the fact that you can’t farm it out if you don’t want to do it yourself either. It doesn’t work that way.

 

[bcuster]

I feel sad that some of these nuns have turned their back on the teachings of the Catholic church and I will pray for them that they once again start down God’s right path.

I agree with this totally. This is a time of increased grace for these women religious, a time to reflect on their choices, and a time for reconciliation. I pray that they will draw close to the Lord and hear His voice.

 

[Elizium23]

The laity are very, very lazy. As an example, the priests have to give the announcements before the blessing in this part of the country because if they don’t, the laity will get out of the building before he can read them. The laity just do not want to allot time for it. They also don’t study their faith and many of them are woefully ignorant about it. Just look around the Catholic world and observe for a bit. You’ll see.

Firstly I don’t think these anecdotes are good examples of laziness. Secondly, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Chapter II, Part D section 90a, provides for brief announcements during the concluding rites, and this is not an adaptation for the USA, this is a global prescription for the whole Church. If priests in other parts of the world do not take advantage of it then perhaps they consider their parishioners to be especially attentive to bulletins or other notices posted, but I would not assume the presence of absence of laziness based on this example.

Furthermore, as far as faithfulness goes, I have a good friend who lives in Spain, and we frequently have discussions about the difference between our perceptions of the Church. She is a convert to Catholicism from atheist parents, and she rejects many critical Church teachings and the authority of the heirarchy. She only attends Mass if the choir is needed, and in the five years I have known her, she maybe has been to Confession once. She tells me that this is the norm for her parishioners and her Catholic friends in Spain. She has come to the USA for a visit and she viewed American Catholics with apprehension for pious practices, and has used words such as “extremist” to characterize our faith. I take all this as a great compliment for myself and all the Catholics still in the pews on Sundays (not to mention daily Mass) so I don’t think that American Catholicism is as lost as you say it is.

 

[curlycool89]

The problem since Vatican II may be one of purpose. Catholics think that just showing up “often enough to stay out of trouble” is good enough. Somebody needs to tell them that if they don’t get off their rear ends that they can go to hell just as easily as anybody else. Religion doesn’t do you one bit of good if you don’t live it. And they should throw in the fact that you can’t farm it out if you don’t want to do it yourself either. It doesn’t work that way.

It’s hard to tell which one is more of a problem sometimes: pride or sloth. Or does the pride lead to the sloth?

Probably a little greed too. Only God knows how much people complain about how “the Church doesn’t help the poor” (which if patently false) while refusing to financially support the Church’s efforts.

Furthermore, as far as faithfulness goes, I have a good friend who lives in Spain, and we frequently have discussions about the difference between our perceptions of the Church. She is a convert to Catholicism from atheist parents, and she rejects many critical Church teachings and the authority of the heirarchy. She only attends Mass if the choir is needed, and in the five years I have known her, she maybe has been to Confession once. She tells me that this is the norm for her parishioners and her Catholic friends in Spain. She has come to the USA for a visit and she viewed American Catholics with apprehension for pious practices, and has used words such as “extremist” to characterize our faith. I take all this as a great compliment for myself and all the Catholics still in the pews on Sundays (not to mention daily Mass) so I don’t think that American Catholicism is as lost as you say it is.

That’s just sad.

I think this is what happens though when people loose sight of their relationship with Jesus (which is fundamental to our faith).