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KSU
Guest
Wake up people!
“I know thy works: that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold, or hot; but because thou art lukewarm and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.”
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“I know thy works: that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold, or hot; but because thou art lukewarm and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.”
J
jwinch2
Guest
Just a quick reminder to everyone that there are many branches of the Franciscan family of which the Order of Friars Minor is only one. Personally, I am unsure of how to interpret the statement released by the OFM regarding the situation with the LCWR. However, what I am sure of is that, regardless of how one interprets the statement, it would be improper to paint all of the many groups of Franciscans with the same brush.
In Christ,
In Christ,
M
mwic
Guest
Because events unfolded wherein it became a public conversation – for better or worse.
You have taken a side, and seemingly want to push the brothers into the other side. This is only how it seems to me.
K
KSU
Guest
“In early April 2012, the pope gave a stern pre-Easter homily at the Vatican, denouncing “disobedience” in the church… It also showed Benedict back in his element as a defender of orthodoxy, favoring a smaller church of more ardent believers over a larger community that resorts to watered-down doctrine.” NYT, July 20,2012
Perhaps it’s time.
Perhaps it’s time.
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LisaA
Guest
I remember his election and alll the horrified “progressives” complaining that a more enlightened sort had not been named Pope. Geez…we won’t see women priests, ABC or “reproductive rights” in the Church anytime soon! What an outrage…the Pope is Catholic!
Bless our Holy Father. My conversion had been that Easter and I remember the window opening and Pope Benedict appearing. I was totally overjoyed and continue to admire his strength in the face of so much evil and opposition.
Lisa
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KSU
Guest
It’s people like you that helps me to never lose hope, despite all the “non servium” we hear today.
J
jwinch2
Guest
I could not agree more. I see it as evidence of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He was the Pope we needed at the time and I believe he remains so today.
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Tigg
Guest
And in the interim faithful Catholics need to pray for protection and discernment in order to keep their own orthodoxy intact and not be led down the garden path by the myriad of heterodox books, opinions and misinformation being disseminated by those who have been warned to reconsider their personal doctrine.
E
Elizium23
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9386707&postcount=19
This was all hashed out in a dedicated thread that discussed only the Franciscan (OFM) letter and reactions to it. Brother JR adequately explained the motivations and true meaning behind it.
This was all hashed out in a dedicated thread that discussed only the Franciscan (OFM) letter and reactions to it. Brother JR adequately explained the motivations and true meaning behind it.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Thank you for the link
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KSU
Guest
Objectively speaking, Brother JR “adequately explained” nothing in the link you provided. His post was subjective and very disapointing.
Here in a nut shell is how most everyone else sees the Franciscan (OFM) letter:
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=14580
Fr. James Martin, S.J. :
"A statement from the seven Franciscan (OFM) Provinces in the United States in support of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious has been released. This is the first men’s religious order publicly declare their solidarity with the LCWR and also to critique the Vatican’s Doctrinal Assessment. To my mind, for the Franciscans to not only stand with the sisters but to call the Vatican’s approach “excessive” evidences a deep displeasure with the way that the reform of the sisters’ organization is proceeding. It is fathers and brothers coming to the defense of their sisters.
americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&entry_id=5171
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mwic
Guest
It appears that you view the letter as exhibiting heterodox, possibly satanic “rebellion” (otherwise why the “non servium” reference?") JR’s post(s) would obviously disappoint someone who had already arrived at that conclusion, but I don’t think you can claim to be speaking objectively there.
Her you speak on behalf of “most everyone else”, which I don’t think you can. Anyway, Martin’s view looks more like JR’s to me. “A deep displeasure with the way that the reform” is proceeding (emphasis added) does not amount to rebellion.
J
jwinch2
Guest
The Imagine Sisters movement. Looks very interesting. Mother Mary Assumpta Long, O.P is involved, so I would have to assume fidelity and orthodoxy. Based upon her writings, etc., I can’t see her being involved in anything which does not meet those standards.
www.imaginesisters.org
www.imaginesisters.org
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KSU
Guest
My friend, mwic, you are entitled to all the tortured logic you want concerning my opinion of the Franciscan (OFM) letter, but you are not entitled to put words in my mouth and then say I can’t claim to be speaking objectively. It is you who associated “non servium” with the letter; I never said that.
