Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[jwinch2]

That’s not to say that there might not be some broader statements made in the future. The expectation, by many, from the visitation process was that the Vatican would be looking at the individual orders and congregations to ensure that they were still maintaining their Catholic identiy. But that hasn’t happened yet.

Agreed. These are two separate, albeit related, events. The review of the LCWR and the subsequent report is a separate function from the Apostolic Visitation of women religious institutes in America. It will be very interesting to see the report from the Visitation when it becomes available.

Unfortunately, there was a good deal of resistance towards the Apostolic Visitation when it was taken place on the part of several communities with some going to far as to urge communities not to cooperate with the review, to answer the surveys, or invite the visiters to their community. As such, it seems obvious that there are problems at the level of the individual institute that are not just manifested in the LCWR.

A wholesale renewal in the life of women’s religious institutes in America is needed. Thankfully, we are already seeing the beginnings of exactly that.

 

[LisaA]

Thank you for your kind reply.

Maybe the use of the word desperation conjured up for you the image of a woman who doesn’t want an abortion but does it anyway. What I meant was that (many not all) women have abortions, whether they feel guilty about it or not, because they don’t see another way. Desperation in my mind is when someone feels trapped with no way out. This can be because of domestic violence, lack of health care, lack of education, financial difficulties and so on.

Here are a few figures for you to ponder.

“After so many plans and expectations, an unanticipated pregnancy can seem like your life is over… The powerlessness you feel now is not who you know yourself to be. There are so many unanswered questions, so many seeming impossibilities.” - The Sisters of Life Website for Pregnant Women who need help. They adress the desperation felt by women with an unwanted pregnancy.

“Women living below the federal poverty line abort at a higher rate than women living above the poverty line. The Guttmacher Institute reports that a single woman below the poverty line (having an annual income of about $11,000) is** four times more likely to abort **than a woman making at least $30,000 per year.”

Read more: Abortion Facts - Abortion Facts whyprolife.com/abortion-facts/#ixzz222PK9c00

“Tragically, each year over one million unborn children never see the day of their birth. Too many women wrongly believe abortion is their only alternative. Studies have shown that for approximately three out of four women who have an abortion, the belief that they **cannot afford a child **was one of the key reasons. Many pregnant women, particularly young women, need better access to information and resources so they may be encouraged to choose life and have a healthy pregnancy and healthy baby.
An important step toward supporting pregnant women is to help them overcome poverty.” - United States Conference of Catholic Bishops Department of Justice, Peace and Human Development Office of Domestic Social Development, Pregnant Women Support Act, 2009

The above are examples of desperation that I was referring to - when women feel that they have no other choice. Whether they feel guilty or not about their decision, many times they feel trapped with no way out. That is the desperation I was speaking of. Just because they were contracepting before doesn’t mean that they weren’t afraid, scared and trapped once they found out they were pregnant and maybe they did calmly call the clinic to schedule their abortion - but often they see no other way.

Obviously I can’t disagree with anything above, only to point out that as we allow secular influences, media and organizations to take control, the results are opposed to the choice of life. Our president, one of the most militant, pro abortion individuals of all time commented he didn’t want his girls “punished” with a baby. When that is the pervasive attitude we have a huge struggle to change the tone of the discussion.

Be aware that there are millions of dollars in providing abortion and PP and its ilk need to be understood for what they are, a money making monstrosity that fights tooth and nail against the very education you, the Bishops and all of us in support of life must fight. If women think abortion is their only option, who do you think told them that? If women hear that they are simply removing a blob of tissue, who do you think told them that? The abortion lobby FIGHTS against education, adoption or other pro life counselling, against ultrasounds.

The sad truth is that abortion has become so cheap, so accessable, so antiseptic and clinical that it’s not the last resort but the first. The women who ‘can’t afford a baby’ either don’t want to be inconvenienced or are unaware of the available support for either adoption or keeping the child.

The real key of course is to AVOID poverty not cure it since that will never ever happen. In this country the vast majority of poverty is self inflicted. We need to get to young people a lot earlier and with a far different message than the secular: if it feels good do it…

Lisa

 

[KSU]

Per Elizabeth502: “The Church is One; it’s not a collection of independent contractors each with a different version of Church teaching. When you represent an institution (even a secular institution), you are not independent of the message & mission of that institution…”

Very well said, Elizabeth.

