Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

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I think you’re absolutely right on all counts. The Lord never said the last days would be easy for the church.

I am wondering whether this particular religious organization will accept Vatican authority over it or whether they will leave the RCC. Also, I wonder if they refuse to submit, whether it will result in a mass excommunication of all 57,000 members? I’m not sure how that works in the RCC. I am suspecting many of its members will bolt to liberal mainline Protestant churches, though I am sure some will submit to the clergy.
Iggy,

The thought of some leaving to join more liberal Churches is very disturbing. I think part of what is happening in The Episcopal Church is that conservatives are leaving and liberals, both churched and unchurched, are entering. This is one of the ways a Church is hijacked.
 
Iggy,

The thought of some leaving to join more liberal Churches is very disturbing. I think part of what is happening in The Episcopal Church is that conservatives are leaving and liberals, both churched and unchurched, are entering. This is one of the ways a Church is hijacked.
True, but on the other hand, the ECUSA is dying. Both membership wise and financially. I would not be surprised at all if in 50-100 years, the liberal Protestant churches will be non-existent.
 
Iggy,

The thought of some leaving to join more liberal Churches is very disturbing. I think part of what is happening in The Episcopal Church is that conservatives are leaving and liberals, both churched and unchurched, are entering. This is one of the ways a Church is hijacked.
i agree. i am a conservative who left the episcopal church/anglican church to become Catholic and was surprised at how many liberal lay Catholics that are hoping someday the Church will bend to their way of thinking.
i am glad the investigation took place and the resulting crackdown is taking place. it was probably long overdue.
 
Ah that’s what happened. This thread went wonky for a while. 😃
Yep. I saw that there were two decent threads going on the same thing and that this one had beat mine by a couple of hours in getting started so I figured we might as well merge them.

I concur with many of the comments made in this thread as well. As I noted above, I am actually more happy to see this than I was to see a potential SSPX return. So many of the faithful have been scandalized throughout the last few decades due to these women who flat out lost their way. Someone in this thread said something about thousands of people. I would guess we are talking hundreds of thousands if not in the millions of people who have had their faith damaged in some way by these women.

Its very sad when you consider the many wonderful nuns and sisters who have kept the faith. They often get painted with the same brush.

In case anyone is not aware, there is another organization of superiors of women religious in America, the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR).

Among their stated goals:
  • to establish collaboration among major superiors who desire it,
  • to serve as a channel of communication among major superiors,
  • to provide a forum for participation, dialogue, and education on the patrimony of the Church’s teaching on religious life,
  • to promote unity among major superiors, thus testifying to their union with the Magisterium and their love for Christ’s Vicar on earth, and,
  • to coordinate active cooperation with the USCCB.
With everything that has gone on with the LCWR and their affiliates, it is nice to remember that there is an organization of women religious out there dedicated to being faithful to the Magesterium and the Holy Father.

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=35848

This article, which I posted before the thread merger does a nice job of discussing the current situation between the CDF and the LCWR.
regnumnovum.com/2012/04/18/lets-be-sober-about-the-lcwr-assessment/

Peace,
 
In case anyone is not aware, there is another organization of superiors of women religious in America, the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR).

Among their stated goals:
  • to establish collaboration among major superiors who desire it,
  • to serve as a channel of communication among major superiors,
  • to provide a forum for participation, dialogue, and education on the patrimony of the Church’s teaching on religious life,
  • to promote unity among major superiors, thus testifying to their union with the Magisterium and their love for Christ’s Vicar on earth, and,
  • to coordinate active cooperation with the USCCB.
With everything that has gone on with the LCWR and their affiliates, it is nice to remember that there is an organization of women religious out there dedicated to being faithful to the Magesterium and the Holy Father.
 
Yep. I saw that there were two decent threads going on the same thing and that this one had beat mine by a couple of hours in getting started so I figured we might as well merge them.

I concur with many of the comments made in this thread as well. As I noted above, I am actually more happy to see this than I was to see a potential SSPX return. So many of the faithful have been scandalized throughout the last few decades due to these women who flat out lost their way. Someone in this thread said something about thousands of people. I would guess we are talking hundreds of thousands if not in the millions of people who have had their faith damaged in some way by these women.

Its very sad when you consider the many wonderful nuns and sisters who have kept the faith. They often get painted with the same brush.

In case anyone is not aware, there is another organization of superiors of women religious in America, the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR).