You likewise say I claim to be speaking on behalf of “‘most everyone else.’” No, I don’t, mwic. This is all I claim: After looking at published reactions to the letter from both orthodox and Liberal factions, I presented in my post #834 a typical reaction from each side, i.e., a general reaction which can properly be termed ‘most everyone else.’ I did so in order to allow Elizium23 to contrast the general reaction with the reaction of Brother JR. That required no bold or courageous effort on my part, BTW, because for the first time in memory both Left and Right were pretty much in accord; they see the letter as being for the LCWR and against the Vatican. No, the end times are not coming–it’s simply an indication of how amateurishly bad the letter is.
Finally, you say “Martin’s view [of the letter] looks more like JR’s to me. “‘A deep displeasure with the way that the reform’” is proceeding…”
I think that’s a disservice to Brother JR. He is after all a Franciscan, and apparently felt compelled to make an understandable but nonetheless subjective effort to explain away the plain, generally understood meaning of the letter. But, whatever the letter meant to convey to the public, the media and the Vatican, Brother’s post cannot be read as expressing solidarity with it. If you want to take away a certainty about Brother’s post it’s that the Provincial Ministers of the Order of Friars Minor of the Observance (OFM) acted “prematurely”. That is comparable to a smart lawyer’s way of saying to his client: Really!? Did you really have to write such a politically and spiritually tone-deaf letter which everybody, especially the anti-Catholic media, will read as an open attack on (at least) the Vatican?
On the other hand (and here is some actual subjectivity on my part), I read Fr. Martin’s mercifully short article as his doing hand stands of bliss–egging on courageous Fathers and brothers to come to the defense of their sisters. That most certainly is not what Brother JR was doing.
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KSU
Guest
Thanks, Jason.
And thanks for the The Imagine Sisters movement link. What a beautiful, orthodox movement it appears to be and almost certainly is. Isn’t it sad, though, thanks to the LCWR/NETWORK and their ilk in the clergy, that we can’t any longer just accept something as beautiful as that at face value and immediately assume it is 100% what it appears to be?
I understand why Balthasar said to Ben-Hur during the crucifixion, " I have lived too long."
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
It doesn’t take a genius to know that the LCWR is just plain wrong.
The people who can’t understand that are part of the problem.
It is a great thing that the Vatican is doing something about it.
The people who can’t understand that are part of the problem.
It is a great thing that the Vatican is doing something about it.
C
Captain_America
Guest
I really got a kick out of Lisa’s statement, above, “what a surprise, the Pope’s Catholic!”
Yeah, why not have Catholics stay Catholic?
I think the nuns organization is perhaps for the first time able to see the disconnect between their thinkings and church teachings.
I’m just a layman, but I’d like my Catholic church to be Catholic everywhere.
The old crocodile lying behind all this is the propaganda-notion that “the Catholic Church quashes intellectual inquiry”, a hoary old beast of a notion dating back to Protestant propaganda, etc., and which is part and parcel of a politically liberal view of the Church. It’s easy to sell any story to the media if you frame it this way, that the Church is oppressing strong, fearless, intellectually consciencious, progressive individuals.
The only kicker toward the nuns position is that they rightly note that the commission put too much strength on that one speaker’s talk about a Jesus-less future: the speaker was speculative nonsense, and not indicative of the organization’s view.
Yeah, why not have Catholics stay Catholic?
I think the nuns organization is perhaps for the first time able to see the disconnect between their thinkings and church teachings.
I’m just a layman, but I’d like my Catholic church to be Catholic everywhere.
The old crocodile lying behind all this is the propaganda-notion that “the Catholic Church quashes intellectual inquiry”, a hoary old beast of a notion dating back to Protestant propaganda, etc., and which is part and parcel of a politically liberal view of the Church. It’s easy to sell any story to the media if you frame it this way, that the Church is oppressing strong, fearless, intellectually consciencious, progressive individuals.
The only kicker toward the nuns position is that they rightly note that the commission put too much strength on that one speaker’s talk about a Jesus-less future: the speaker was speculative nonsense, and not indicative of the organization’s view.
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mwic
Guest
My apologies for that inference, then; all your other recent posts in this thread were about the letter so I assumed you were still addressing that.
Yes, the activistically-inclined like to have good guys and bad guys. Brother JR’s technical elucidation is bound to be lost on them
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