---

LisaA, I’ll say it again; it’s people like you that help to keep faith strong. Despite her enemies’ seeming advances, the workings of the Holy Spirit are always evident.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Your comments on the sisters working for social justice in contrast to education are a little skewed. First, education, in my own opinion as a sister in a community dedicated to Catholic education who teaches in a Catholic school, is an issue of social justice in and of itself. It is a structure that can, for better or worse, transform society. Education, or the lack of education, can oppress people or free them.

Since I’m an educator, you probably don’t need to lecture me on the value of education relative to liberation, empowerment, and justice, especially since I have sacrificed much to provide those, which is not to my credit, but to God’s, since it is my Vocation.

So let’s say I’m a pastor with no money and I’m paying for this convent plus the work the sisters do. I realize that I can hire a lay person for a little more money and rent this convent to someone who will pay rent and save my budget. So the sisters lose a school. Most communities who were always teachers and now have left school have left because there aren’t any jobs for them. It’s cheaper to hire lay teachers and principals sometimes.

But not always. And the larger point is, the Orders who have indeed abandoned their original teaching mission do not state $ as the reason. They state a “Been there/Done that/We’re So Over That” reason. Now, if they are aged, without energy, or if they are burnt out (as many lay & secular teachers become!), then yes, it is time for those particular sisters to do something else which is nevertheless in the charism/spirit/mission of their particular Order. I haven’t argued that. Rather, there’s been a sea-change of whole Orders and Congregations to completely different missions, based on what they supposedly judge “the Church needs.” The Church needs religious witnesses in its schools, big time. No one can do that as well as someone in religious life. Others can provide excellent academic training, but the spiritual witness in its fullness and its important visible symbolism cannot be done as comprehensively and convincingly by lay teachers/mentors.

In religious life we say that every community has its own unique charism (gift of the holy spirit for the building up of the Church), spirituality (way in which they relate to God in prayer), and apostolate (work they do). …my point is that you cannot expect everyone to be the same.

I haven’t disagreed with that, either. Straw man.

The thing is that I truly believe that through my ministry of teaching I am being prolife because my students won’t stay poor, they won’t make poor decisions, they have a life to aim towards because of the education I am giving them. Hopefully because of the education they have received they will know God’s love for them and be dedicated to pulling themselves out of the poverty and violence that surround them.

I fully believe that you are sincere in your belief. I just think, based on my own experience, that this is naive. In this country, education per se has not been shown to make a difference in abortion statistics among the poor.

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation. Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another. We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

Again, I am convinced that you are sincere. I just think your view is unrealistic, because there is more at play in the decision to get an abortion. First of all, the conception tends to occur long before that education is complete enough to raise the economic level of the mother in question. They were poor and uneducated before the conception, just as poor and just as uneducated afterward.

While there is definitely a problem when people are teaching against the truths the church holds, there is nothing immoral or wrong about disagreeing on the HOW of working for the Gospel and the Church and the truth. You might think A is a better way while I see B as a better way and usually the answer is that God needs us to do both. The Church is diverse and we need one another to be different!

Can you show us where the Vatican has not supported the different approaches to the same (true!) goals, when such goals are not being compromised by inauthentic teaching? Have I suggested that varied approaches constitute a doctrinal problem? (No. ) In fact, I have vigorously argued on this forum for very different approaches to the problem of abortion than have currently been tried, or are currently “mainstream.” And respectfully, I have not seen any congregation, community, or Order take on such novel approaches. I do not consider academic education in itself an effective strategy against abortion.

 

[SrMarie]

Since I’m an educator, you probably don’t need to lecture me on the value of education relative to liberation, empowerment, and justice, especially since I have sacrificed much to provide those, which is not to my credit, but to God’s, since it is my Vocation.