Among their stated goals:
  • to establish collaboration among major superiors who desire it,
  • to serve as a channel of communication among major superiors,
  • to provide a forum for participation, dialogue, and education on the patrimony of the Church’s teaching on religious life,
  • to promote unity among major superiors, thus testifying to their union with the Magisterium and their love for Christ’s Vicar on earth, and,
  • to coordinate active cooperation with the USCCB.
With everything that has gone on with the LCWR and their affiliates, it is nice to remember that there is an organization of women religious out there dedicated to being faithful to the Magesterium and the Holy Father.

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=35848

This article, which I posted before the thread merger does a nice job of discussing the current situation between the CDF and the LCWR.
regnumnovum.com/2012/04/18/lets-be-sober-about-the-lcwr-assessment/

Peace,
That’s a pretty good article, Jason. On the whole, well-balanced and truthful.

There’s a lot of “piling on” going on around the internet and it’s kind of unfair in a way. I mean, everyone has an opinion about what religious are supposed to be doing, but some of it is just over the top–deluded and downright mean-spirited. And much of it is just so …ignorant and badly informed.

I’m not a fan of the LCWR. I consider myself a fairly mainstream sort of person, but all this name-calling and schadenfreude is just ugly this week.
 
There’s a lot of “piling on” going on around the internet and it’s kind of unfair in a way. I mean, everyone has an opinion about what religious are supposed to be doing, but some of it is just over the top–deluded and downright mean-spirited. And much of it is just so …ignorant and badly informed.

I’m not a fan of the LCWR. I consider myself a fairly mainstream sort of person, but all this name-calling and schadenfreude is just ugly this week.
While I am sure that within the organizations who are represented by LCWR there are many wonderful and faithful sisters, there are also way too many who appear not to be.

Regarding the emotion of some person’s response to this latest news, I think there are many people who have been hurt by this situation. How many parents entrusted the religious educated of their children to sisters who had all but abandoned the faith only to see their kids abandon their own a few years later? Its hard to say, but there have to be many who had Sister X tell their kids something very different then what they were trying to teach them at home. How many adults came to the Church looking for the authentic faith and, after getting into an RCIA program found some watered down version of it, if not outright wrong doctrine? Again, it is hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint a number, but there have to be many who walked away or ended up leaving the faith later on down the road because Catholicism is not what they thought it was going to be. How many children could have been protected if organizations like LCRW had not given the impression of Catholic acceptance to pro abortion politicians? Again, its hard to say, but there have to be many who could have been protected, perhaps not through an outright ban, but through enactment of ultrasound laws, banning late term abortions, etc.

With that in mind, I can understand the sentiments many are expressing.

I am not suggesting that these women are to blame for everything, far from it. But, it is also obvious that they have contributed significantly to our present state of affairs.

Peace,
 
While I am sure that within the organizations who are represented by LCWR there are many wonderful and faithful sisters, there are also way too many who appear not to be.

Regarding the emotion of some person’s response to this latest news, I think there are many people who have been hurt by this situation. How many parents entrusted the religious educated of their children to sisters who had all but abandoned the faith only to see their kids abandon their own a few years later? Its hard to say, but there have to be many. How many adults came to the Church looking for the authentic faith and, after getting into an RCIA program found some watered down version of it, if not outright wrong doctrine? Again, it is hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint a number, but there have to be many. How many children could have been protected if organizations like LCRW had not given the impression of Catholic acceptance to pro abortion politicians? Again, its hard to say, but there have to be many.

With that in mind, I can understand the sentiments to some extent.

I am not suggesting that these women are to blame for everything, far from it. But, it is also obvious that they have contributed significantly to our present state of affairs.

Peace,
As with many of these things that are going on, there’s a long history that many people haven’t taken the time to study, behind all this. The things that set this train of events into motion started a long time ago. And there’s plenty of blame to go around.

Now, I’m not defending the crazier stuff I’ve seen, far from it. Some of it is just incomprehensible-looking from a Catholic point of view. But trust me, there is a history behind it and it’s not all as lop-sided as it looks. Like I say, there’s plenty of blame to go around.
 
Jason,
Have you ever read the story of Carl Rogers and the IHM nuns in California after Vatican II?
 
I’ve heard a bit about it but not actually read it. Is it worth the time?
Yes, because it gives you part of the story. This is the rest in a nutshell.

In the 17th-19th centuries there were many congregations of sisters formed specifically to teach in particular schools, staff certain hospitals or even to live in particular places. However, they were apostolic, meaning that their work was their reason for being. We’ve talked about this to some extent in our conversations about religious orders and so on elsewhere in this forum.