But not always. And the larger point is, the Orders who have indeed abandoned their original teaching mission do not state $ as the reason. They state a “Been there/Done that/We’re So Over That” reason. Now, if they are aged, without energy, or if they are burnt out (as many lay & secular teachers become!), then yes, it is time for those particular sisters to do something else which is nevertheless in the charism/spirit/mission of their particular Order. I haven’t argued that. Rather, there’s been a sea-change of whole Orders and Congregations to completely different missions, based on what they supposedly judge “the Church needs.” The Church needs religious witnesses in its schools, big time. No one can do that as well as someone in religious life. Others can provide excellent academic training, but the spiritual witness in its fullness and its important visible symbolism cannot be done as comprehensively and convincingly by lay teachers/mentors.

I haven’t disagreed with that, either. Straw man.

I fully believe that you are sincere in your belief. I just think, based on my own experience, that this is naive. In this country, education per se has not been shown to make a difference in abortion statistics among the poor.

Again, I am convinced that you are sincere. I just think your view is unrealistic, because there is more at play in the decision to get an abortion. First of all, the conception tends to occur long before that education is complete enough to raise the economic level of the mother in question. They were poor and uneducated before the conception, just as poor and just as uneducated afterward.

Can you show us where the Vatican has not supported the different approaches to the same (true!) goals, when such goals are not being compromised by inauthentic teaching? Have I suggested that varied approaches constitute a doctrinal problem? (No. ) In fact, I have vigorously argued on this forum for very different approaches to the problem of abortion than have currently been tried, or are currently “mainstream.” And respectfully, I have not seen any congregation, community, or Order take on such novel approaches. I do not consider academic education in itself an effective strategy against abortion.

Dear Elizabeth,

My comments were not meant as a debate but as information. I am sorry if I came I sounded like I was arguing but since you are speaking about my way of life I think I have more authority on the topic than you do. I was not attacking you but trying to clarify some points that were incorrect in your comment. As a religious sister, I do know more about religious life than you do and I know more about teaching as a religious sister in a catholic school - because I do it. I never meant to insult you as a teacher I just wanted to share the knowledge I have of my vocation.

To use your own words, Since I’m a sister, you probably don’t need to lecture me on the value of education by religious sisters in the Catholic School System, especially since I have sacrificed much to provide that, which is not to my credit, but to God’s, since it is my Vocation.

I’m not going to address any of your other points because it is obvious you want to be right and that’s all so there’s no point. You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how misinformed it is.

God bless you.

 

[jwinch2]

The simple truth of the Church’s teaching on Social Doctrine is that there are areas such as this in which we are free to disagree. As long as one believes in preventing abortion and in helping the poor, there are legitimate disagreements which can be had by fair minded people about how best to do that. Situations like poverty, abortion, education, etc. are so complete and intertwined that it is likely that we need a multifaceted approach to really combat them effectively. As such, communities which are working on these issues in a variety of ways seems appropriate to me.

My issue is not at all with communities which have not focused on pro-life and have instead focused on some other area of the Church’s social teachings. Its not for me or anyone else to tell them what their charism should be as long as it was approved by the Bishop if they are diocesan right or the Holy See if they are Pontifical Right. Rather, it is with communities which have taught against the Church, abandoned their charism (there is an article earlier in the thread about a community founded to do perpetual Eucharistic adoration that now has abandoned that to fight for environmental issues), and who question settled doctrine within the Church (male only priesthood, etc.). In response to some groups not focusing on pro-life issues, we now see several groups cropping up which focus almost exclusively on them as their apostolate. Does that make them wrong because they are not focusing on other important social issues? No, of course not. It is the charism on which the community was founded and they should be true to it.

So, to sum up, as long as communities and individuals within them are faithful to the Magesterium as well as to the intent of their founder’s charism, everything else is good to go. What they wear, what their apostolate is, etc. is none of my concern. Its when those things do not happen that I get very concerned.

Peace,

 

[Elizabeth502]

Dear Elizabeth,

My comments were not meant as a debate but as information. I am sorry if I came I sounded like I was arguing but since you are speaking about my way of life I think I have more authority on the topic than you do. I was not attacking you but trying to clarify some points that were incorrect in your comment. As a religious sister, I do know more about religious life than you do and I know more about teaching as a religious sister in a catholic school - because I do it. I never meant to insult you as a teacher I just wanted to share the knowledge I have of my vocation.

To use your own words, Since I’m a sister, you probably don’t need to lecture me on the value of education by religious sisters in the Catholic School System, especially since I have sacrificed much to provide that, which is not to my credit, but to God’s, since it is my Vocation.

Sister, I am addressing the actual communications – and there have been many – on this very subject of changing the mission of an Order or congregation. The comments have been widely accessible and accessed by lay people. One doesn’t need to be a current member of a religious order to receive these messages accurately. I could bring up all kinds of quotes from current sisters, validating my comments here on the reasons they give (not reasons I’m imagining) for changing direction. There may be additional reasons which different Orders have, for changing their missions, but unfortunately those reasons have not been publicized. Rather, the “reasons” I stated are the ones publicized.

I’m not going to address any of your other points because it is obvious you want to be right and that’s all so there’s no point. You are entitled to your opinion regardless of how misinformed it is.

Well I think that was a completely unnecessary statement, on two counts: (1) I didn’t state that “I want to be right.” I’m stating, just as LisaA has, a difference of perspective & information regarding dealing with the issue of abortion. I find it not helpful to dismiss others who have different experiences than you have. We each come from limited experiences, and hopefully all would want to share cooperatively in the same goals, as opposed to shutting down a discussion or dismissing someone. (2) I don’t know what you mean by “misinformed.” If it’s regarding what the Orders and congregations themselves say about why they have changed direction, then perhaps they need to stop “misinforming” the public? That would help a lot. Then we wouldn’t go around stating our supposed “misinformation.” I get my information directly from those who wish to communicate information. If their information is exaggerated or false, it is their responsibility to correct, so that the Catholic laity will not be misinformed.

 

[SrMarie]

The simple truth of the Church’s teaching on Social Doctrine is that there are areas such as this in which we are free to disagree. As long as one believes in preventing abortion and in helping the poor, there are legitimate disagreements which can be had by fair minded people about how best to do that. Situations like poverty, abortion, education, etc. are so complete and intertwined that it is likely that we need a multifaceted approach to really combat them effectively. As such, communities which are working on these issues in a variety of ways seems appropriate to me.

My issue is not at all with communities which have not focused on pro-life and have instead focused on some other area of the Church’s social teachings. Its not for me or anyone else to tell them what their charism should be as long as it was approved by the Bishop if they are diocesan right or the Holy See if they are Pontifical Right. Rather, it is with communities which have taught against the Church, abandoned their charism (there is an article earlier in the thread about a community founded to do perpetual Eucharistic adoration that now has abandoned that to fight for environmental issues), and who question settled doctrine within the Church (male only priesthood, etc.). In response to some groups not focusing on pro-life issues, we now see several groups cropping up which focus almost exclusively on them as their apostolate. Does that make them wrong because they are not focusing on other important social issues? No, of course not. It is the charism on which the community was founded and they should be true to it.

So, to sum up, as long as communities and individuals within them are faithful to the Magesterium as well as to the intent of their founder’s charism, everything else is good to go. What they wear, what their apostolate is, etc. is none of my concern. Its when those things do not happen that I get very concerned.

Peace,

Thank you for such a level headed, respectful, and practical post. I agree 100%.

God bless

 

[jwinch2]

Thank you for such a level headed, respectful, and practical post. I agree 100%.

God bless

Thank you Sister,

If you haven’t already, I might suggest going back through this thread a bit. Several of the things Elizabeth has mentioned are not her opinion or hearsay, they are reflective of statements made and news reports on communities abandoning their apostolates and charism in favor of another one. The example I gave of a community which was founded for perpetual adoration is a true one, and there are several others.

Again on the pro-life thing versus the alleviation of poverty thing, both are important and I am not going to judge that. However, as I stated, I do have concerns when communities abandon what they were founded to do. I also have concerns, grave concerns when communities or umbrella organizations such as the LCWR start perpetuating heretical views of Catholic doctrine and in doing so lead people away from the Chair of Peter and the Church that Christ founded. In our town there is an openly pro-abortion sister who also happens to be the DRE at a local Catholic elementary school and high school. This is a problem, a big one. And, unfortunately, it is too common by far.