Anyway, these sisters were sorely needed among the burgeoning poor of the industrial revolution and immigrant cities and all that. These congregations were set up with constitutions, but often no rule, and sometimes they didn’t have foundresses or their foundresses were replaced with others; sometimes they were founded by non-religious and so on. The point of the congregation was the work. Period. They were often even explicit about this. They were teaching or nursing orders.

Now what this set up was a situation where a charism could be no more than a set of lines in a constitution or a custom, like how to turn the corner in a hallway, or how to put on a wimple or how to ask permission to use a pencil which was actually required in some of these congregations. Many sisters taught large groups of children with little more than a high school education or whatever they had entered with. Some of them taught religion with no more training than their own childhood training. This was pre-Vatican II.

Their appearance was allowed to return to a sort of semi-monastic form, because it encouraged respect by the laity and made it easier to do the things they needed to do, such as support themselves. The same thing with some of the practices they adopted and so on. They encouraged vocations, edified the laity and helped the sisters cope, giving them some sort of religious life, although perhaps not the profound training that a Dominican contemplative nun or a Poor Clare sister might expect from her formation.

So, to make a long story short, when Vatican II ordered that the congregations, orders, institutes and all go back to their sources and founders, and concentrate on what they were founded to be, members of these orders were confounded. They had very little, if anything, to go back to. Their apostolates closed; their habits gone; their practices curtailed overnight. And no profound theology or charism like the Benedictines or the Franciscans.

Into the picture strides Dr. Carl Rogers in the IHM example, but variations of this happened to congregations all over. He tried to help them discover who they were, from a transactional analysis viewpoint, using interpersonal encounter methods. And you can about guess what the result was.

To be honest, Dr. Rogers didn’t realize what was going to happen. The 60s & 70s were that hapless and clueless. I know I was there. In fact, he was a Catholic and thought that he was helping them. Well, he helped them all right. Right out of the Church.

Likewise Vatican II. To cause all this turmoil and hurt anyone was not the intention of Vatican II. At all. At all. But people were not prepared for it. And the congregations had not done their work in setting themselves up soundly enough to withstand the future.

Of course, the ancient & medieval orders and other groups that had solid rules, supporting theology and great founders, were nowhere near as affected. You’ll find that most of the real mischief that you’ve heard about wasn’t among them but among the congregations. Not a surprise.

In the years since all this, the remaining sisters have become more sophisticated. Their apostolates are gone. The ones that are young enough serve as administrators, and yes, staff things like the LCWR, CHA and so on. Some of them have left the church without leaving the order because they literally have nowhere else to go. The order has been their home since the age of 18 and all their friends are there. Everything is there.

See the picture?

Now not all sisters have gone this way. In fact, there are many sisters who you never see who are much more faithful. Some are older and spend all their time in the motherhouses. If you go and walk through one at mealtime, you will see many sisters in habit and partial habit but they are often very old. I’ve seen some of this personally. So blanket statements are kind of cruel at this late stage. It’s a sad situation all the way around.

Read the story of Carl Rogers and the IHMs. It’s enlightening. You can find it online in several places.
 
This is why all this schadenfreude and blanket blaming is bothering me this week. I think many lay Catholics idealize their memories and don’t really know, or maybe even care to know, what really happened. It’s very sad.

And yes, the LCWR needs to be curtailed in its weird excesses. No question there. I also think that some of the congregations probably need to be put on a much shorter leash as far as approval and supervision goes. Some people need to simply be given pensions and allowed to live quietly and anonymously in their old age. They’ve served for years and it’s time.

But the tromping on people for the sheer joy of wanting to see young women in semi-monastic dress again is not necessary or appropriate. Nor is the desire to have someone teach your children for next to nothing, as used to be the norm in Catholic schools.
 
I knew the first part of that, but not the latter half. Thanks for sharing it, I will look it up and get acquainted with the rest of the story.
 
But the tromping on people for the sheer joy of wanting to see young women in semi-monastic dress again is not necessary or appropriate. Nor is the desire to have someone teach your children for next to nothing, as used to be the norm in Catholic schools.
I don’t think that is it at all. Many parents in recent years have paid big dollars to the point of putting themselves in debt to have their children educated in a Catholic school only to find out later down the road that things were not really all that Catholic in practice. I also don’t think that people, most of them anyway, are for forcing consecrated religious to violate the desires of their founders by putting them in a habit when they are not supposed to be. I think they do expect them to be faithful to the church and to fulfill their vows to the best of their ability.
 