 

[Corki]

The simple truth of the Church’s teaching on Social Doctrine is that there are areas such as this in which we are free to disagree. As long as one believes in preventing abortion and in helping the poor, there are legitimate disagreements which can be had by fair minded people about how best to do that. Situations like poverty, abortion, education, etc. are so complete and intertwined that it is likely that we need a multifaceted approach to really combat them effectively. As such, communities which are working on these issues in a variety of ways seems appropriate to me.

Peace,

I think with abortion and other Right to Life issues, our obligation is beyond believing that abortion should be prevented and having different opinions on how to do it. A Catholic must believe that direct abortion is always a moral evil.

The problem we have is that our message is not always clear. Someone might read a statement like this:

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation. Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another. We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

and think that we are condoning or accepting those abortions that are sought by women in desperate situations.

Now, I don’t think that this is at all what Sister is saying. Sister clarified that in the rest of her post. But there are many prominent religious who say something like this and don’t go on to clarify that desperation is not any reason to accept abortion, that abortion is always wrong and the rest of the pro-life message. There are even more who allow themselves to be misquoted or only partially quoted by the media with the result that it begins to look like the issue of abortion (or ethanasia, or contraception, etc.) is a situational teaching of the Church.

The LCWR had this issue with women’s ordination. They put out a position paper that supported womens ordination. They should have known better but it was **before **Blessed Pope John Paul II issued ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS. Sister Farrell spoke about this in her NPR interview. According to her, the NCWR has not made any statements supporting womens ordination since JPIIs encyclical but neither did they retract it. That leaves the question hanging out there as to what they truly believe. Maybe it is intentional, maybe it is just naïveté. Either way, it leave room for confusion.

 

[jwinch2]

I think with abortion and other Right to Life issues, our obligation is beyond believing that abortion should be prevented and having different opinions on how to do it. A Catholic must believe that direct abortion is always a moral evil.

I agree which is why they must be prevented…

The problem we have is that our message is not always clear. Someone might read a statement like this:

and think that we are condoning or accepting those abortions that are sought by women in desperate situations.

I can’t see that link at all. Nothing that Sister wrote even comes close to acceptance or approval of murdering babies. The only way that statement can be interpreted to say what you suggest is if they simply did not read it.

Just like a medical doctors will often focus on treating symptoms, while a researcher looks into the biological root cause of the disease, and an epidemiologist seeks to understand macro-trends and lifestyle behaviors which may increase or decrease the likelihood of getting sigh to begin with; looking at the root causes and societal factors of what drives poor women to seek abortion, instead of bearing and raising the child herself or seeking a loving option such as adoption, seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to the tragic situation we are in.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Now, I don’t think that this is at all what Sister is saying. Sister clarified that in the rest of her post.

And I also don’t think that’s what Sister is saying, Corki, and thank you for pointing that out. It’s important to say. I think she is talking about multiple factors as well. I think, however, many people in the Church (lay and religious) can disagree about the best approaches, plural, to the abortion question. I have tried to do that over the years on CAF. Many other thoughtful contributors have done so, too, and I very much appreciate their (name removed by moderator)ut. I do not disagree that education is one important aspect; it is just not nearly sufficient, in my experience and in my wide reading of abortion statistics and the realities of who obtains them in this country, and why. I just want to make sure that discussion is not shut down. Thanks for contributing.

But there are many prominent religious who say something like this and don’t go on to clarify that desperation is not any reason to accept abortion, that abortion is always wrong and the rest of the pro-life message. There are even more who allow themselves to be misquoted or only partially quoted by the media with the result that it begins to look like the issue of abortion (or ethanasia, or contraception, etc.) is a situational teaching of the Church.

Undoubtedly. And that, i.m.o., is a significant problem. Perhaps some of those sisters are not as aware as they could be, about how much of a problem that is, and how that can affect public support , including we lay people who want so very much to support them.