Yes, because it gives you part of the story. This is the rest in a nutshell.

In the 17th-19th centuries there were many congregations of sisters formed specifically to teach in particular schools, staff certain hospitals or even to live in particular places. However, they were apostolic, meaning that their work was their reason for being. We’ve talked about this to some extent in our conversations about religious orders and so on elsewhere in this forum.

Anyway, these sisters were sorely needed among the burgeoning poor of the industrial revolution and immigrant cities and all that. These congregations were set up with constitutions, but often no rule, and sometimes they didn’t have foundresses or their foundresses were replaced with others; sometimes they were founded by non-religious and so on. The point of the congregation was the work. Period. They were often even explicit about this. They were teaching or nursing orders.

Now what this set up was a situation where a charism could be no more than a set of lines in a constitution or a custom, like how to turn the corner in a hallway, or how to put on a wimple or how to ask permission to use a pencil which was actually required in some of these congregations. Many sisters taught large groups of children with little more than a high school education or whatever they had entered with. Some of them taught religion with no more training than their own childhood training. This was pre-Vatican II.

Their appearance was allowed to return to a sort of semi-monastic form, because it encouraged respect by the laity and made it easier to do the things they needed to do, such as support themselves. The same thing with some of the practices they adopted and so on. They encouraged vocations, edified the laity and helped the sisters cope, giving them some sort of religious life, although not the profound training that a Dominican contemplative nun or a Poor Clare sister might expect from her formation.

So, to make a long story short, when Vatican II ordered that the congregations, orders, institutes and all go back to their sources and founders, and concentrate on what they were founded to be, members of these orders were confounded. They had very little, if anything, to go back to. Their apostolates closed; their habits gone; their practices curtailed overnight. And no profound theology or charism like the Benedictines or the Franciscans.

Into the picture strides Dr. Carl Rogers in the IHM example, but variations of this happened to congregations all over. He tried to help them discover who they were, from a transactional analysis viewpoint, using interpersonal encounter methods. And you can about guess what the result was.

To be honest, Dr. Rogers didn’t realize what was going to happen. The 60s & 70s were that hapless and clueless. I know I was there. In fact, he was a Catholic and thought that he was helping them. Well, he helped them all right. Right out of the Church.

Likewise Vatican II. To cause all this turmoil and hurt anyone was not the intention of Vatican II. At all. At all. But people were not prepared for it. And the congregations had not done their work in setting themselves up soundly enough to withstand the future.

Of course, the ancient & medieval orders and other groups that had solid rules, supporting theology and great founders, were nowhere near as affected. You’ll find that most of the real mischief that you’ve heard about wasn’t among them but among the congregations. Not a surprise.

In the years since all this, the remaining sisters have become more sophisticated. Their apostolates are gone. The ones that are young enough serve as administrators, and yes, staff things like the LCWR, CHA and so on. Some of them have left the church without leaving the order because they literally have nowhere else to go. The order has been their home since the age of 18 and all their friends are there. Everything is there.

See the picture?

Now not all sisters have gone this way. In fact, there are many sisters who you never see who are much more faithful. Some are older and spend all their time in the motherhouses. If you go and walk through one at mealtime, you will see many sisters in habit and partial habit but they are often very old. I’ve seen some of this personally. So blanket statements are kind of cruel at this late stage. It’s a sad situation all the way around.

Read the story of Carl Rogers and the IHMs. It’s enlightening. You can find it online in several places.
 
I don’t think that is it at all. Many parents in recent years have paid big dollars to the point of putting themselves in debt to have their children educated in a Catholic school only to find out later down the road that things were not really all that Catholic in practice. I also don’t think that people, most of them anyway, are for forcing consecrated religious to violate the desires of their founders by putting them in a habit when they are not supposed to be. I think they do expect them to be faithful to the church and to fulfill their vows to the best of their ability.
I can fully understand why parents might get upset when children aren’t taught the faith in Catholic schools. I used to work in a Catholic school though, and can assure you that the problem was a lay teacher, not a sister, because we only had one aging sister in the whole school, a Dominican who taught math. For the last 20 years, lay teachers for K-12 religion, with occasional visits by clergy, has been the rule, NOT the exception.

Also I wonder how many of the people in here would balk at the idea of sisters adopting the dress appropriate to their congregations really. Some congregations were originally founded not to have medieval dress. I believe that the sisters that Mother Cabrini founded don’t wear a distinctive habit. There are other similar congregations too. In fact their dress looks pretty normal on the street, even today. How do lay people feel about that? I’m not hearing that this is okay with them, to be perfectly honest.

Here’s a surprise for you. Mother Teresa’s nuns wear a sari which is regular street clothes where they come from, albeit uniform in color probably for identification and thrift purposes. It only looks like a habit to us because we’re not used to saris. I believe that Br JR has said that there are men in the congregation and they don’t have a distinctive habit at all.
 
I heard on NPR this afternoon an interview with Sister Simone Campbell, SSS, the Executive Director of NETWORK concerning the Vaticans move. This is a report from her statement. It is copied directly from the NPR Website.

by Eyder Peralta

“Quite frankly, it’s very visceral. It’s like a sock in the stomach.”

That’s what Sister Simone Campbell, the executive director of Network, a Catholic social justice lobby, said when NPR’s Melissa Block asked her what her reaction was to a Vatican reprimand issued yesterday.

As we reported, the Vatican is cracking down on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which represents most nuns in the United States, for straying from church doctrine. In an eight-page report, the Vatican called out Campbell’s group by name hinting that its support of the Obama administration’s healthcare overhaul ran afoul the church’s preference.
.
“The idea that Women Religious in the United States is not being faithful to the Gospel is just shocking,” Campbell told Melissa. "The fact is that our lives are committed through these vows to living the gospel and while we have amazing richness in the spiritual life, we give up a lot to do this.

“And it’s not about the giving up but it’s about the fidelity to the call to be faithful to the Gospel and have that so unseen and to have this edict never mention the Gospel, never mention the responsibility to be God’s arms and hands with people who are poor and suffering, the people at the fringes, people who suffer injustice, to have that not at all seen is extremely painful.”

Campbell added that she wished she knew “what was in [the Vatican’s] mind.” But she surmised that what was happening is that the “leadership doesn’t know how to deal with strong women and so their way is to try and shape us into whatever they think we should be.”

Campbell said it was a “struggle of culture.” And that it could also be that the Vatican is used to a monarchy and nuns in the United States are living in a democracy.

“When you don’t work everyday with people who live at the margins of our society, it’s so much easier to make easy statements about who’s right and who’s wrong,” Campbell said. “Life is way more complicated in our society and it’s probably way easier to be 8,000 miles away in Rome.”

Still, Campbell said, she was hopeful that the Vatican and the American nuns could come to an agreement.

“This won’t tear us apart,” she said. "It makes us mad; it makes us upset. It may makes us wonder about where on God’s green earth all this is going and why in God’s green earth might this be necessary but we’re faithful

One of the more shocking things that was onitted from this report was that Sister said that The men just don’t get it. They never did. Remember the womane went to the tomb and told the men. They didn’t get it. The women did. The women still do. The men don’t and we willl have to show them.

www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/

You can listen to the entire thing at the link I posted.

Fascinating stuff.
 
Here’s a copy of the story. I believe this is a pretty good account. William Coulson was one of Carl Rogers’ disciples and co-workers and he is the one who was in charge of the project with the IHM sisters, I believe.

ewtn.com/library/PRIESTS/COULSON.TXT

He also worked with about 2 dozen other congregations.
 
I heard on NPR this afternoon an interview with Sister Simone Campbell, SSS, the Executive Director of NETWORK concerning the Vaticans move. This is a report from her statement. It is copied directly from the NPR Website.

by Eyder Peralta

“Quite frankly, it’s very visceral. It’s like a sock in the stomach.”

…clip…

www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/

You can listen to the entire thing at the link I posted.

Fascinating stuff.
Yes, this goes along with what I posted before. Leadership councils of women’s congregations often have different interpretations of what’s Catholic, or even Christian (aka the Gospel) than the rest of the Church, and have been self-confirmed in that by their own beliefs over time and their interpretation of their experiences. It’s a real problem.

Many of these sisters aren’t very well immersed in classical Christianity because they don’t have a rule, a great theological tradition, or a great founder that encourages this. And face it, many of them aren’t really scholars of religion, even though they are vowed religious. They’re going on what they have and how they have interpreted what they have, and sometimes, as you can see by the stuff said at LCWR conferences, it’s kind of odd. And sometimes even downright weird.

It’s a sad situation all the way around. Throwing rotten tomatoes at anybody is probably not going to help though. The best thing is to wait and see what happens and what the Holy See does next. We laypeople are merely observers on this one.
 
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