The LCWR had this issue with women’s ordination. They put out a position paper that supported womens ordination. They should have known better but it was **before **Blessed Pope John Paul II issued ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS. Sister Farrell spoke about this in her NPR interview. According to her, the NCWR has not made any statements supporting womens ordination since JPIIs encyclical but neither did they retract it. That leaves the question hanging out there as to what they truly believe. Maybe it is intentional, maybe it is just naïveté. Either way, it leave room for confusion.

And thank you for pointing that out, as well. If it’s just a matter of confusion, as you say, then it’s something of urgency to correct that confusion.

Thank you, corki.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Thank you Sister,

If you haven’t already, I might suggest going back through this thread a bit. Several of the things Elizabeth has mentioned are not her opinion or hearsay, they are reflective of statements made and news reports on communities abandoning their apostolates and charism in favor of another one. The example I gave of a community which was founded for perpetual adoration is a true one, and there are several others.

Thank you for restoring my credibility, Jason , but more than that – for adding to the discussion as thoughtfully as you have.

I do have concerns when communities abandon what they were founded to do.

And so does much of the laity, and the Vatican itself, with good cause imho. Most of that concern is based on the demonstrated positive charisms which these communities have witnessed to both the Christian and non-Christian world. I think it is unfortunately often misunderstood (by some, not all!) members of some religious communities that such concerns on the part of lay & clergy is about control, when it’s hardly that! It’s that we have experienced and so revered and relished what we have received, and what our children have received, that we want these communities liberated and empowered to continue to do what only they can do so well.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful comments which ring true for so many of us.

 

[jwinch2]

Thank you for restoring my credibility, Jason , but more than that – for adding to the discussion as thoughtfully as you have.

And so does much of the laity, and the Vatican itself, with good cause imho. Most of that concern is based on the demonstrated positive charisms which these communities have witnessed to both the Christian and non-Christian world. I think it is unfortunately often misunderstood (by some, not all!) members of some religious communities that such concerns on the part of lay & clergy is about control, when it’s hardly that! It’s that we have experienced and so revered and relished what we have received, and what our children have received, that we want these communities liberated and empowered to continue to do what only they can do so well.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful comments which ring true for so many of us.

Thanks Elizabeth, and Peace,

Jason

 

[KSU]

SrMarie, please forgive me if I’m wrong, but it SEEMS to me that your post #858 was meant as something of a defense of the LCWR/NETWORK. You have to agree from the ensuing comments that its purpose was not clear to everyone.

Are you asking us to not choose sides because “all of us need to realize that we don’t know the whole story of what is happening here”?

The Holy Father, the CDF and a few American bishops do know what is happening here and they don’t like it. Even old timers such as I know more than enough about what’s been going on for decades* on a wider scale. And what they and we don’t like has absolutely nothing to do with the well known fact that “every community has its own unique charism…spirituality…and apostolate.”

It also seems as though you are saying we shouldn’t necessarily agree with the Vatican’s view of the LCWR’s position on abortion vis-a-vis social justice, viz:
“While there is definitely a problem when people are teaching against the truths the Church holds, there is nothing immoral or wrong about disagreeing on the HOW of working for the Gospel and the Church and the truth.”

Again, please forgive me but, to me, the LCWR seems to echo Cardinal Bernardin’s “seamless garment” idea about abortion and social justice.​

• catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6537&CFID=139704270&CFTOKEN=90193515

 

[Corki]

I can’t see that link at all. Nothing that Sister wrote even comes close to acceptance or approval of murdering babies. The only way that statement can be interpreted to say what you suggest is if they simply did not read it.

But the only reason you can confidently come to that conclusion is because you read the quoted section in context and you read Sister’s other posts. Without that context, there were multiple conclusions one could draw from that small snippet.

 

[jwinch2]

But the only reason you can confidently come to that conclusion is because you read the quoted section in context and you read Sister’s other posts. Without that context, there were multiple conclusions one could draw from that small snippet.

Not at all. In fact, I did not even read her entire post the first time. Rather, I saw what you wrote in response to the quote your provided and then went back and looked at her entire statement in case there was something there which was not in the text you quoted.

Here again is the quote you took out of context :

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation. Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another. We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

Let’s look at each part individually.

First:

Women don’t typically get abortions because they think its a nice idea - its a choice of desperation.

This offers an explanation for why someone might chose such a horrific thing. Understanding behavior in no way implies support or justification.

Second:

Education is one way to pull people out of desperate situations. Social justice is another.

Sister then offers two approaches which she believes, reasonably in my opinion (though we may disagree on the manner in which social justice is applied), can lead to decreases in persons choosing to seek out an abortion.

Finally:

We won’t be able to count how many abortions are stopped because of social justice but I truly believe that combating poverty, working for justice are ways to keep people out of that situation to begin with.

She then ties things back to the beginning by referring to the original premise which was that people who feel desperate because of their particular situation are more likely to choose an abortion as a perceived “solution” and that while these methods may be difficult to quantify, that does not make them meaningless. Again, this in no way implies support, it acknowledges that one way to attack a problem is to attack the issues which surround it.

To suggest that one cannot determine what I determined above without placing the quote in context is false in my opinion. Either way, one should not be taking people out of context in the first place; and the charitable thing to do, particularly when dealing with someone who’s positions are unknown is to assume the best and if necessary ask for clarification.

 

[opus101]

SrMarie, please forgive me if I’m wrong, but it SEEMS to me that your post #858 was meant as something of a defense of the LCWR/NETWORK. You have to agree from the ensuing comments that its purpose was not clear to everyone.

Are you asking us to not choose sides because “all of us need to realize that we don’t know the whole story of what is happening here”?

The Holy Father, the CDF and a few American bishops do know what is happening here and they don’t like it. Even old timers such as I know more than enough about what’s been going on for decades* on a wider scale. And what they and we don’t like has absolutely nothing to do with the well known fact that “every community has its own unique charism…spirituality…and apostolate.”

It also seems as though you are saying we shouldn’t necessarily agree with the Vatican’s view of the LCWR’s position on abortion vis-a-vis social justice, viz:
“While there is definitely a problem when people are teaching against the truths the Church holds, there is nothing immoral or wrong about disagreeing on the HOW of working for the Gospel and the Church and the truth.”

Again, please forgive me but, to me, the LCWR seems to echo Cardinal Bernardin’s “seamless garment” idea about abortion and social justice.​

• catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6537&CFID=139704270&CFTOKEN=90193515

 

[Elizabeth502]

Continuing to appreciate the discussion, I nevertheless would like to point out that we should be careful not to interpret the absence of frequent repetition of doctrine as a signal that an entire community, or a member of a community, congregation, or Order has a soft position on the morality of abortion. And that includes even if certain members of some communities have been soft on the issue. Guilt by association is unfair, and hopefully we can all see that.

Many priests, for example, active in pro-life efforts, maintain a pastoral approach to this immoral problem. They also focus on the “desperation” issue. I think what was being discussed was a pastoral concern, rather than a diversion from authentic doctrine.

In any case, Catholics, lay and religious, are within their rights to differ regarding prudential judgment on the best approach(es), and to have those differences discussed.

JMO. You may not agree, but thanks for listening respectfully.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Nuns Weigh Response to Scathing Vatican Rebuke

American nuns are preparing to assemble in St. Louis next week for a pivotal meeting at which they will try to decide how to respond to a scathing critique of their doctrinal loyalty

issued this spring by the Vatican — a report that has prompted Roman Catholics across the country to rally to the nuns’ defines.

The nuns will be weighing whether to cooperate with the three bishops appointed by the Vatican to supervise the overhaul of their organization, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which represents about 80 percent of women’s Catholic religious orders in the United States

The Leadership Conference says it is considering at least six options that range from submitting graciously to the takeover to forming a new organization independent of Vatican control, as well other possible courses of action that lie between those poles

What is in essence a power struggle between the nuns and the church’s hierarchy had been building for decades, church scholars say. At issue are questions of obedience and autonomy, what it means to be a faithful Catholic and different understandings of the Second Vatican Council

nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/us-nuns-weigh-response-to-scathing-vatican-critique.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

LCWR and Obedience

catholicbandita.com/lcwr-and-obedience